Author Topic: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????  (Read 5010 times)

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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2018, 02:08:43 pm »
Basically, there is way too much interdependence of components in Linux distros.

It's called software re-use.

I am sorry but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of APT

I'm completely with Gnif on this one - if modern packaging systems and management tools (rpm, deb, apt, yum/dnf etc) are giving you grief you might just be doing something wrong, the whole point of these tools is to manage dependencies and, used properly they do a good job.

If you go off piste and compile source yourself or pick up binary stuff which is not packaged, or not packaged correctly, then you may well have issues as described but that isn't really the fault of either the distributions or their package management.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2018, 02:56:39 pm »
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!
 

Online senso

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2018, 03:21:08 pm »
And you can always buy another Windows key/COA/licence if you really need Windows, if not, slap some unix in there.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2018, 03:35:36 pm »
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!
Something not quite right about that story - surely most windows licences are OEM ones acquired with the PC and which stay with the hardware. As long as there's a CoA there shouldn't be a problem. Happy to be corrected on that - not a M$ license expert.

IF a PC had retail then that could be retained by the previous owner and transferred to another PC, or if they are corporate machines then, there might be an issue but if that was the case the article didn't explain it very well.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2018, 04:32:41 pm »
Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2018, 04:56:39 pm »
Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
I'm never quite sure with the free thought project stuff.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2018, 06:46:12 pm »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2018, 01:05:46 am »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.

It's only bizarre if you naively assume courts are about justice, rather than protecting the status quo and money-interests. And that Microsoft _isn't_ as evil as I suggest.

"There's no justice in the court system." - Quote from a barrister, told to me by a friend. His example involved his wife being massively, life-ruiningly injured on a NSW ski lift. Totally due to negligence of the ski lift operator. Who fought damages payment right up to the high court, and won. My friend's career, life, home, wife's health, all trashed. Just because a company had more money for court battles than he did.

I have my own example tale, not quite as bad but still extreme. Too long and off-topic to relate here.

Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
When you have doubts about a story, the first thing you should do is look for alternative sources and substantiations. As Grumpy did, and thanks for that link, grumpy.
One thing you should NEVER do, is reject an entire story just because you don't like some other things on that site.
What you're doing is called ad hominem, and is as logically invalid as 'appeal to authority'.

Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!

It's false for some small subset of people. But true for the majority. Most people do not have the confidence and knowledge to be able to install a different OS. It's easy for technically capable people to forget this. Projection...

Or, ha ha, some like me may have 'OS installation aversion anxiety', due to multiple instances in the past of wasting a great deal of time attempting OS adventures that ultimately failed. Typically for obscure reasons that turned into endless f*ck-arounds with inadequate information, obscure problems that couldn't be solved, drivers that couldn't be found or didn't work, etc.

I have a PC sitting on the side bench beside me here, that is stalled in an OS-adventure for precisely that reason. Holding up a whole string of projects. Must find the courage... sigh.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 01:26:39 am by TerraHertz »
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2018, 01:33:31 am »
Rejecting stories because the source isn't reliable is the only sensible thing to do. There are so many trash stories out there that you cannot expect people to go on the hunt every time some claim is made. It has nothing to do with an ad hominem or any other fallacy. Information is only as valuable as the source it comes from. It it's a trash source, you cannot depend on the information it dispenses. Added to that is the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove. Both are principles science and the legal system heavily are depending on in major ways.

It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.
 

Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 01:44:09 am »
It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.


From what I read, it was distributing copies of the recovery disks that was a problem, even though the disk was freely downloadable.

Now, even though something is freely downloadable, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with the downloaded content.  If you could, GPL would have no teeth.  I'm afraid if a download comes with conditions, you'd better abide by them.

Now it might be a marketing faux pas for Microsoft to have gone after this guy, but I guess not as this is the first I've heard of it.

