Author Topic: What if Dave were transported to 1890?  (Read 14588 times)

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Online IanJ

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2014, 09:08:44 pm »
Dave in the 1890's.................easy!

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Offline jpb

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2014, 09:38:39 pm »
I am impressed by prisoners-of-war in WWII who managed to build themselves radios with very little - using a lump of coal and a sprung wire for a diode and so on. They still needed high impedance phones though.

In 1890 a big problem would be insulation without decent plastic, they had bakalite I think (I've spelt that wrong probably). Semiconductors would be out but they probably had good enough vacuum technology to build valves.

There was quite a fun programme on UK TV a few years ago in which a bunch of scientists/engineers were dumped on an island and had to build themselves high tech stuff out of what they could find (they were set problems such as finding the latitude and longitude of the island).
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2014, 09:39:16 pm »
Good idea, restart life without Democrats.    :-DD

Or more importantly, without religion.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2014, 09:43:20 pm »
It would take a long time, many many decades. Probably half the time it took before might be a reasonable first guess.
Getting to the stage of manufacturing semiconductors again for example requires the building of massive infrastructures and other technology first.
 

Offline Rigby

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2014, 09:46:19 pm »
The field effect transistor was patented in 1926 by Julius Edgar Lilienfeld.  But there weren't any applications for a long time, possibly due to inadequate theory.

that patent should probably have never been granted.  It was entirely theory and had no working model.  It wasn't even possible to implement a FET at the time that patent was granted.  It probably expired before it was possible to make a FET. 
 

Offline babysitter

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2014, 09:51:30 pm »
+1 at no religion.

Dave should go to a certain nice wild west village in 1885, visit the blacksmith there !
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2014, 09:59:06 pm »
I am impressed by prisoners-of-war in WWII who managed to build themselves radios with very little - using a lump of coal and a sprung wire for a diode and so on. They still needed high impedance phones though.

In 1890 a big problem would be insulation without decent plastic, they had bakalite I think (I've spelt that wrong probably). Semiconductors would be out but they probably had good enough vacuum technology to build valves.

The 19th century had a lot of those sorts of resources, if you were in the right places.  Faraday made his own insulated wire by wrapping it with linen or thread!  Vacuum was being played with, and if you can convince someone to make a mercury diffusion pump (which should do well enough, unless you want to synthesize or purify your own vacuum oil!), you can easily achieve the hard vacuum required.  Sir Humphrey Davy even isolated alkaline earth metals, so you can install a lump of the stuff for getter!  Tungsten wire hadn't quite taken off yet, but the development of things I think would put some pressure on that.

So, going back further, say to the 1850s, though being specific about the place -- say, London; you could very well do some significant advances on tech.  There was even an existing market: telegraph networks, needing repeaters, amplifiers, that sort of thing; and later, telephone.  The quality of amplifier wouldn't need to be much (the Audion was pretty weak by later standards), just that it exists at all would be sufficient.

That at least seems to me like one of the biggest advances a single person, in the right place, could introduce.  Later works (like semiconductors) depend on many things being established already, and even if you're very knowledgeable about the subject, theoretically and in practice, there's so much you'd have to do to be able to implement these things.  So it starts taking teams of people, learned in their respective subjects, to start something from the ground up like that.

Perhaps an even more dramatic advance could be seen in the century before that; suppose Sir Henry Bessemer, having developed his Converter, was transported back to the 18th century.  Plenty of steelmaking was going on, but the sheer industrialization wasn't there yet to inspire something so grand.

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Offline Neilm

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2014, 10:17:09 pm »
There was quite a fun programme on UK TV a few years ago in which a bunch of scientists/engineers were dumped on an island and had to build themselves high tech stuff out of what they could find (they were set problems such as finding the latitude and longitude of the island).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Science My lasting memories from that series were some of the ways the scientists worked out (and bodged) some of the tools they needed, using bits of junk around. Not to mention Kate Humble (the presenter) in a wetsuit...
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Offline vk6zgo

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2014, 12:28:34 am »
If he was, I'm pretty sure that the vacuum tube era could be bypassed entirely. In a few years he could build something similar to the 1947 point junction transistor, provided he had the funds. To impress others he could invent the modern AC induction motor before tesla, develop an improved electric record player, and invent the speaker and sound system. With the transistor he could have developed the superhet and other radio technologies by around the same time, maybe 1910's, get TV by the 20's (provided he develops the CRT) However, I think, without modern semiconductor factories, he would find it next to impossible to get to the IC era, or at least, a modern CPU before the 50's.

The Superhet already existed by 1910,TV was well on the way by the 1920's.
The 50 years between 1890 & 1940 saw a Tsunami of Technological innovation that we are still riding.

Don't knock the vacuum tube---all the circuit theory you use to analyse Semiconductor  amplifiers,etc was
developed for these devices.
 
 

Offline Phaedrus

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2014, 12:54:33 am »
Superhet wasn't invented until 1918
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Offline 6E5

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2014, 02:20:59 am »
Superhet wasn't invented until 1918


Yup, 1918 by Edwin Armstrong. But, the regenerative circuit was around about a decade before. I wouldn't dream of knocking vacuum tubes, they're my pride and joy! Plus, I'd think you'd break them...
 

Offline 6E5

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2014, 02:29:05 am »
+1 at no religion.

Dave should go to a certain nice wild west village in 1885, visit the blacksmith there !

Dave needs to be careful. You know he can never resist when someone calls him chicken.

"JONES, It's 8 o clock! And I'm calling you out!"

Tannon, I forfeit!

