Author Topic: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????  (Read 4964 times)

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Offline GlennSprigg

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Let's get one thing clear.... I'm an 'old' bastard haha.... and so I'm probably 'biased'  :)
YOUNG people today, (say from 10 to 20 y/o), have either never had to deal will an old
'386/486' desktop computer for example, though more than likely never even HEARD of one!
However, 'computers' they were, running old versions of windows like... 3.1, Win-98, Win-Xp.

My discussion here is about the future advents since then, and why.....   BACK then, the BIGGEST problem
was hardware compatibility & DRIVERS. Not to mention a pathetic resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768.
BEYOND that, a 'Computer' was just that. a 'Computer'. We wrote 'Letters', had simple databases & spreadsheets,
along with simple graphics applications etc etc, before the start of a basic 'Internet', and networking......

Let's SKIP forward to at LEAST say 'Win-8.1' which is arguably/typically used today.....
We still used the old familiar desktop 'Icon' system, although countless MILLIONS of new & exciting 'Programs',
(now called 'Apps') abound, for EVERY scope of science/physics/maths/graphics/ that 'one' could imagine....

So WHAT's changed now, in the last year or two, with 'Windows-10'...... ??
FIRSTLY,and MOSTLY, is the 'types' of DEVICES now running such 'Operating Systems' AND 'Apps' now !!!!!!!
We now have 'Smart-Phones', and 'Tablets' what ever the brand, and now 'laptops' (the old name xx) with touch
screens....   EVERYTHING is now GEARED towards that..... For THESE devices the "Mouse" of old is finished !
We 'Touch' screens to 'Drag', 'Resize', traverse, select......, and THAT is why the new 'Default' Win-10 'Screen
looks like CRAP ! hahaha.....  They are 'Grooming' you for SIMPLE, (yet UGLY purple, blue, green etc flat 2D
'squares', because you are supposed to use your FINGERS now ! xx  on a simplified 'screen'......
THANK GOD we are 'ALLOWED' to change settings....  >:( >:(

It may surprise you that "I" am also a tech-head, and a programmer, and a web developer, though now in my 60's.
I've seen SO many 'Languages' come & go, (though still have my favorites x), but mostly being the demise of 'Flash',
Java/Javascript, and now nearly everything being done within the 'new' "HTML-5" standards......
But we digress !!!!!!!!!   The big PUSH today, is towards the TOTALLY MOBILE hardware like phones & 'tablets'.
which obviously utilize 'Touch-Screens', and there-in lies the future.  One of my 4 laptops is an Acer Aspire which I
love. It has a touch screen, and folds down like a large 'tablet'.  Best of both worlds  xx

I decided not to go into the aspect of "CLOUD" based servers, these days, either in relation to the 'APPS' themselves
often running on some 'server' these days, OR to discuss the 'portability' of our 'apps' "DATA" itself.....
However.... "COMPUTING" has changed.... and for a TEAM of Architects & Engineers etc, that's fine........
I'm still an "Old-Bastard"..... and want MY work/data, on MY computer(s), in MY home, under MY control/access.
And LIKE NOW, when I switch off from work, I pour another glass of bubbly !!! hahaha....
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 02:59:38 pm by GlennSprigg »
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2018, 03:51:50 pm »
I'm probably the worst person you could ever meet to fall within your criteria. I'm 16, and have built a 486, Pentium Pro, and Slot 1 P3. I know them in and out, and have even learned C and have been able to program for them.

As technology advances, there are better expectations. You wouldn't expect a man from the 1700's to bathe himself, but today it's mandatory on a daily, if not almost daily basis. As we get faster computers with more complex operating systems, we also encounter shithead moves from the developers who make those operating systems.

I think Windows 10 has gotten more love than Windows 8, which was panned so hard it might as well have been an omelet. I personally use Windows Server 2016 because I have an educational license, and I find it's Windows 10, just without all the bullshit.

Even as a 16 year old squirt, it pains me to hear that Windows XP is now considered "old" as I damn well know it's not old (I still use it on one of my machines today). I actually derive quite a lot of enjoyment working with legacy hardware, though. It's an interesting world I was never around for, but I can now catch up on.

I coined a saying for myself. Life is like walking into a room after a massive argument went down, and you have no idea what it was all about. You have to pick up the pieces and figure out what happened before you entered the room.
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Offline senso

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2018, 04:15:44 pm »
Win XP is was released in 2001, if you have 16 years, XP is older than you!

If you dont consider an OS old when it has 17 years, an OS that was launched at the time of DDR2 and AGP and expect it to be maintained in hardware totally different, we now have more RAM tipically in a cheapo-ish system than that OS usually saw as an HDD, I still remember having a 20GB HDD and 256MB of RAM, my work laptop has 16GB of RAM, my personal one 32GB.

Thats an OS made on the times of single and dual core systems, throw a Coffee Lake or a Ryzen and it will see a lot more than that..

Its "old", because it IS OLD, its discontinued and there are no more security updates for it, run it at your will, its unsafe.
 
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Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 04:19:33 pm »
Win XP is was released in 2001, if you have 16 years, XP is older than you!

If you dont consider an OS old when it has 17 years, an OS that was launched at the time of DDR2 and AGP and expect it to be maintained in hardware totally different, we now have more RAM tipically in a cheapo-ish system than that OS usually saw as an HDD, I still remember having a 20GB HDD and 256MB of RAM, my work laptop has 16GB of RAM, my personal one 32GB.

Thats an OS made on the times of single and dual core systems, throw a Coffee Lake or a Ryzen and it will see a lot more than that..

Its "old", because it IS OLD, its discontinued and there are no more security updates for it, run it at your will, its unsafe.

I'm aware of the risks of running it, and I run it on a legacy machine that cannot use modern operating systems properly.

The reason I don't say it's old is because I'm not old. I'm aware software has a smaller lifespan than the average human, but I still consider it somewhat modern.
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Online taydin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 04:42:44 pm »
I spend most of my working day in front of a linux computer, and I only use my windows computer for software that is windows only (like circuit studio, alibre design, mind manager etc).