 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2018, 02:46:58 am »
Big boy Intel ME is present from Sandy Bridge and up, play with FITC and an ME dump if you dont believe, it can be disabled by corrupting it at least in Sandy Bridge based systems.
Sandy bridge - I know. I'm one of the first few who posted here about the IME, remember? 'Disabled' - that's a whole can of worms I haven't looked into. Problem is how can one ever be sure it's totally gone? Also what other back doors are in the silicon? It's a waste of time fighting a demonstrably hostile opponent who has vastly more resources than you. Better to just walk away. My minimal effort approach is just to stick with older CPUs. (A side benefit is that they are free.)

One thing I'm still looking for, is an Intel CPUs timeline, that includes what is known about the ME and other backdoors, and when each was introduced. Even the Pentium 1 had SMM code execution invisible to the OS and user-code, and I don't trust that either.

Ultimately, the only solution is to dump the entire Intel-MS computing ecosystem, and start with something fresh. Something with active countermeasures to prevent this kind of creeping OEM spyware plague, and a political-legal foundation with teeth to ensure this shitty situation doesn't happen again.

Quote
All OS's do that, even Windows 7 as telemetry, and lots of it with the latest updates, as does lots of Linux distros, with Ubuntu saying that they will do almost the same as MS.
Which is one of a list of reasons I don't switch all my machines to Linux. It may come to that, but there are downsides, and Linux doesn't solve the privacy problem. Just makes it maybe slightly better in some respects. That's not good enough.

Quote
If you dont want forced updates, disable them, and then complain how you are part of a botnet
Ha ha, you assume that with my views on MS (and other software majors) I'd allow auto-updates of _anything_.
You also assume that MS updates will close all known 'holes'. But we know for a fact from the NSA toolkit leak and other things, that this is false and MS and Intel are actually responsible for creating and maintaining many holes. And now lots of those holes are in the wild due to the NSA toolkit leaks. Which was inevitable, and merely a practical demonstration that deliberately creating holes is a deeply retarded thing to do. But that's fascists for you.

Aside re updates: The whole 'Windows Genuine Advantage' (aka we're going to try and force you to take all the updates, or none) is such a pain in the arse. But that was just an incremental step towards the nastiness of Win10.

Edit to add:

Rejecting stories because the source isn't reliable is the only sensible thing to do. There are so many trash stories out there that you cannot expect people to go on the hunt every time some claim is made. It has nothing to do with an ad hominem or any other fallacy. Information is only as valuable as the source it comes from. It it's a trash source, you cannot depend on the information it dispenses. Added to that is the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove. Both are principles science and the legal system heavily are depending on in major ways.

You're wrong in both the general sense, and the specific. Firstly, we've now established the recycling PCs court case story is real. Yet you still seem to be justifying to yourself the act of rejecting it due to initial source.

So why are you wrong in general?

You're applying the rules of scientific method and legal exactitude, to the real world. But they do not apply, because in the real world there are people operating by the principles of Game Theory (lie and cheat, obfuscate your motives, maximize your advantage any conceivable way), the Hegelian Dialectic (manufacture fake crisis, to which you propose a solution - that is what you wanted in the first place), the principles of Propaganda and cognitive dissonance (lead people to believe absurdities, break their connection with logic and truth, and you can get them to do anything you want.) And so on.

The Scientific Method works, because Physics isn't actively trying to deceive and trick you, and is consistent. (And still there's currently a huge crisis of irreproducible published results, ie fake science.)

In the real world otoh, there is NO SUCH THING as an absolutely reliable information source. Not the mainstream media, figures of authority, or anything online.  Some are just worse than others. To further complicate things, we're seeing a cultural split into multiple mutually incompatible belief-sets. As recently complained about by Alphabet/Google's Eric Schmidt, bitching that Google's AI is hard to program to arbitrate what is Truth and what isn't, because of this social split. So how to AI-censor the views different to his, and why does he have to put up with this trouble? Poor Mr Schmidt. (And I'm leaving out his further issues with a certain Presidential EO.)