"FORFEIT???? uh what does that mean...."
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2014, 02:50:04 am »
If he was transported, would he get to come back? I don't really want the YT channel to shut down.
 

Offline GalenboTopic starter

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2014, 12:06:32 pm »
"Edison Effect" (aka thermionic emission) discovered--1880

Fleming's Valve (diode vacuum tube) invented--1904

Deforest's "Audion" (triode vacuum tube) invented--1906

I chose 1890 for this topic, because this seemed to me a period where things became possible.
1904 is 14 years from 1890, maybe with knowledge of "existable mechanisms" it could be done in 2 years?

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Offline GalenboTopic starter

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2014, 12:12:14 pm »
Dave is an electronics engineer, not a semiconductor physicist.

No offence intended to Dave, but I do not think he could make a practical transistor except possibly suggesting a theory of operation to someone already in the field.

The "To be transported" guy I intended, was "someone who has practical knowledge of science/technics/earth/..."
Sure nobody covers it all, but the one who really wants, and knows it's possible?

 
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Offline GalenboTopic starter

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2014, 12:20:59 pm »
Doubtful.

Production of high purity germanium and silicon crystals would have been impossible without big honking vacuum tubes powering the induction heaters used in crystal pulling furnaces.

I also think not many things can be bypassed. Everything on how to develop USB sticks was stored on huge harddrives and diskettes.
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Offline johnwa

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2014, 12:36:16 pm »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rough_Science

Curse you! There go my chances of getting anything productive done this weekend!  :)

Attention, if you have any important jobs that need doing soon, definitely don't click on the following link: .

Regarding the technological bootstrapping problem, it is always an interesting problem to contemplate, but the answer depends heavily on the constraints placed on the exercise. For instance, you won't be able to do much electronics without any wire, but there is a lot of technology required to go from digging ore out of the ground, to a fine, insulated wire. I guess you really need to look at significant inventions and discoveries from all fields, not just a particular one like electronics.

EDIT: Saucepan variable capacitors FTW!
« Last Edit: February 21, 2014, 12:41:00 pm by johnwa »
 

Offline deth502

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2014, 01:08:33 pm »
If he was transported, would he get to come back? I don't really want the YT channel to shut down.

relax, its just a hypothetical question. dave is not really going to go back in time.
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #43 on: February 22, 2014, 01:29:45 am »
Superhet wasn't invented until 1918


Yup, 1918 by Edwin Armstrong. But, the regenerative circuit was around about a decade before. I wouldn't dream of knocking vacuum tubes, they're my pride and joy! Plus, I'd think you'd break them...

Yep,you're right--I didn't check.
Being 140 years old,it gets a bit hard to remember just when that young whippersnapper Armstrong invented those things! ;D
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #44 on: February 22, 2014, 08:18:52 am »
Two big questions that would be critical for the outcome:

1. Would he have adequate warning before being sent back? Time enough to study the problem beforehand, research, decide on a strategy, read up on details of technological advances he could realistically introduce. Is he allowed to take back books or other materials?

2. Startup funds & camouflage? If you just dumped him somewhere in the English countryside in shorts, t-shirt and thongs, he'd probably end up dead or locked away in a lunatic asylum pretty quickly. A bag of gold sovereigns would make a huge difference. Some elocution and accent training wouldn't hurt either.

There's a fun and somewhat related time-travel novel: The Strange Affair of Spring Heeled Jack by Mark Hodder.
http://www.amazon.com/Strange-Affair-Spring-Heeled-Swinburne/dp/1616142405

That's set mostly around 1861 though.
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Offline johansen

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #45 on: February 22, 2014, 06:52:16 pm »
he'd probably end up dead or locked away in a lunatic asylum pretty quickly. A bag of gold sovereigns would make a huge difference.

that's just a matter of time, bag of gold sovereigns or not... :-DD
 

Offline Corporate666

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #46 on: February 22, 2014, 07:17:44 pm »
Dave would be schooling Tesla and Edison on quite a few things.  They would fall to the side as Dave's mysterious knowledge of the unknown, coupled with his demeanor, would spook the hell out of everyone.  Fortunately the world was not as skeptical as it is today, and we would be in awe of his phenomenal knowledge.  We would be furiously searching for the origins of his knowledge and the accent that contemporary Australia would not recognize as their own.

Given the differences in human rights of the day, they might dissect him  :-DD
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Offline XynxNet

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #47 on: February 22, 2014, 10:06:53 pm »
Tooling up would be a major problem and take decades.
It's all about materials science. That doesn't only include what to produce but also the production process and how to scale it up in a cost effective way.

Even today with all our analytic tools, there are for example steel companies producing special alloys which still could not be copied by others.
 

Offline GalenboTopic starter

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Re: What if Dave were transported to 1890?
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2014, 01:03:35 pm »
Two big questions that would be critical for the outcome:

1. Would he have adequate warning before being sent back? Time enough to study the problem beforehand, research, decide on a strategy, read up on details of technological advances he could realistically introduce. Is he allowed to take back books or other materials?

2. Startup funds & camouflage? If you just dumped him somewhere in the English countryside in shorts, t-shirt and thongs, he'd probably end up dead or locked away in a lunatic asylum pretty quickly. A bag of gold sovereigns would make a huge difference. Some elocution and accent training wouldn't hurt either.

I would say, medium for both questions. 3 days preparation, takes 1kg of gold coins with him, doen't get robbed, killed, but has no fanbase either. 
If you try and take a cat apart to see how it works, the first thing you have on your hands is a nonworking cat.
 


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