What I hate most about windows:

- Software installation/removal: It just isn't possible to completely get rid of an installed piece of software. There's always crap left behind in the filesystem, the registry, or other dependency software (like Microsoft Visual C/C++ redistributable garbage. Right now, I am seeing that I have 16 MSVC redistributables installed, and I have no idea which one was installed by which software). The worst offenders are Microsoft's own software packages. Try installing the visual c++ compiler and then removing it :) It stuffs itself so hard into the OS, there's just no way to cleanly remove it.

- The fact that windows itself is spyware. If you have a microphone, a webcam, or any other type of sensor, chances are some component of windows is tapping into it. Some of you might think this is just too paranoid, but Microsoft's track record justifies this kind of paranoia. There are many software package that just plain don't work if you don't divulge information about yourself. Last I checked, visual C++ compiler suite was not usable unless you create a microsoft account.

I hope alternatives to windows only software will become available and I can put my windows machine to use as an extra linux machine :)
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Online rrinker

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 05:10:57 pm »
 Windows 8 pretty much failed because like Vista, 8.0 was a mess, and things were very difficult. Still annoys me working with customers who have Server 2012 instead of 2012 R2 (Windows 8.1) because especially when using remote access software, the slight lag even the best of them has makes it a real pain to access common things like the log out and restart. Combine remote access with a VMWare console and you can just forget it - better home the VMTools are installed correctly so you can externally trigger a proper restart.

8.1 changes all that, 8.1 was actually quite usable. But it wasn't around all that long. I did have one machine running it, the rest stayed at 7, until the free Windows 10 updates.

Have a Microsoft account - while they may end up selling your registration information, I don;t think is such a big deal. First, the email I use to sign up is my "throwaway" one I use with any services that require me to supply an email address, and second, if Microsoft isn't selling it, one of those others almost surely is, so it's already too late on that one. I have another for friends and family (and even then, not all family - the ones I'm always removing malware from don't even have my other email address). And I never get any unsolicited junk on that one, EVER. I've had the throwaway one long before I had a Microsoft account for anything, and there was no noticeable difference in spam volume after adding a Microsoft account.

What you really get from this - I can work on both work AND personal stuff, anywhere, any time. We're Office 365 at work, so that comes with a large OneDrive space. A personal Microsoft account also comes with OneDrive space, just not as much.  I have both Microsoft accounts active on all my computers, one reason being so I can use the 5 licenses of Office from the O365 account to have the applications on my home machines as well as my work laptop. Work laptop, my only laptop, also has things like KiCad installed, so wherever I go, I can open one of my projects and work on it. This laptop is NOT a touch screen, I will not get a touchscreen laptop unless there ends up being no other choice in the future - but I still won't use it as such, I don;t need fingerprints on my screen. It's bad enough keeping an actual tablet clean. And there is no such thing as a good trackpad - sorry, even the Apple ones suck. Luckily on this laptop it is possible to turn it off, so there is no accidental activation. I always use an external mouse.

I guess that's my computer equivalent of "get off my lawn". I'm old, I started programming with the release of the TRS-80 Model 1. I am a year younger than the PDP-8, but never used one. I did use a PDP-11 in work, and a PDP-10 (with TOPS 20, so a DEC-20) at school. I sometimes laugh at videos on some channels like LGR, as his relatively young age shows at times when discussing old systems - he has the technical details right, but as someone who was not there at the time those old systems were current state of the art, he sometimes fails to get the "whys". So here I am, the old guy (on the tech side, of 12 co-workers in the same group I work with, only one is also my age, the rest are all on average 20 years younger than me - I have a computer sitting on my desk older than some of them, a 1981 vintage NEC PC-8801A), still keeping up with the latest (partly because I have to - its my job), but I enjoy it, and don't find nearly as many objections to Windows 10 as some seem to. It's been rock solid across my 3 machines plus another at home I built for my GF. Her work laptop constantly has problems, but I'm not sure if it's a Dell problem or Windows 10, or poor configuration from what seems to be a fairly clueless IT team. My work laptop is an HP, the other 3 systems are various vintage desktops I built myself, one is 6 years old, the others are about 2 years old.

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2018, 01:54:10 pm »
Win XP is was released in 2001, if you have 16 years, XP is older than you!

If you dont consider an OS old when it has 17 years, an OS that was launched at the time of DDR2 and AGP and expect it to be maintained in hardware totally different, we now have more RAM tipically in a cheapo-ish system than that OS usually saw as an HDD, I still remember having a 20GB HDD and 256MB of RAM, my work laptop has 16GB of RAM, my personal one 32GB.

Thats an OS made on the times of single and dual core systems, throw a Coffee Lake or a Ryzen and it will see a lot more than that..

Its "old", because it IS OLD, its discontinued and there are no more security updates for it, run it at your will, its unsafe.
That's mostly bullshit propaganda, propagated by MS, to increase sales of new Windows versions.

The registry hack is perfectly safe and will allow XP to continue to receive updates until April 2019. Contrary to what MS say, it's perfectly safe to use on XP Home. If there are problems with updates, then it's certainly no worse than Windows 10 updates, which can cause problems. Even when XP stops getting updated, it's no big deal. Put it behind a decent hardware firewall and use a modern browser, such as Firefox.
 
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2018, 04:28:39 pm »
I have a couple of Windows 10 machines. Once you get rid of all the craplets and turn off all of the intrusive garbage, I think it works fine. It's actually quite pleasant.

I don't particularly like some of the new interfaces, especially the ribbon (nothing to do with 10) and the window design (everything to do with 10), but it's a pretty minor thing. Younger guys I work with LOVE the new interface, so I just chalk it up to me being an old fuddy duddy that doesn't like new things.

Yeah, I rather like 10. It's very stable, and seems pretty responsive/speedy. I may switch my Windows 7 workstation at work to 10 in the near future as well.