"the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove" 
Also false in the social sphere. Especially when dealing with conspiracy (which this whole issue of Microsoft's ultimate objectives does involve, by definition.) The function of noticing some possible connection, stating it publicly, so others can add anything relevant they have found, thus evolving public understanding of what's going on... that's a very valuable thing. It's how ALL socio-political revolutions arise, and it's what's happening again now in a much faster and detailed way, thanks to the Net.

It's why the Elites are freaking out about the Internet - for the first time in human history the control mesh involving official news channels (which includes the commercial MSM, when all are owned by a very small pro-State clique) and official pronouncements, is starting to lose effectiveness.

"There are so many trash stories out there"
Yes indeed. In fact a lot of that is deliberate, much of it due to the existing power structures attempting to poison the challenger to their authority - the Net.
Which doesn't alter the fact that the only way to deal with _any_ story, is to judge it on it's own merits, whether it contradicts  other information you've established as probably true, whether it makes sense, etc. The nature of the source should only be another bit of background information, giving you some idea of the information's credibility. But never in itself excluding a story from consideration.
Also bear in mind that almost all web sites have economic needs, and so likely have to mix stories to suit their advertising and clicks needs. But they also often serve as news comcentration nodes, since they get stuff sent to them by their audience. Hence, you can get a mix of trash, lies and worthwhile news. Just like the MSM only with different slants, unlike the MSM's almost entirely homogenous bias, by nature of their very homogenous ownership.

The MS-vs-recycler story exactly fit what I knew about MS philosophy and practice, so I didn't bother finding independent backing. I've been caught out making that kind of easy acceptance (selection bias) a (very) few times in the past. But this time not.

Quote
It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.

No, the problem is that MS wants to stamp out the reuse of old PCs. Their legal argument to the court is bullshit and so are their EULAs for the original restore CDs.  Just a means to an end. Which is killing any alternatives to people being forced to move to Win10. For reasons I've stated. Even statistically tiny numbers of people. MS wants it all, no escape permitted.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:50:53 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2018, 08:10:45 am »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.

It's only bizarre if you naively assume courts are about justice, rather than protecting the status quo and money-interests. And that Microsoft _isn't_ as evil as I suggest.

Some of the commenters on El Reg are suggesting the problem was not so much with recycling PCs, nor even with the validity of the licences (though there was some discussion as to whether he needed specific "recycled PC" OS licences), nor with the contents of the recovery disks but the fact that he made the recovery disks an exact but "fake" copy of the originals complete with Dell and Microsoft logos.

So he seems to have been convicted of producing counterfeit recovery disks - that at least makes more sense in terms of why the court found him guilty.

Also, as was observed by one commentator 28,800 disks is a lot for a one man recycling outfit. To go through those in a year you'd have to process 120 PCs a day 5 days a week which is a hell of a task.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2018, 10:24:03 am »
It's false for some small subset of people. But true for the majority. Most people do not have the confidence and knowledge to be able to install a different OS. It's easy for technically capable people to forget this. Projection...

Or, ha ha, some like me may have 'OS installation aversion anxiety', due to multiple instances in the past of wasting a great deal of time attempting OS adventures that ultimately failed. Typically for obscure reasons that turned into endless f*ck-arounds with inadequate information, obscure problems that couldn't be solved, drivers that couldn't be found or didn't work, etc.

I have a PC sitting on the side bench beside me here, that is stalled in an OS-adventure for precisely that reason. Holding up a whole string of projects. Must find the courage... sigh.
But we're not talking about the average user here.  The person in question is more than capable of installing an alternative operating system to Windows.
 

Offline acts238willy

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2018, 11:16:50 am »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2018, 10:08:32 pm »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......


You're not missing out on anything to lose sleep over,

that 'touch' stuff can be annoying and a pita to use on many simple functions

Useful for phones up to a point, but a chore to use with anything else where keyboard and mouse are still king  :clap: :clap:

 

Offline Masa

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2018, 09:26:36 am »
Well it is understandable that the UI in Windows 10 is still a work in progress. Actually from MS point of view, it is understandable, that when the mobile computing began to get very popular and eat the sales of the PC market, Microsoft had to do something, as their sales were going down. The result was the Windows 8, that was quite horrible from UI point of view for a desktop user. Luckily they listened user feedback and returned the desktop and startmenu to the old style on Windows 10. But they also changed Windows 10 to a rolling release system . . .

