"Smart" TV.... New purchase!!

[james_s]

OLED looks fantastic, but plasma is still the most CRT-like and in some cases I think looks subjectively better. It certainly looks better for the same resolution, but OLED is generally much higher resolution and does have better blacks. The main disadvantage of plasma is that it's bulky, heavy and power hungry, and of course the susceptibility of screen burn mentioned which is shared with OLED. That wouldn't be such a big problem except that TV channels these days have those stupid logos in the corner, I remember seeing a lot of plasma TVs and before that CRT projection TVs with a channel logo burned into the corner. I wish they would outlaw those logos, not only does it damage expensive TVs but it ruins the content too, it's the single biggest reason why I dumped cable ~20 years ago right around the time every channel started having those.

[SilverSolder]

Adults apparently watch about 5h of TV per day, on average.  (US)

Haven't had a TV in the house for >20 years.  Time saved = about 4 years! 

[james_s]

Yeah that number is pretty nuts, I wonder if that's time sitting actively watching a show or just having it on? My dad has often had the TV on as background, drives me nuts, I don't like it on unless I'm sitting watching something. I probably average 30-60 minutes a day, we typically watch a show over dinner, all streaming from my collection.

[edy]

The average lifespan of today's TVs is getting shorter, when theoretically it should have been the same or longer. There is no consumer outcry because:

(1) people believe there are enough improvements year to year that when their old TV dies they feel good because the new TV is giving them upgraded features

(2) cost of new TVs has become so cheap that repair is not economically feasible

As a result, TVs have become like light bulbs... the more produced, the cheaper they get. As a result we have lost most manufacturers of screens. Expect this trend to continue and e-waste to accumulate.

My current main TV is a 59" Samsung plasma from 2012 dumped on the curb earlier this year by a neighbour which only needed a few power supply components to fix. It weighs a ton and heats up the room but image is beautiful. We watch a movie a couple times a week, but otherwise off as we are too busy during the week (and many other displays in the house like Google Nest Hub, phones, etc) satisfy our viewing needs.

The TV this one replaces is a 42" Samsung LCD we bought new in 2008 which died 3 years later and I subsequently fixed. It was still working and our main TV until I found this plasma. It's now in the basement. So it lasted at least 10 years and was still perfectly fine for family TV viewing. And I have a Sony 42" curb-side find LCD which is a beautiful set that I never used, just fixed, and is in the basement sometimes turned on to watch while exercising. And in the garage I have another Samsung plasma dumped recently which I am going to start working on soon... sound and logic board all work but no power to screen. I am in no rush to fix, just curious how and will give it a shot.

Can we expect most TVs today to give us 10+ years of function? Is that too hard to ask? Are there any hard stats or are we just biased by noticing failures? I have other TVs that have given me no trouble... also now going on 10 years. There must be some survivability curve graph on TVs, although I realize there are big differences between type of TV, manufacturer, size, etc.

[GreyWoolfe]

About 4 years ago, some very kind family friends gave us a 2007 model 42" Panasonic plasma, in perfect working order, because they'd "upgraded" to something newer; I'm not sure it's possible to "upgrade" FROM a plasma, as A/V geek friends of mine have commented many a time. It's not even quite 720p capable, BUT WHO CARES; it's nigh on there, and when you have such a stunning quality picture and are immersed in a film, it's all totally irrelevant... "Oh no, you utter savage, watching less than HD" I can hear many "experts" cry! Well our TV was free, and is technically superior, whereas you've probably been fleeced of £2-3,000 and the quality of the stuff on the screen doesn't get better, just because you paid more. 

We picked up a Sanyo 55" plasma TV from an estate sale for $100.  You are not kidding on the picture quality, everyone has noticed the difference.  And I like the dumb TV.  Roku and cable box connected.  Everyone is happy.  We have this in the living room as the main TV.  As a side benefit, I got the 46" Visio LED TV to use as my computer monitor

[SilverSolder]

Yeah that number is pretty nuts, I wonder if that's time sitting actively watching a show or just having it on? My dad has often had the TV on as background, drives me nuts, I don't like it on unless I'm sitting watching something. I probably average 30-60 minutes a day, we typically watch a show over dinner, all streaming from my collection.

The sum of your sins is a constant...  i.e. the time "saved" by not having a TV gets invested in streaming films on laptop and computer screens instead, or playing computer games.  - We do have the need to just flake out with a good movie once in a while.