IMHO, the key to getting on with 10 if you hate it is to uninstall everything you possibly can, take 10 minutes and shut off all of the intrusive garbage/security holes you can, and pin everything you use to the task bar. More or less, I never actually interact with anything Windows-like in my day to day work. Out of the box, as delivered, Windows 10 is a steaming pile of crap in my opinion.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 04:34:11 pm by John Coloccia »
 

Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2018, 06:59:45 pm »
I spend most of my working day in front of a linux computer, and I only use my windows computer for software that is windows only (like What I hate most about windows:

- Software installation/removal: It just isn't possible to completely get rid of an installed piece of software. There's always crap left behind in the filesystem, the registry, or other dependency software (like Microsoft Visual C/C++ redistributable garbage. Right now, I am seeing that I have 16 MSVC redistributables installed, and I have no idea which one was installed by which software). The worst offenders are Microsoft's own software packages. Try installing the visual c++ compiler and then removing it :) It stuffs itself so hard into the OS, there's just no way to cleanly remove it.


OMG.  Those that live in glass houses...

I have more trouble installing software on Linux than on Win10.  It usually goes something like this:

Install(app)
Run app installer
loop:
Attempt to run software
Can't find libfoo.so
google libfoo and software name
find libfoo
If I'm lucky: apt-get, oh no, this system is Centos yum... to install libfoo
If not... recursive call of Install(libfoo)
goto loop

Now you go to uninstall the software.  Do you remember all those extras you needed?  Does something else you installed use them?  You don't know, so you have a bunch of libraries on your linux system that you maybe no longer need.  How is that different to C runtimes being left behind on Windows?

Not to mention the fact that each distribution "knows best" where to put things.  Try copying a web site that you tested on Centos 7 to Ubuntu.  Is it /etc/apache2 or /etc/httpd this week?  Where does your ssl certificate go?

One of our products runs on XP up, iOS, OSX and Android.  Oh what fun...

There's no one OS better than the other IMO.  Just different problems.
 
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Offline IanMacdonald

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 07:49:18 pm »
I have more trouble installing software on Linux than on Win10. 

The APT Linux installer suffers from the 'DLL Hell' problem of Windows, but on steroids. Not only that, it's often impossible to install an app without all kinds of other crap being pulled in along with it. The reverse can also be true, try to apt-get remove something you don't want or need, and it threatens to remove something totally unrelated but vital along with it.  :wtf:

I can install Office 97 on Windows 10, or any combination of versions so long as the OS is not too much older than the Office version. When I upgraded Debian from Etch to Jessie, my entire KDE3 desktop went down the tubes, and there was no way I could get it back. I was forced to use KDE4, which was not only a pile of poo but didn't have the things I needed anyway. It was a total disaster and I had to restore from a backup.

When I upgraded Jessie to Wheezy, a similar thing happened in that K3B was replaced by a new version that didn't work. I couldn't get the version that worked back, either. In the finish I just decided to forget it use the Windows box for optical disk burning.

Basically, there is way too much interdependence of components in Linux distros.

I really wish there was something like http://portableapps.com for Linux. Use their stuff all the time on Windows, not so much because I need the app to be portable but because I know it won't knacker-up the OS by pumping a ton of sh*t into the system folders.  Though, being able to transfer the app to another box without losing its settings is another plus point.  ;)

 
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Offline llkiwi2006

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2018, 08:11:30 pm »
Even when XP stops getting updated, it's no big deal. Put it behind a decent hardware firewall and use a modern browser, such as Firefox.

Not a good idea, there are attacks that cannot be stopped by the browser sandbox and must be patched in kernel, such as the recent fiasco with meltdown and spectre.  There are also wormable attacks which do require any user interaction to infect, although they are very rare these days. Also even a decent firewall is unlikely to stop everything such as a new 0 day. In my opinion firewalls are really just an illusion of security, not a replacement for patching vulnerabilities and properly training users to not download malware.

edit: formatting
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2018, 08:37:51 pm »
Honestly, the greatest security flaw of any computer is the end user.

If you're not an idiot, you can avoid a decent amount of issues.
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Online taydin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2018, 09:40:44 pm »
There's no one OS better than the other IMO.  Just different problems.

Fair enough, the linux world has its own problems for sure. But with linux, nobody is actively trying to prevent you from understanding what's happening under the hood. With enough expertise (not that I have that much expertise, but i'm trying :) ), you can eventually solve problems. You might have to resort to looking at the source code to understand the problem.

But with windows, you never have that option. Unless you are willing to spend exorbitant amounts of time disassembling a program and understanding how it works, you will eventually get stuck. The manufacturer won't help you, because:

1) it might be an older version which they don't support anymore.

2) you might be using an older version of windows, which they don't support anymore.

3) your hardware might have a configuration which they don't support.

4) you might not have a support contract with them ($$$) so they won't even talk to you.

5) they might not be competent enough to solve the problem, given that the problem might be happening as a result of interaction with other software on that system. You might be competent, but your hands are tied because of lack of documentation and source code.

So in summary, yes, you are right, both have problems. But with linux, there's hope for a resolution, given sufficient expertise. With windows, the point of no hope is very near, so nobody really bothers.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2018, 09:45:43 pm »
Even when XP stops getting updated, it's no big deal. Put it behind a decent hardware firewall and use a modern browser, such as Firefox.

Not a good idea, there are attacks that cannot be stopped by the browser sandbox and must be patched in kernel, such as the recent fiasco with meltdown and spectre.  There are also wormable attacks which do require any user interaction to infect, although they are very rare these days. Also even a decent firewall is unlikely to stop everything such as a new 0 day. In my opinion firewalls are really just an illusion of security, not a replacement for patching vulnerabilities and properly training users to not download malware.

edit: formatting
If the firewall doesn't stop the attack, then it's possible newer versions of Windows are vulnerable to other attacks, which can't be stopped. Using the latest, update Windows version is just an illusion of security. I have old boxes running XP perfectly fine, even with no firewall, although I admit it's not for anything critical: no need to upgrade anything.
 

Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2018, 02:06:57 am »

So in summary, yes, you are right, both have problems. But with linux, there's hope for a resolution, given sufficient expertise.


And therein lies the rub, though I'd say "given sufficient time and expertise".