I think the desktop user interface in Windows 10 currently is quite good for a traditional desktop user. There is many parts improved since win 7 not only for touch, but also for mouse and keyboard, like the Windows explorer. They have also added some new desktop features, like multiple desktops, improved the command promt, better calculator etc.

Also there is quite interesting new features, like the Linux subsystem that you can install. It allows you to run linux software natively on windows, ( they have added some kind of linux system call interface into the NT kernel ).  ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 09:28:54 am by Masa »
 

Offline acts238willy

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2018, 03:38:57 pm »
In a few years, it's crunch time for all windoz 7 users, right?

Linux learning time, I guess...
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2018, 05:10:29 pm »
Well it is understandable that the UI in Windows 10 is still a work in progress. Actually from MS point of view, it is understandable, that when the mobile computing began to get very popular and eat the sales of the PC market, Microsoft had to do something, as their sales were going down. The result was the Windows 8, that was quite horrible from UI point of view for a desktop user. Luckily they listened user feedback and returned the desktop and startmenu to the old style on Windows 10. But they also changed Windows 10 to a rolling release system . . .

I think the desktop user interface in Windows 10 currently is quite good for a traditional desktop user. There is many parts improved since win 7 not only for touch, but also for mouse and keyboard, like the Windows explorer. They have also added some new desktop features, like multiple desktops, improved the command promt, better calculator etc.

Also there is quite interesting new features, like the Linux subsystem that you can install. It allows you to run linux software natively on windows, ( they have added some kind of linux system call interface into the NT kernel ).  ;)
Lots of it is personal preference. I like the new command prompt, am indifferent about multiple desktops and hate the new calculator, with its giant toy interface, so much so, that I've downloaded and installed the Windows 7 patched version. I also dislike the flat look of the widgets, which reminds me of old Windows versions and DOS software and that the window title and menu bars are both white, although there's probably a way to fix that.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2018, 09:47:30 pm »
With a bit of internet surfing with appropriate search terms and a scrape or two on Youtube , you can beef up Win 7 and 8x with third party apps and browsers etc,
using freeware and cheap shareware with author support, that have been around for ages

and have a top notch system that will be miles in front of what Win 10, 12, and 12.1 can ever hope to be

You can even use third party apps to strip off or suppress most of the Win 10 headaches and have it behaving,
rather than TELLING you 'where you are going to go today'   ::)


FWIW taking Linux out for a test drive won't break the bank, or injure you   :phew:

But you may suffer the former if you blunder into expensive Mac mountain terrain,
infested with spinning beach balls of death   :scared:
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2018, 10:22:08 pm »
Sandy bridge - I know. I'm one of the first few who posted here about the IME, remember? 'Disabled' - that's a whole can of worms I haven't looked into. Problem is how can one ever be sure it's totally gone? Also what other back doors are in the silicon? It's a waste of time fighting a demonstrably hostile opponent who has vastly more resources than you. Better to just walk away. My minimal effort approach is just to stick with older CPUs. (A side benefit is that they are free.)

One thing I'm still looking for, is an Intel CPUs timeline, that includes what is known about the ME and other backdoors, and when each was introduced. Even the Pentium 1 had SMM code execution invisible to the OS and user-code, and I don't trust that either.

Ultimately, the only solution is to dump the entire Intel-MS computing ecosystem, and start with something fresh. Something with active countermeasures to prevent this kind of creeping OEM spyware plague, and a political-legal foundation with teeth to ensure this shitty situation doesn't happen again.

Which is one of a list of reasons I don't switch all my machines to Linux. It may come to that, but there are downsides, and Linux doesn't solve the privacy problem. Just makes it maybe slightly better in some respects. That's not good enough.