[Clarmrrsn]

I have had a 50” Panasonic plasma for around 10 years and it is still going strong, my parents and sister also bought Panasonic plasmas at the same time and all 3 are still going. They are built like tanks.

I really dont see any point in upgrading to 4k just now, the picture quality of a plasma is superb, more importantly though the number of 4K programs you can actually watch in the uk is still very limited.

There are 8K tv’s readily available now, and 16K has been released.

Its all getting a bit silly

[james_s]

16K? What's the point? That might make a cool desktop computer monitor but for TV? Who cares.

I have excellent vision and I can only barely see the difference between 1080p and 4K from a few feet away. If I were going to buy a new TV I'd probably buy a 4K model simply because they don't cost much more and I could use it as a monitor too but I don't have any 4K TV content or intend to get any. The slight improvement is not worth the dramatic increase in hard drive space and network bandwidth. Even the standard 1080 content is compressed to the hilt in many cases. People get excited over lots of pixels and then don't realize you need to provide enough data to fill them. I figured out some time back that it's faster to download content I already own than it is to rip the discs myself but you so often see 1080p movies that are compressed down to <1GB files and those are always the most popular, the result obviously looks like crap.

[james_s]

Can we expect most TVs today to give us 10+ years of function? Is that too hard to ask? Are there any hard stats or are we just biased by noticing failures? I have other TVs that have given me no trouble... also now going on 10 years. There must be some survivability curve graph on TVs, although I realize there are big differences between type of TV, manufacturer, size, etc.

Manufactures got addicted to TVs selling like hotcakes during the HD migration. What they don't seem to grasp at all is that the vast majority of these purchases happened not because of HD but because affordable flatscreens appeared on the market at the same time. People dumped their old CRT and bought a new LCD because the LCD was big and thin, wives everywhere were overjoyed to get rid of the big ugly box in their livingroom. Once everyone upgraded sales predictably fell off a cliff and manufactures have been scrambling ever since. They release gimmicks like 3D and 4K not realizing the fact that no feature is going to match the appeal of going from a big bulky thing to a thin flat panel. Most people don't even notice or care about picture quality, I remember seeing countless HD TVs hooked up via composite video which is SD only and the best selling TVs have always been the cheapest crap around.

[edy]

I’m not sure how accurate this calculator is but it attempts to figure out at what distance the pixel density of your screen is no longer resolvable by the human retina:

https://www.designcompaniesranked.com/resources/is-this-retina/

For example my 59” Samsung 1080p plasma dumpster rescue is 1920x1080 at 59” diagonal. According to the above calculator the viewing distance at which pixel density becomes “retina” is 92 inches (234 cm). Our couch is 5m away so I am seeing WAY ABOVE “retina”. It is already overkill for my setup!!!! 

As far as I’m concerned much of this is simply marketing BS. The demo videos in stores and TVs are set up to have over saturated colors and contrast in store lighting environments and has nothing to do with your home setup and lighting conditions you use at home. Like those audiophile shop demos that try to trick you into buying certain expensive gear because you can hear the difference.

There are few compelling reasons to buy new TVs anymore, after the biggest quantum leap which was going from CRT to flat panel. Things should have been getting more reliable but TV makers saw the writing on the wall and rather than see their huge manufacturing plants and profits dwindle they decided to make “light bulbs” (aka modern TVs) with limited lifespans and features of diminishing practical importance.

As cheaper manufacturers like Samsung began to dominate the scene years ago, traditional heavyweights like Philips, Panasonic, Toshiba, JVC, Sony... couldn’t compete. People wanted flat screens and did not understand the reliability issues that would ensue. They also figured things were changing so fast that it wasn’t a long-term investment they were making anyways. That opened the door for the cheapest panels to dominate and that led many TV makers to fold. Sony, Philips and others stopped making consumer sets or simply lent their name to cheaper crappy 3rd party makers, so brand name sufferered. With them out of the industry, all that is left are relatively few makers who built themselves up on cheapness. And now someone who would pay a little more for a quality set has no option.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flat_panel_display_manufacturers

Funny though it isn’t the flat panel that usually fails. It is usually badly designed power supplies and cheap components that cannot tolerate heat or bad designs that stress components. The panels themselves are usually pretty good, but the electronics all around it that suck.

[Red Squirrel]

What I wonder is how well all this built in software works after 5-10 years?  For example if Netflix or Youtube changes the way their system works, or they add new features.   I'm not really a fan of built in software that can't be updated, rather use an external standard off the shelf computer hardware for that.