If I have a problem with some linux package, perhaps, I can find it in the source and fix it.  Creating a new nightmare for myself, especially if it's a system library.  So I submit my change to the maintainer of the package in question and wait.  Maybe they accept it; more likely, NIH1 syndrome takes over and I get ignored, or they deprecate2 the feature I was trying to use or they come up with 'a better' fix that is incompatible with my code.  Now mix this in with LGPL requirements of being able to link with a later version of whatever library had the problem... only if they accept my fix as written will that work.  So now I have to monitor every update to the library that I had 'fixed' and provide patches to my customers to enable my software to continue to work.  No thank you.

For this reason, I static link to the C++ runtime.  No redistributable required.  Sure, if a nasty bug is found in the runtime, I would have to provide an update, but the more that's under my control, the better.

1Not Invented Here: the tendency to reject code/ideas supplied by a third party as it wasn't invented by the person to whom it was submitted.

2FWIW, there are many APIs in Windows that have been deprecated since XP, but I build the product that I work on for XP and as long as .net isn't involved, my code will run on any version of Windows from XP to the latest Windows 10.  It's really not that difficult.
 

Offline justanothercanuck

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 05:13:02 am »
It usually goes something like this:

Install(app)
Run app installer
loop:
Attempt to run software
Can't find libfoo.so
google libfoo and software name
find libfoo
If I'm lucky: apt-get, oh no, this system is Centos yum... to install libfoo
If not... recursive call of Install(libfoo)
goto loop

I don't necessarily buy that...  then again, I don't run the mainstream distros.  If your package manager can't manage/install dependancies properly, then maybe it's your distro's fault. 

That is, unless you're installing random programs from the internet and bypassing your package manager entirely, then you've got nobody to blame there.  :-//
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Offline ikrase

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 05:22:34 am »
Well, the package manager has a pretty limited selection and often is very out of date. And some stuff actually needs to be installed from source.

Unless you want your open source linux computer to be like an iPhone locked to an app store... only free.


 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2018, 05:51:09 am »
It usually goes something like this:

Install(app)
Run app installer
loop:
Attempt to run software
Can't find libfoo.so
google libfoo and software name
find libfoo
If I'm lucky: apt-get, oh no, this system is Centos yum... to install libfoo
If not... recursive call of Install(libfoo)
goto loop

I don't necessarily buy that...  then again, I don't run the mainstream distros.  If your package manager can't manage/install dependancies properly, then maybe it's your distro's fault. 

That is, unless you're installing random programs from the internet and bypassing your package manager entirely, then you've got nobody to blame there.  :-//

Was actually about to say something like this. pacman has none of these issues, but I have found that apt marks X11 packages unused if you remove anything X11 related even if it's not the only thing using it. Seems like a really simple thing to program in...
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Offline CNe7532294

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2018, 06:01:18 am »
Ya.... XP is not old. I used that during highschool and college and my looks are still like I came fresh out of college.  ::) Now whats really old is running programs thru command prompt and using proper syntax. GUI made things too easy that Joe average couldn't keep up. Of course this makes those with computer knowledge more valuable.  ;) The down side to giving Joe average access to computing was that now OSs are loaded with a bunch of crap we don't need nor even touch.  >:D
 

Offline Halcyon

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2018, 06:13:18 am »
I myself have worked in the IT field one way or another for the past 19 years. I hate what Windows has become. Don't get me wrong, I embrace change, when it's for the better, Windows 8/10 is not. It's horrible. It's a bastardised version of Windows 7 while trying to shove cloud services in your face whether you like it or not. It's trying to be like Apple (which is a failure in itself) but Windows managed to even fail at that.

Now more than ever I'm utilising "legacy" hardware and software because I refuse to sign-up to this "cloud culture". Not everything needs to be in the cloud, not everything needs to be it's own "app" application and I shouldn't need to pay yearly fees just to use my computer.

I worked out that it would have actually cost me much more to move all my stuff I use at home into the cloud than to just buy a couple of servers and manage them locally. Not only is speed and uptime far more superior, I have no on-going licencing fees, I can control security from here and guarantee my data is safe.

To this day, I still use Windows XP on an almost daily basis (along with Windows 7). Why? Because it's fast, it works and it's reasonably secure (if you know what you're doing). I've said this before and I'll repeat it again here: Windows 7 will be the last version of Windows I'll ever use, unless Microsoft decide to do a huge back flip. It'll be Linux after Windows 7 becomes dead in the water.
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2018, 06:48:16 am »
I have more trouble installing software on Linux than on Win10.  It usually goes something like this:

Install(app)
Run app installer
loop:
Attempt to run software
Can't find libfoo.so
google libfoo and software name
find libfoo
If I'm lucky: apt-get, oh no, this system is Centos yum... to install libfoo
If not... recursive call of Install(libfoo)
goto loop

Now you go to uninstall the software.  Do you remember all those extras you needed?  Does something else you installed use them?  You don't know, so you have a bunch of libraries on your linux system that you maybe no longer need.  How is that different to C runtimes being left behind on Windows?
Most distro's have thousands of prebuilt applications and so most people do not see this.

If you are seeing this problem, a great solution can be Docker. This lets you install a Ubuntu 16 application in a Ubuntu 16 environment on Centos 7, and you will usually find pre-built Docker containers for the application that have already done all the hard work.

Uninstalling a container is trivial and you are not cluttering the base O/S with application specific library files.

This is probably the future of compatability support in O/S's
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 06:50:28 am by amspire »
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2018, 06:51:15 am »
I myself have worked in the IT field one way or another for the past 19 years. I hate what Windows has become. Don't get me wrong, I embrace change, when it's for the better, Windows 8/10 is not. It's horrible. It's a bastardised version of Windows 7 while trying to shove cloud services in your face whether you like it or not. It's trying to be like Apple (which is a failure in itself) but Windows managed to even fail at that.

Now more than ever I'm utilising "legacy" hardware and software because I refuse to sign-up to this "cloud culture". Not everything needs to be in the cloud, not everything needs to be it's own "app" application and I shouldn't need to pay yearly fees just to use my computer.

I worked out that it would have actually cost me much more to move all my stuff I use at home into the cloud than to just buy a couple of servers and manage them locally. Not only is speed and uptime far more superior, I have no on-going licencing fees, I can control security from here and guarantee my data is safe.

