UK universities top world university rankings

[schmitt trigger]

I'm always weary of "best" lists. Best according to which criteria? How do you weigh the different criteria?

Anyways, for whatever this list is worth, published on the BBC.com today. No big surprises, all of the usual suspects are here.

Also..... from the US perspective, this is the first time I see the pair of California U's besting their Massachusetts counterparts.


    1: Oxford University
    2: Cambridge University
    3: California Institute of Technology
    3: Stanford University
    5: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
    6: Harvard University
    7: Princeton University
    8: Imperial College London
    9: University of Chicago
    10: ETH Zurich - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
    10: University of Pennsylvania
    12: Yale University
    13: Johns Hopkins University
    14: Columbia University
    15: University of California, Los Angeles
    16: University College London
    17: Duke University
    18: University of California, Berkeley
    19: Cornell University
    20: Northwestern University

[Fred27]

What subject though? I turned down a place to study electronics at Oxford because the University of Southampton looked to be a better course.

[coppice]

The top three in that list have been the top three in most of these best university lists in recent years. The rest are pretty much the same in most lists, but their order shuffles around.

[NivagSwerdna]

I think the order of the top two is the wrong way around. 

[schmitt trigger]

What subject though? I turned down a place to study electronics at Oxford because the University of Southampton looked to be a better course.

Agree,
Some Universities which didn't make the list, may have a particular field on which they are leaders.
But may be lagging in others.

[Rick Law]

The list's validity really depends on who is doing the ranking.  If it is academia ranking academia as most of the lists are, it would be akin to people in a mutual admiration society meeting deciding who is most admirable while ignoring how the outside world see them.

Where the rubber meet the road is what does the world think you are worth?  How much will they pay you to work there?

Included to the OP's original list is PayScale.com bachelors degree life-earning potential.  They rank only US colleges so non-USA colleges are prefixed with dashes below.

---    1: Oxford University
---    2: Cambridge University
  7    3: California Institute of Technology
 10    3: Stanford University
  3    5: Massachusetts Institute of Technology
  9    6: Harvard University
  2    7: Princeton University
---    8: Imperial College London
 70    9: University of Chicago
---    10: ETH Zurich - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology
 20    10: University of Pennsylvania
 25    12: Yale University
100    13: Johns Hopkins University
 43    14: Columbia University
 81    15: University of California, Los Angeles
---    16: University College London
 22    17: Duke University
 30    18: University of California, Berkeley
 49    19: Cornell University
 95    20: Northwestern University

You may think there is a mistake with Johns Hopkins but it is not.  Last year, they were ranked 92.  Having attending one of their (title reworded in my words) "why you should consider us" seminar, I would say that triple digits ranking is about right.  Unlike their "general population", those majoring in pre-med and bio/med have separate admission requirements at least last year.  So, it appears to me JHU's med/bio track is considerably stronger than the other schools at JHU.  And, MD's are not bachelor degrees.

In those "why you should consider us" seminars, I found MIT to be in a class of its own.  They consider their students as their products and they are keenly aware of their success or failure is judged purely by the consumers (employers) of their products (students).

To judge year to year variations, I use the military academies because some of their graduates' careers are well known. (Also because I know and worked with many academy grads).

 5 USMA (US Military Academy, aka West Point), last year 6
 6 USNA (US Naval Academy, aka Annapolis), last year 7
13 USAFA (US Air Force Academy), last year 8

So, if the market has a vote, their votes are rather different than the creator of the BBC's list!

Reference and for detail info on how payscale ranks their list:
http://www.payscale.com/college-salary-report/bachelors

[cdev]

Higher Education is becoming a multi billion dollar industry as top brands from around the world compete for the dollars/pounds/RMB/euros of parents.

[Kjelt]

Didn't expect this one but then I have not much knowledge about US education

7    3: California Institute of Technology
3    5: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

[tszaboo]

I like these arbitrary rating systems and criteria. They choose rating based on things, like student:faculty and citations per paper or proportion of international students(because diversity makes us smarter...). Its like a system made to impress people to pay a lot of money for this. No east european or chinese university will ever make it to the top 500 list. While you know, how much education costs where I'm from? Free, usually you get scholarship, so they pay you. And when it comes to actual knowledge given to students, i wonder why all those fancy ivy league students have problem to derivative a thing. You know, the stuff, which is high school level.
Once you realize the ranking system is bollocks, and you "dont even show up for the race"... You know... Imagine me hiring someone. They show up with their fancy diploma. All I see is how much money they spent on some inferior education. You must be really desperate or dumb to do that, right?