[james_s]

It doesn't, that's how well it works. Most smart TVs from 5+ years ago no longer work with Youtube, Netflix, etc. The apps are constantly updated and the TVs are supported for a few years at most.

My "holy grail" if I were going to go out and buy a TV is about a 60" OLED, flat (none of this curved nonsense) with 6-10 HDMI inputs, toslink audio passthrough and an elegantly simple interface and remote. Power, volume, input select and menu for all the settings. No "smart" stuff, heck I don't even need a tuner, almost nobody does, really most TVs ought to just be monitors these days. Oh and buttons on the front panel where they belong instead of hidden off on the side, top, back, or any other stupid place that all TVs have them these days. I mean come on, buttons cost peanuts and can easily be placed in the lower bezel. I hate having to hunt around for the remote just to turn the thing on or off while I'm already standing right by it.

[rdl]

... really most TVs ought to just be monitors these days.

On my current TV which I bought in 2014, I don't even know if the tuner works.

[james_s]

I don't know if the tuner works in my TV either, or my mom's TV, or most of the TVs my friends have. I actually can't remember the last time I saw a TV with the tuner connected to anything, at least around here most people have either cable or satellite if they watch any broadcast TV, I think a lot of younger people are not even really aware that you can receive TV over the air with an antenna.

[ebastler]

I actually can't remember the last time I saw a TV with the tuner connected to anything, at least around here most people have either cable or satellite if they watch any broadcast TV

Around here, TVs come with built-in satellite and cable tuners. 
I like the simplicity of just a single remote control.

Having said that, while our (small, 32") TV does have a triple tuner for terrestrial broadcast, satellite, and cable, we only have an under-the-roof aerial for terrestrial broadcast reception connected to it. And we don't have a keycard for any commercial stations installed. Which means we can receive about a dozen channels, all public radio, which is more than enough for me.

[Mr. Scram]

What's the issue with advertisers tracking what you watch on your TV? That's already the case if you watch anything from any streaming provider, and honestly, this is one of the few cases where I absolutely wouldn't care.

"The whole world can already see my butt, so what's wrong with bending over a bit further and showing them my balls too?" 

[james_s]

Around here, TVs come with built-in satellite and cable tuners. 
I like the simplicity of just a single remote control.

I've seen TVs with built in CableCard slots so they can be used that way, but I don't think I've ever seen someone actually do that. Most people want a DVR now, at least in the USA so that necessitates a separate box anyway.

[NiHaoMike]

I'm surprised very few TVs have built in DVR with the addition of a USB hard drive. (Maybe some smart TVs support that with the download of an app.)

[eti]

I'm surprised very few TVs have built in DVR with the addition of a USB hard drive. (Maybe some smart TVs support that with the download of an app.)

Who on earth needs a DVR when almost everything is streaming and on-demand?

[maginnovision]

What I wonder is how well all this built in software works after 5-10 years?  For example if Netflix or Youtube changes the way their system works, or they add new features.   I'm not really a fan of built in software that can't be updated, rather use an external standard off the shelf computer hardware for that.

My 2013 TV still works fine with youtube, netflix, amazon, hulu. The apps can update and they do get updates so maybe you just need to stick to brands that are invested in themselves rather than cheaper brands that just want to continually sell new stuff. Even then I wouldn't be surprised if they updated for a few years but eventually everything loses support.

[Red Squirrel]

I'm surprised very few TVs have built in DVR with the addition of a USB hard drive. (Maybe some smart TVs support that with the download of an app.)

Who on earth needs a DVR when almost everything is streaming and on-demand?

Sometimes you want to archive stuff.  For example my dad has all sorts of historical moments in sports on tape, such as Wayne Gretzki's retirement, or Mark Mcguire's home run record.  Now days it's so hard to archive stuff because there's no easy way to record stuff to a media you can store.  DVRs are basically black boxes that you can't get content out of.   

Boxes like these sorta work though: https://www.amazon.ca/Elgato-Game-Capture-HD60-technology/dp/B01DRWCOGA/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=HDMI+recorder&qid=1575260222&smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&sr=8-3

Just need to get past the protection, a HDMI splitter will usually do that.