To this day, I still use Windows XP on an almost daily basis (along with Windows 7). Why? Because it's fast, it works and it's reasonably secure (if you know what you're doing). I've said this before and I'll repeat it again here: Windows 7 will be the last version of Windows I'll ever use, unless Microsoft decide to do a huge back flip. It'll be Linux after Windows 7 becomes dead in the water.

I think you would have a good time with 2016, but I largely agree with you.

Honestly, Microsoft hit a high they never got close to returning to with Windows 2000/NT 5. It was a professional, simple, but powerful operating system that could with the stability of DOS. I remember it fondly, and try to use it when I can, but forced obsolescence makes that a bit hard.

I run Arch Linux as a sadly untouched dual boot. Whenever I decide to dual boot with Linux, it always is the same thing. I love using it, but then there's a specific app that Wine won't run and I need to use, so I switch over, use it, but then end up staying and neglecting Linux.

The full death of the NT kernel will be a day I celebrate if it happens. Death to the NT kernel!
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Offline llkiwi2006

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2018, 09:49:19 am »
I love using it, but then there's a specific app that Wine won't run and I need to use, so I switch over, use it, but then end up staying and neglecting Linux.

Why not run it in a windows vm? My only problem is not being able to play windows only games, since graphics acceleration doesn't work that well in VMs (could try pcie passthrough if I had a desktop). Though I see only buying games with linux support as a financial incentive for game devs to support linux.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2018, 10:21:01 am »
I love using it, but then there's a specific app that Wine won't run and I need to use, so I switch over, use it, but then end up staying and neglecting Linux.

Why not run it in a windows vm? My only problem is not being able to play windows only games, since graphics acceleration doesn't work that well in VMs (could try pcie passthrough if I had a desktop). Though I see only buying games with linux support as a financial incentive for game devs to support linux.

That is exactly the reason I don't use a VM. Anything you can't run on Linux is usually either a game, or something unique and computational.
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Offline ikrase

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2018, 11:24:06 am »
Yeah, a lot of things are clumsy in VMs.

For me, the big frustration with Win10 is the forced updates (which break stuff) and the inability to install unsigned drivers.

So our company, which makes very uncommon, specialised hardware, has to pay Verisign the money to say we are Definitely A Real Company (for two years). It seems like protection money. And hobbyists or open source people who can't cough up the five hundred USD are out of luck.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2018, 11:27:09 am »
I run Server 2016 which doesn't have forced updates, and when put into test mode (which it is always in for me),  I can load unsigned drivers.
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Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2018, 11:50:13 am »
So our company, which makes very uncommon, specialised hardware, has to pay Verisign the money to say we are Definitely A Real Company (for two years). It seems like protection money. And hobbyists or open source people who can't cough up the five hundred USD are out of luck.
Any reason you have to pay Verisign? For example, Digicert  have driver signing certificates for $178/year. I assume there are other CAs (Certificate Authorities) selling driver certs.

https://www.digicert.com/code-signing/driver-signing-certificates.htm

The cost is related to the work involved in verifying the identity of the certificate owner and also the responsibility taken on by the CA. If there is a disaster relating to issued certificates and the industry deems that the CA company did not meet their responsibilities adequately, the CA may be removed from the CA stores by Microsoft and browser companies. That basically means the CA company is instantly dead. Just ask DigiNotar.
 
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Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2018, 09:11:05 am »
Honestly, Microsoft hit a high they never got close to returning to with Windows 2000/NT 5. It was a professional, simple, but powerful operating system that could with the stability of DOS. I remember it fondly, and try to use it when I can, but forced obsolescence makes that a bit hard.
I agree with you about Windows 2000, but DOS? That was probably one of the most unstable OSes ever produced. A program crashing would crash the entire OS, unless it used a DOS extender, which would normally stop that. There was no security: any program could own the OS and write whatever it wanted to any part of the memory or the hard drive. Viruses spread quickly, even without the Internet to help!

I don't particularly like some of the new interfaces, especially the ribbon (nothing to do with 10) and the window design (everything to do with 10), but it's a pretty minor thing. Younger guys I work with LOVE the new interface, so I just chalk it up to me being an old fuddy duddy that doesn't like new things.
I hate ribbon too. I thought it was me getting older, but there's an 18 year old where I work who also finds MS Office 2003 easier to use, than the latest version. Personally I don't like the way it takes more clicks of the mouse to perform the same operation, with the newer versions.
 

Offline ciccio

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2018, 09:37:15 am »
I'm really upset with the latest Windows 10 updates/upgrades.
I carried my laptop to a friend's office as a temporary solution to drive a special printer whose driver had been crashed by one Windows 7 update.
I was in a hurry, and even if I was able to restore (easily) the Win 7 machine, I left the laptop connected to allow them to finish some urgent work.
They could not: Windows 10 wanted to update (some hours), and the result was that the update went bad, and it was automatically removed, and the day after the cycle began again: update, remove update, and so on... Windows did not gave me an explanation (or maybe it did, but where can I find it?).
After one full week I was really VERY upset, so I took my Win 7 DVD and installed Win7....
What I saw was a total loss of respect for the paying customer. The want MY computer to do what THEY want..
I'm not a real IT tech, but I have some experience, and this is unacceptable.
STOP.
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Offline Halcyon

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2018, 10:07:05 am »
What I saw was a total loss of respect for the paying customer. The want MY computer to do what THEY want..

Now you know what Apple users have to deal with. But I agree with you, as Windows/PC users, this is unacceptable.
 

Offline ovnr

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2018, 10:23:28 am »
The whole "Yes, you're the customer, but I'm going to do whatever I want and you'll just have to put up with it" is a massive load of shit, whether it's games or OSes or anything else. You want to install a patch or update? Not unless I want you to install the patch or update. I always set everything to manual updates.

I get pretty angry about games forcing updates before you can play them too. Fine, disable multiplayer and online shit - not using it anyway! - but let me play the singleplayer bit at whatever version I like, thank you very much. And yes, I'll happily pirate something just to retain control, and not feel bad for a moment. No respect for me? No money for you.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2018, 11:27:09 am »
The whole "Yes, you're the customer, but I'm going to do whatever I want and you'll just have to put up with it" is a massive load of shit, whether it's games or OSes or anything else. You want to install a patch or update? Not unless I want you to install the patch or update. I always set everything to manual updates.