[Kjelt]

Not really, because the stupid companies/firms with tons of money like banks and other financial crook institutions hire those graduates and pay top $ for them in order to come up with yet another scheme to get money from hardworking people 
So it pays itself back in a few years.

[cdev]

The high cost of education has become an ever more "costly screen" that keeps the vast majority of talented people who want to enter technical fields out, or "forces them" - in their eyes, to enter other "less difficult" professions with more perceived lifetime earning potential. (a switch many may regret)

The price of college is so high in the US that by and large, 2/3 of an entire generation of talented people is not ever getting to go to "real" college. 

Contrast that to Europeans of the same age group, who may be unemployed or stuck in an uninteresting job and still living with parents - but at least they have a degree.

[bd139]

Not really, because the stupid companies/firms with tons of money like banks and other financial crook institutions hire those graduates and pay top $ for them in order to come up with yet another scheme to get money from hardworking people 
So it pays itself back in a few years.

One of the best technical guys I worked with in the financial crook sector was a convicted criminal (computer misuse) who they had recruited in Burger King car park after "beer and burger" lunch fell through because the beer was warm and they heard him complaining about shit code. His only qualification was a certificate from McDonalds. To be honest everyone starts at the bottom these days. Even the Oxford compsci grads turn up and we tell them they're getting entry salary. They huff and hiss at this like angry snakes. So Google hires them and puts them in a well padded cupboard as an SRE bitch so no one else gets their mucky hands on the cows to milk.

[Rick Law]

Didn't expect this one but then I have not much knowledge about US education

7    3: California Institute of Technology
3    5: Massachusetts Institute of Technology

My view is, once they are in top 10 and consistent, they are pretty much the same.  Year by year, the rating will go up and down +- 1 to 5.

I think Stanford University, Cal Tech, and Berkeley all had has a few former students who became IPO zillionaires.  So that will hold their reputation/rating for a while.  But, at least Stanford University and Cal Tech are still solid gold even while IPO's become rare.  Berkeley however is shooting itself in the foot by getting far too political and the physical destruction was far too visible.  Who wants to attend a school where masked mob throw burning things into glass doors.

Mizzou( U of Missouri) had some of those leftie protest caugh on camera.  Even while they eventually fired Professor Melissa Click, she was "a gift that keep on giving."

According to NY Times on the fall out:
...
Freshman enrollment at the Columbia campus, the system’s flagship, has fallen by more than 35 percent in the two years since.
...
Mizzou, was experiencing steady growth and building new dormitories. Now, with budget cuts due to lost tuition and a decline in state funding, the university is temporarily closing seven dormitories and cutting more than 400 positions, including those of some nontenured faculty members, through layoffs and by leaving open jobs unfilled.
...
"The general consensus was that it was because of the aftermath of what happened in November 2015” said Mun Choi, the new system president, referring to the climax of the demonstrations...

Quoted from: _{https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/university-of-missouri-enrollment-protests-fallout.html?mcubz=0}

[schmitt trigger]

Universities, at least mine, don't keep this a secret, that they jack money from rich international undergrad students to support graduate students, after all, the achievements of a university in academics are usually made by graduate students, but to support them, universities have to make milk and butter from undergraduate programs.

Exactly!

[Rick Law]

Universities, at least mine, don't keep this a secret, that they jack money from rich international undergrad students to support graduate students, after all, the achievements of a university in academics are usually made by graduate students, but to support them, universities have to make milk and butter from undergraduate programs.

Exactly!

Foreign student tuition is a big part of tuition funding but a much smaller part of overall University’s source of funds.

Since school year 2016 just ended, latest complete year is 2015 data.  They are from different sources so it doesn’t add up exactly.

According to Business Insider, foreign student tuition total $9 billion which is about 28% of total tuition.  So that means total tuition is around $32.1 billion.  According to 24/7 Wall Street, US Federal Government aid for low income student (Pell Grants) total $30.6 billion.  That almost covers total 2015 tuition at $32.1 billion.

The biggest number is research.  Again from 24/7 Wall Street, the Federal Government funded $68.8 billion on R&D in US research universities in 2015 - that is more than twice the total tuition.  Heck, just Johns Hopkins University (the top recipient) alone got $2 billion in 2015.  With 24000 total students, that is over $80,000 per student.

Regardless of whether foreign student is funding part, some, or most of the University costs, we can all agree it is a hell of a lot of money the universities are consuming.

The ones worst hit are the mid to upper middle income families.  These families have too much to get Federal Aid, but really too little to pay full-freight.  I know someone who is getting $500 (yes, five hundred dollar) total aid for four years.
- Average annual tuition (in-state) at $9,139/year;
- Average state university (in and out of state) is $22,958.
- Average private U tuition is at $31,231.
$125/year aid is kind of a little short of being enough.  So, mid/mid-upper families not belonging to current "favored groups" are having a hard time paying for kid's college.