Ha ha, you assume that with my views on MS (and other software majors) I'd allow auto-updates of _anything_.
You also assume that MS updates will close all known 'holes'. But we know for a fact from the NSA toolkit leak and other things, that this is false and MS and Intel are actually responsible for creating and maintaining many holes. And now lots of those holes are in the wild due to the NSA toolkit leaks. Which was inevitable, and merely a practical demonstration that deliberately creating holes is a deeply retarded thing to do. But that's fascists for you.

Aside re updates: The whole 'Windows Genuine Advantage' (aka we're going to try and force you to take all the updates, or none) is such a pain in the arse. But that was just an incremental step towards the nastiness of Win10.

Edit to add:

You're wrong in both the general sense, and the specific. Firstly, we've now established the recycling PCs court case story is real. Yet you still seem to be justifying to yourself the act of rejecting it due to initial source.

So why are you wrong in general?

You're applying the rules of scientific method and legal exactitude, to the real world. But they do not apply, because in the real world there are people operating by the principles of Game Theory (lie and cheat, obfuscate your motives, maximize your advantage any conceivable way), the Hegelian Dialectic (manufacture fake crisis, to which you propose a solution - that is what you wanted in the first place), the principles of Propaganda and cognitive dissonance (lead people to believe absurdities, break their connection with logic and truth, and you can get them to do anything you want.) And so on.

The Scientific Method works, because Physics isn't actively trying to deceive and trick you, and is consistent. (And still there's currently a huge crisis of irreproducible published results, ie fake science.)

In the real world otoh, there is NO SUCH THING as an absolutely reliable information source. Not the mainstream media, figures of authority, or anything online.  Some are just worse than others. To further complicate things, we're seeing a cultural split into multiple mutually incompatible belief-sets. As recently complained about by Alphabet/Google's Eric Schmidt, bitching that Google's AI is hard to program to arbitrate what is Truth and what isn't, because of this social split. So how to AI-censor the views different to his, and why does he have to put up with this trouble? Poor Mr Schmidt. (And I'm leaving out his further issues with a certain Presidential EO.)

"the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove" 
Also false in the social sphere. Especially when dealing with conspiracy (which this whole issue of Microsoft's ultimate objectives does involve, by definition.) The function of noticing some possible connection, stating it publicly, so others can add anything relevant they have found, thus evolving public understanding of what's going on... that's a very valuable thing. It's how ALL socio-political revolutions arise, and it's what's happening again now in a much faster and detailed way, thanks to the Net.

It's why the Elites are freaking out about the Internet - for the first time in human history the control mesh involving official news channels (which includes the commercial MSM, when all are owned by a very small pro-State clique) and official pronouncements, is starting to lose effectiveness.

"There are so many trash stories out there"
Yes indeed. In fact a lot of that is deliberate, much of it due to the existing power structures attempting to poison the challenger to their authority - the Net.
Which doesn't alter the fact that the only way to deal with _any_ story, is to judge it on it's own merits, whether it contradicts  other information you've established as probably true, whether it makes sense, etc. The nature of the source should only be another bit of background information, giving you some idea of the information's credibility. But never in itself excluding a story from consideration.
Also bear in mind that almost all web sites have economic needs, and so likely have to mix stories to suit their advertising and clicks needs. But they also often serve as news comcentration nodes, since they get stuff sent to them by their audience. Hence, you can get a mix of trash, lies and worthwhile news. Just like the MSM only with different slants, unlike the MSM's almost entirely homogenous bias, by nature of their very homogenous ownership.

The MS-vs-recycler story exactly fit what I knew about MS philosophy and practice, so I didn't bother finding independent backing. I've been caught out making that kind of easy acceptance (selection bias) a (very) few times in the past. But this time not.