I get pretty angry about games forcing updates before you can play them too. Fine, disable multiplayer and online shit - not using it anyway! - but let me play the singleplayer bit at whatever version I like, thank you very much. And yes, I'll happily pirate something just to retain control, and not feel bad for a moment. No respect for me? No money for you.

The difficult bit is that this attitude leads to people being very lax to applying updates to their system. This does not only pose huge risks to their own system, but also to that of others. Add to that the issue of literally millions of different configurations existing, which all needed to be supported. This often resulted in very complex and shaky situations. This is what Microsoft needed and intended to fix by forcing everyone into the same upgrade scheme.

I fully agree with having the final say over your own system, but also have to concede that there was an issue that needed to be addressed. There doesn't really seem to be a way to solve both issues without compromise.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2018, 11:28:43 am »
Honestly, Microsoft hit a high they never got close to returning to with Windows 2000/NT 5. It was a professional, simple, but powerful operating system that could with the stability of DOS. I remember it fondly, and try to use it when I can, but forced obsolescence makes that a bit hard.
I agree with you about Windows 2000, but DOS? That was probably one of the most unstable OSes ever produced. A program crashing would crash the entire OS, unless it used a DOS extender, which would normally stop that. There was no security: any program could own the OS and write whatever it wanted to any part of the memory or the hard drive. Viruses spread quickly, even without the Internet to help!

Bad example. DOS will idle forever though...

Windows 2000 is amazingly stable though. It was a blue moon series of things that Microsoft managed to accidentally do right.
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Offline ovnr

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2018, 12:42:59 pm »
I fully agree with having the final say over your own system, but also have to concede that there was an issue that needed to be addressed. There doesn't really seem to be a way to solve both issues without compromise.

As for OS-level updates, the issue would be much smaller if MS was a bit more honest about what's a critical security update with low probability of messing up your system, and what was essentially fluff.

I wouldn't mind if it aggressively prompted me to install an actual important update for a vuln that was being actively exploited. But full OS updates that add/remove features, reset settings, and so on? No. That can be done when it's convenient for me. I'm aware that it fragments the user base and complicates MS's job, but I'm not going to shed any tears over that.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2018, 12:52:01 pm »
As for OS-level updates, the issue would be much smaller if MS was a bit more honest about what's a critical security update with low probability of messing up your system, and what was essentially fluff.

I wouldn't mind if it aggressively prompted me to install an actual important update for a vuln that was being actively exploited. But full OS updates that add/remove features, reset settings, and so on? No. That can be done when it's convenient for me. I'm aware that it fragments the user base and complicates MS's job, but I'm not going to shed any tears over that.
You can defer updates for up to a year.
 

Offline gnif

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2018, 01:48:50 pm »
I have more trouble installing software on Linux than on Win10. 

The APT Linux installer suffers from the 'DLL Hell' problem of Windows, but on steroids. Not only that, it's often impossible to install an app without all kinds of other crap being pulled in along with it. The reverse can also be true, try to apt-get remove something you don't want or need, and it threatens to remove something totally unrelated but vital along with it.  :wtf:

I can install Office 97 on Windows 10, or any combination of versions so long as the OS is not too much older than the Office version. When I upgraded Debian from Etch to Jessie, my entire KDE3 desktop went down the tubes, and there was no way I could get it back. I was forced to use KDE4, which was not only a pile of poo but didn't have the things I needed anyway. It was a total disaster and I had to restore from a backup.

When I upgraded Jessie to Wheezy, a similar thing happened in that K3B was replaced by a new version that didn't work. I couldn't get the version that worked back, either. In the finish I just decided to forget it use the Windows box for optical disk burning.

Basically, there is way too much interdependence of components in Linux distros.

I really wish there was something like http://portableapps.com for Linux. Use their stuff all the time on Windows, not so much because I need the app to be portable but because I know it won't knacker-up the OS by pumping a ton of sh*t into the system folders.  Though, being able to transfer the app to another box without losing its settings is another plus point.  ;)

I am sorry but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of APT. If you do not ask stupid things of apt, such as mixing 'stable' and 'testing' or trying to add Ubuntu repositories to a Debian install, or visa versa, or using third party repositories, there are no problems at all.

APT doesn't suffer from 'DLL Hell'. Applications use shared objects to prevent code re-use, the application developer decides what libraries they are going to use, and link against. The application will refuse to run at all if the libraries are not there as the preloader (LD) will not be able to satisfy the dependencies. In short, it's not a whole lot of other crap, its a whole lot of required dependencies to make the application function.

The KDE upgrade issue you had was not Debian's fault, you chose to upgrade your entire operating system which means that code that KDE3 relies on will no longer exist in supporting libraries. It would be like trying to keep using the Windows XP shell on Windows 10, it simply would not work. There is no incentive for developers to maintain prior versions of software like this either. Debian dropped KDE3 because the developers dropped it, as such it was un-maintained, it's that simple.

It honestly sounds like you upgraded for upgrade sake... did you need to? Debian continue to back port and provide security updates for prior releases for a very long time, which is why it gets used in commercial environments on production servers.

Don't get me wrong, I cringed at what happened to Gnome with Gnome Shell and all that junk too, I moved to Mint for a while for my desktop due to that mess. But again it wasn't Debian's fault, it was the idiots that were in control of the Gnome project.

Apt also tracks auto added packages. When you remove a package that auto installed packages, and nothing depends on those packages anymore, apt will tell you what they are and tells you that you can run 'apt-get autoremove' to remove them.

If a package is missing a dependency as part of it's install, contact the package maintainer and let them know of their mistake. To be honest though in my 20 years of professional use of Debian I have NEVER seen apt do this when using the official repositories. The only times I have seen this kind of problem is when the system has been screwed with, as mentioned above (usually ubuntu repositories on debian), or it is some third party program such as skype or steam, which are not part of the official debian repository, and for damn good reason.