Data sources:
_{http://www.businessinsider.com/foreign-students-pay-up-to-three-times-as-much-for-tuition-at-us-public-colleges-2016-9
http://247wallst.com/special-report/2017/03/22/universities-getting-the-most-money-from-the-federal-government/}

[cdev]

This isn't true . China has some very highly ranked universities. The problem for many Chinese is that they get one shot at it and it's very competitive.

Also, good public universities in the US are very competitive too. Its a similar situation.

Quote from: NANDBlog on Today at 02:35:38>I like these arbitrary rating systems and criteria. They choose rating based on things, like student:faculty and citations per paper or proportion of international students(because diversity makes us smarter...). Its like a system made to impress people to pay a lot of money for this. No east european or chinese university will ever make it to the top 500 list.

[cdev]

Many smart American students are going to Germany where they can go to college for free.

The US is shooting itself in the foot by depriving an entire generation of affordable means to go to college.

This defunding of public higher education and really potentially all formerly public services is being done because of the 1994 GATS agreement, I hope people realize this.

It really is the trade deal from hell. I am not kidding.

[Rick Law]

So, mid/mid-upper families not belonging to current "favored groups" are having a hard time paying for kid's college.

$10k tuition plus $1k fees, then adding $1000/mo living cost, that's $21k/yr.
If the student is in some kind of REU program or student dining hall employment or whatever, let's say they make $8/hr, 10hrs/wk, then that's $3k/yr based on 40wks/yr employment.
If the student does some summer intern or working, then based on $20/hr, 20hr/wk, 5wk/yr, that's another $2k.

Which is to say, the family only has to supply $16k/yr to send their child to college without any debt.
US median household income is $53k/yr, so if the family cuts some cost (say, they already have a house, and they minimize all living expense), then allowing $20k for basic living, they still can support 2 kids to go to college concurrently without having to save up.

Howdy BlueSkull...

Some area are more expensive than others.  $20K/yr in my area would not do much.  20K/yr would barely paid the rent for an apartment that would have enough room to have a kid!  A one bed room apartment in my area would be well over $1800/month and up.

You also have to factor in other fixed cost for this family with 2 kids.  A family will probably have a car, but getting that kid to college every morning would be difficult.  Say $20/week gasoline, you are looking at another $1K/year.  Car insurance is another $1K/year.  A family line phone would be another $1k/year.  So on, so on.  It seems that every time you turned around, there is another bill waiting.  Living costs money.

Oh, if that family makes $53k per year, after tax and all the misc charges by the states (such as forced unemployment insurance, forced disability insurance...), that family is lucky to have a take home paid of $45k.  At $53k per year, that family probably would not have income tax.  Federal Social Security, federal payroll tax, and those other State mandated fees/tax (such as unemployment) probably cannot be escaped - depending on State laws.

That family of 4 would be barely making ends meet at $53k/year even if college is free for the two kids.  That said, this family of 4 with $53k income would probably be loaded up with all kinds of State and Federal assistance from free meals to free phones.

[cdev]

Health insurance costs would be huge for a family of 4.  You are probably getting it through your university so you don't realize how expensive it is in the US.

A couple I know in their 50s a few years ago who had to buy on the individual market were paying almost $2500 a month a few years ago (2008) for what was really minimal coverage in their state. The yuuuge rate increases at age 40 and 50 would be hitting the average couple right around the same time as young uns need to go to college.

[cdev]

You're young and you live in a fairly cheap state. They weren't, and they lived in a city, but were relatively healthy. If either of them had any health issues, its yearly cost would have been more than what most Americans earn, according to you. Plus deductibles and co pays, and out of network costs if they went out of network, which often happens by accident.

Do you want proof thats what it cost? Because I've got it. And they had the cheapest "POS" insurance available. (that is really what its called)  And it was almost ten years ago, so, inflation.  OOP cost are probably much higher now, even if "premium" is priced deceptively low, watch out if you ever have to use it.

Just remember that when they say "average family" thats code word for "young and NO health problems at all, not even the most minimal ones".

[cdev]

They also lived in a state that had guaranteed issue for health insurance policies, one of the only states to do so. If the insurance companies could reject people for any health issue or famly history of medical conditions or past use of doctor, etc. and dump people with huge bills, as soon as they get sick, it would be cheaper. They love collecting free money for decades and then dumping people when they get some illness. After all, they are in the business to make a profit.