No, the problem is that MS wants to stamp out the reuse of old PCs. Their legal argument to the court is bullshit and so are their EULAs for the original restore CDs.  Just a means to an end. Which is killing any alternatives to people being forced to move to Win10. For reasons I've stated. Even statistically tiny numbers of people. MS wants it all, no escape permitted.
For fuck's sake, just admit you should have picked a more decent source.  :palm:
 

Offline james_s

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2018, 11:09:24 pm »
You're not missing out on anything to lose sleep over,

that 'touch' stuff can be annoying and a pita to use on many simple functions

Useful for phones up to a point, but a chore to use with anything else where keyboard and mouse are still king  :clap: :clap:

I tolerate touch on my phone because I can't carry a keyboard and mouse around in my pocket very easily but otherwise I really hate touchscreens. I'd say I have better than average dexterity but my fingertips are still larger than the virtual keys in most cases. I constantly find myself having to repeatedly stab at touch buttons before they decide to register my touch. I have the same problem with those capacitive touch buttons that are popular on consumer gear, they just don't detect my touch very well. Give me physical controls any day.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2018, 11:14:18 pm »

I tolerate touch on my phone because I can't carry a keyboard and mouse around in my pocket very easily but otherwise I really hate touchscreens. I'd say I have better than average dexterity but my fingertips are still larger than the virtual keys in most cases. I constantly find myself having to repeatedly stab at touch buttons before they decide to register my touch. I have the same problem with those capacitive touch buttons that are popular on consumer gear, they just don't detect my touch very well. Give me physical controls any day.
Tactile feedback seems very underrated.
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2018, 11:42:32 pm »
I just bought a 100$ Cherry MX Green keyboard. I love my tactile feedback.
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Offline tooki

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2018, 12:04:59 am »
Because the new CEO is not Steve Balmer, and the fact that he was bought at a time of a failing  Windows. Because they have employed brilliant non-Microsoft people. Because they now absolutely love Docker, Kubernetes and lots of other OS stuff. Because they are massively running Linux. The guys designing the future of Windows know Linux backwards. (Don't be surprised if the new O/S can run Linux programs perfectly.) Because they are prepared to almost give Windows 10 away over 6 years to create the opportunity to make a new O/S. Because with the release of Windows 10, one of the chief Microsoft guys said it was that last Windows version. Because they said on initial release that Windows 10 ends in 2020 and long term support ends in 2025 or earlier for all current Windows versions and in the last 4 years, that has never changed.

Microsoft is not a stupid company - they have done a brilliant job keeping Windows going for 25+ years. Their problem has been that to fix Windows, they need to take a big leap and that could never happen under any previous CEO. Steve Gates was too tied to the old Windows and Balmer was only a business man - he couldn't drive technical revolution. Windows 8 is his legacy.

I get the impression that some people think that the results of 6 years work by a massive company and with the smartest people in the industry will be another pathetic Windows 8 attempt. I don't know why.
Historically, Microsoft has been about backwards compatibility in a major way. Many of the issues we see today are a result of choices made in the past and kept for the sake of backwards compatibility. Microsoft understand like no other that when you start cutting the compatibility, people have no reason not to go somewhere else. If you have to start anew, why not start somewhere else?

This means that if they come up with something else, it needs to be massively compatible with the past. That's what they have done so succesfully all these years and what they will undoubtedly continue to do so. This means being stuck with the same choices once more.
Nail on head.

This is precisely why web apps became a HUGE opportunity for Apple to make headway in the enterprise: if a company needs to reengineer an internal app anyway (because the platform it’s on is obsolete), they’ll mostly rewrite it as a web app to make it platform agnostic. (See IBM’s massive Mac rollout for a great example of this. As of 2 years ago, they were at 130,000 Macs rolled out, and continuing at a rate of 1900 per week. This would have been categorically impossible if their internal apps were still for Windows or OS/2.) Similarly, for many users a Chromebook is enough to run the web apps.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2018, 12:08:14 am »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......
FYI, iOS has some accessibility settings to help with shaky hands: https://www.abilitynet.org.uk/news-blogs/how-changing-settings-your-ipad-and-iphone-can-help-people-tremors-and-other-dexterity

I assume android either has such things, too, or will at some point.
 


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