The deb packaging scripts when building ensure that all shared library dependencies are satisfied and will refuse to build the package if they are not. They even warn when linking against shared objects that are not in use.

And finally... it can't be that bad if my novice 12 year old daughter installed Debian from scratch, messes around, installs games, apps, etc, and has no problems at all. My wife who is not a tech head at all has been using Debian on her laptop for 8 years now, not a single complaint or problem.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:53:40 pm by gnif »
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Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2018, 03:28:10 pm »
I am sorry but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of APT. If you do not ask stupid things of apt, such as mixing 'stable' and 'testing' or trying to add Ubuntu repositories to a Debian install, or visa versa, or using third party repositories, there are no problems at all.
The trouble is that if you have one O/S, and you have to run something, you do what it takes to run it. That is the reason people end up enabling options that then cause problems.

I have the Maya 2012 animation program. Say I was running Ubuntu 16.04 and I absolutely need my Maya 2012 running. I go to Autodesk and it says that 64 bit Maya runs on Red Hat® Enterprise Linux® 5.5 WS and Fedora™ 14. I am going to have many, many hours or days or weeks of "fun" trying to make it run on my Ubuntu 16. Down the track, the library gymnastics I used to patch a solution will haunt me.

I am not bagging Linux, because you can have the same problem in Windows.

It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2018, 03:39:37 pm »
It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
Judging by how Microsoft is doing things at the moment, a new OS can only mean pain. Forget control over your own data, expect required online and cloud services everywhere, forget keeping things on your network private and expect paying continuously. People don't want the desktop variant of what mobile OSs already do, yet that's where we're heading.
 

Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2018, 11:14:32 pm »
It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
Judging by how Microsoft is doing things at the moment, a new OS can only mean pain. Forget control over your own data, expect required online and cloud services everywhere, forget keeping things on your network private and expect paying continuously. People don't want the desktop variant of what mobile OSs already do, yet that's where we're heading.
The trouble is the you cannot see the O/S they have been working for 4 years on now, so you are judging based on things like Office 365 and Windows 10 who's main purpose is to wean us off Windows XP, 7 and 8.1. I am sure Microsoft absolute hate Windows 10 and cannot wait to send it into retirement.

When you have grown to accept the absurdities of Windows 7 and friends, you get numb to the issues:

The junk, including 3rd party drivers in the kernel, that can crash the O/S and that has no reason to be there.
The need to install programs as Administrator.
The need to screw up the base O/S by adding all the comparatility junk there.
The absolute nightmare that is Windows Updates. (It is a nightmare for Microsoft)
The time it takes to install Windows fully or repair Windows.
The impossibility of trying to secure an O/S full of junk in the kernal.
The lack of any truly efficient way to back up Windows and programs.
The need to have to install programs. (Installation is not a necessary step.)
The impossibility of moving an installed program simply to a new Windows or to the cloud without any re-installation.
The registry that keeps growing like a memory leak.
The way an old Windows usually never starts and runs as fast as it did when first installed.

Ok. You indirectly paid Microsoft $50 when you bought your bundled Windows 7 PC seven years ago and you haven't paid Microsoft a cent since including the Windows 10 update. You have never paid anything for the free upgrades. I get it - you like not paying for the services you are using from a commercial company and want it to continue forever.

I hate the idea of paying for a new O/S, but with all the capabilities Microsoft now has, I am fascinated to see how well they do. They probably will not get it 100% right in 2020, but I think they will get it over 50% right with a path to improve. If they get to 50% on the first try, and they do not force us to use the cloud unsafely, I will probably give them go.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2018, 11:35:29 pm »
It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
Judging by how Microsoft is doing things at the moment, a new OS can only mean pain. Forget control over your own data, expect required online and cloud services everywhere, forget keeping things on your network private and expect paying continuously. People don't want the desktop variant of what mobile OSs already do, yet that's where we're heading.
The trouble is the you cannot see the O/S they have been working for 4 years on now, so you are judging based on things like Office 365 and Windows 10 who's main purpose is to wean us off Windows XP, 7 and 8.1. I am sure Microsoft absolute hate Windows 10 and cannot wait to send it into retirement.

When you have grown to accept the absurdities of Windows 7 and friends, you get numb to the issues:

The junk, including 3rd party drivers in the kernel, that can crash the O/S and that has no reason to be there.
The need to install programs as Administrator.
The need to screw up the base O/S by adding all the comparatility junk there.
The absolute nightmare that is Windows Updates. (It is a nightmare for Microsoft)
The time it takes to install Windows fully or repair Windows.
The impossibility of trying to secure an O/S full of junk in the kernal.
The lack of any truly efficient way to back up Windows and programs.
The need to have to install programs. (Installation is not a necessary step.)
The impossibility of moving an installed program simply to a new Windows or to the cloud without any re-installation.
The registry that keeps growing like a memory leak.
The way an old Windows usually never starts and runs as fast as it did when first installed.

Ok. You indirectly paid Microsoft $50 when you bought your bundled Windows 7 PC seven years ago and you haven't paid Microsoft a cent since including the Windows 10 update. You have never paid anything for the free upgrades. I get it - you like not paying for the services you are using from a commercial company and want it to continue forever.

I hate the idea of paying for a new O/S, but with all the capabilities Microsoft now has, I am fascinated to see how well they do. They probably will not get it 100% right in 2020, but I think they will get it over 50% right with a path to improve. If they get to 50% on the first try, and they do not force us to use the cloud unsafely, I will probably give them go.
Why do you seem to have so much optimism? Going on their previous track record, MS will just make it more difficult for the average user, to keep control of their PC. Windows will just get worse, not better.
 
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Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2018, 12:34:28 am »
Why do you seem to have so much optimism? Going on their previous track record, MS will just make it more difficult for the average user, to keep control of their PC. Windows will just get worse, not better.
Because the new CEO is not Steve Balmer, and the fact that he was bought at a time of a failing  Windows. Because they have employed brilliant non-Microsoft people. Because they now absolutely love Docker, Kubernetes and lots of other OS stuff. Because they are massively running Linux. The guys designing the future of Windows know Linux backwards. (Don't be surprised if the new O/S can run Linux programs perfectly.) Because they are prepared to almost give Windows 10 away over 6 years to create the opportunity to make a new O/S. Because with the release of Windows 10, one of the chief Microsoft guys said it was that last Windows version. Because they said on initial release that Windows 10 ends in 2020 and long term support ends in 2025 or earlier for all current Windows versions and in the last 4 years, that has never changed.