But I do agree I wish TVs were just monitors.  If I want anything extra such as video playback or recording, or streaming or anything I rather have it be external on a HTPC.   Currently I have a Kodi box but I find it's kinda cubbersome sometimes, thinking of getting a Raspberry Pi 4 and a wireless keyboard/mouse and just using it as a normal Linux desktop right on the TV where I can just play video files in VLC or what not.  That way I'll be able to do regular internet stuff, Youtube, view pictures etc...   Basically anything you'd do on a computer.   If I feel the RPI4 is still not quite enough then I might get a NUC.

[james_s]

Who on earth needs a DVR when almost everything is streaming and on-demand?

The vast majority of people, streaming is rapidly growing but people like myself who rely 100% on streaming are still a small minority. As of 2018 that's 73% in the USA and in 2017 it was 53% in the UK who have cable or satellite TV.

Having a DVR built into the TV is dumb for the same reason "smart" TVs are dumb. The idea is fundamentally flawed, the TV should be a monitor to which you can connect any device you want. We already have a standardized interface, HDMI. There are also standards that allow one remote to control multiple devices, though not as standardized as it ought to be.

[GlennSprigg]

Well, (I'm the O.P.), and have certainly stirred the hornets nest! 
I expected, and received a bit of flak near the top of page 1, and that's OK. I'm new to the topic.
And yes, I can see now, the probable benefits of alternatively using the likes of a 'Roku' device.

Most complaints seem to stem around the longevity of support/upgrades for 'smart' TV's.
Many people here have reported GOOD longevity & support. Although what's the difference with
any other electronic devices these days, like desktop computers & laptops etc.  After 2 years, they
are almost out of date, and  you can buy something nearly twice as good now, and for half the price!

When I first run/set-up this 'smart' TV, the 1st thing it explained was total disclosure about such
things as "Collecting Data", before proceeding. All they know is my Country & State, and I don't see
the difference than with 'Youtube' on my PC/Laptop showing you more of the things you like in the list!!

Anyway, I don't know if the likes of 'Roku' does this? but the 'smart' TV lets me record/save everything,
and uses features like 'Catch-Up' to link to the free-to-air channels to view anything we have missed etc.

Finally, my main original discussion/question was about 'Linux', that it appears to run on, and as I've
since learn't the term.... "How to 'Side-Load' apps, as Linux doesn't seem to have a 'repository/store'
as such(?), like Android does with their '.apk' files. However, thanks to all for your tech responses. 

[edy]

Yes the nest definitely got stirred but that is what you'll find with most discussions here! There are lots of opinions and as long as everyone is courteous about their opinions and lists their arguments for or against it, we are all the more wise for it! Everyone's situation is different.

As I stated, if you didn't have a "Smart" device before the purchase, then you may as well just buy it integrated into the TV. Worst thing that could happen is in a few years *if* it goes bad then you just get a plug-in type of "smart stick" so you don't trash the entire TV. Nothing wrong with that. There is not much of a price difference anymore in TV's having "smart" features and those without, so may as well just buy one with it integrated if you have nothing else.

As far as Linux goes, there is an article here from March 2019:

http://linuxgizmos.com/linux-continues-advance-in-smart-tv-market/

Android, Linux and so on will become more commonplace on TV's but there are privacy/security concerns.  If the TV has an integrated mic/camera then perhaps even more of an issue. Otherwise they can determine what you are watching, but so can Roku, Google and most other providers. Not much you can do about it but get a "dumb" TV and feed it signals from a dedicated Linux box which you build yourself and thus can handle updates/security yourself. Otherwise you are at the mercy of whoever makes this stuff. Again, it may not matter to you if you don't care if they know what you are watching.

If the TV comes from a reputable brand that updates firmware regularly, you will be better off than a cheap brand that couldn't care less and you will be stranded with buggy or privacy/security-prone firmware. It is no different than the lack of security in some of the cheap IP-based cams from several years ago. Now you will have a TV with open ports to the internet which could potentially be hacked.

Here is an old and somewhat lengthy article about this:

https://www.delaat.net/rp/2012-2013/p39/report.pdf

I am sure today the situation is not much different.

[SilverSolder]

[...] with any other electronic devices these days, like desktop computers & laptops etc.  After 2 years, they are almost out of date, and  you can buy something nearly twice as good now, and for half the price! [...]

This isn't generally true any longer - PCs/laptops have been stuck on a plateau in performance for many years now, the same is happening (has happened?) with mobile phones.  But the industry will of course keep charging high prices - even for mature products - see car industry.