Microsoft is not a stupid company - they have done a brilliant job keeping Windows going for 25+ years. Their problem has been that to fix Windows, they need to take a big leap and that could never happen under any previous CEO. Steve Gates was too tied to the old Windows and Balmer was only a business man - he couldn't drive technical revolution. Windows 8 is his legacy.

I get the impression that some people think that the results of 6 years work by a massive company and with the smartest people in the industry will be another pathetic Windows 8 attempt. I don't know why.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2018, 08:14:20 am »
Why do you seem to have so much optimism? Going on their previous track record, MS will just make it more difficult for the average user, to keep control of their PC. Windows will just get worse, not better.
Exactly. I don't really share the issues taken either. Windows updates are a problem, but are addressed by the new approach. I don't quite see how things like installing a program again on another sytem are an issue. macOS and Android don't do that any differently.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #42 on: February 20, 2018, 08:23:01 am »
Because the new CEO is not Steve Balmer, and the fact that he was bought at a time of a failing  Windows. Because they have employed brilliant non-Microsoft people. Because they now absolutely love Docker, Kubernetes and lots of other OS stuff. Because they are massively running Linux. The guys designing the future of Windows know Linux backwards. (Don't be surprised if the new O/S can run Linux programs perfectly.) Because they are prepared to almost give Windows 10 away over 6 years to create the opportunity to make a new O/S. Because with the release of Windows 10, one of the chief Microsoft guys said it was that last Windows version. Because they said on initial release that Windows 10 ends in 2020 and long term support ends in 2025 or earlier for all current Windows versions and in the last 4 years, that has never changed.

Microsoft is not a stupid company - they have done a brilliant job keeping Windows going for 25+ years. Their problem has been that to fix Windows, they need to take a big leap and that could never happen under any previous CEO. Steve Gates was too tied to the old Windows and Balmer was only a business man - he couldn't drive technical revolution. Windows 8 is his legacy.

I get the impression that some people think that the results of 6 years work by a massive company and with the smartest people in the industry will be another pathetic Windows 8 attempt. I don't know why.
Historically, Microsoft has been about backwards compatibility in a major way. Many of the issues we see today are a result of choices made in the past and kept for the sake of backwards compatibility. Microsoft understand like no other that when you start cutting the compatibility, people have no reason not to go somewhere else. If you have to start anew, why not start somewhere else?

This means that if they come up with something else, it needs to be massively compatible with the past. That's what they have done so succesfully all these years and what they will undoubtedly continue to do so. This means being stuck with the same choices once more.
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2018, 09:45:28 am »

...Going on their previous track record, MS will just make it more difficult for the average user, to keep control of their PC.

Windows will just get worse, not better.


Already there, Windows 10  ;D

I wonder how many software authors are in the poor house and or or nuthouse  |O keeping up with MS BS

 

Offline gildasd

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2018, 05:51:45 pm »
It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
Judging by how Microsoft is doing things at the moment, a new OS can only mean pain. Forget control over your own data, expect required online and cloud services everywhere, forget keeping things on your network private and expect paying continuously. People don't want the desktop variant of what mobile OSs already do, yet that's where we're heading.
The trouble is the you cannot see the O/S they have been working for 4 years on now, so you are judging based on things like Office 365 and Windows 10 who's main purpose is to wean us off Windows XP, 7 and 8.1. I am sure Microsoft absolute hate Windows 10 and cannot wait to send it into retirement.

When you have grown to accept the absurdities of Windows 7 and friends, you get numb to the issues:

The junk, including 3rd party drivers in the kernel, that can crash the O/S and that has no reason to be there.
The need to install programs as Administrator.
The need to screw up the base O/S by adding all the comparatility junk there.
The absolute nightmare that is Windows Updates. (It is a nightmare for Microsoft)
The time it takes to install Windows fully or repair Windows.
The impossibility of trying to secure an O/S full of junk in the kernal.
The lack of any truly efficient way to back up Windows and programs.
The need to have to install programs. (Installation is not a necessary step.)
The impossibility of moving an installed program simply to a new Windows or to the cloud without any re-installation.
The registry that keeps growing like a memory leak.
The way an old Windows usually never starts and runs as fast as it did when first installed.

Ok. You indirectly paid Microsoft $50 when you bought your bundled Windows 7 PC seven years ago and you haven't paid Microsoft a cent since including the Windows 10 update. You have never paid anything for the free upgrades. I get it - you like not paying for the services you are using from a commercial company and want it to continue forever.

I hate the idea of paying for a new O/S, but with all the capabilities Microsoft now has, I am fascinated to see how well they do. They probably will not get it 100% right in 2020, but I think they will get it over 50% right with a path to improve. If they get to 50% on the first try, and they do not force us to use the cloud unsafely, I will probably give them go.
Why do you seem to have so much optimism? Going on their previous track record, MS will just make it more difficult for the average user, to keep control of their PC. Windows will just get worse, not better.

I have bought three licenses of Win7... One stand alone, the other two OEM with laptops.
The last one the 29th of December 2017 because the clients security requirements made Win10 a no go and I have not sufficient experience with Win8 to leant to learn and test it in a basically no internet environment (emails and basic websites, no downloads).
A bit of a last minute despair buy...

Also had to get crap a android phone devoid of camera and GPS...
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 07:01:17 pm by gildasd »
I'm electronically illiterate
 

Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2018, 07:18:45 pm »
Historically, Microsoft has been about backwards compatibility in a major way. Many of the issues we see today are a result of choices made in the past and kept for the sake of backwards compatibility. Microsoft understand like no other that when you start cutting the compatibility, people have no reason not to go somewhere else.


Indeed.  They used to and no doubt still do have long lists of 'apps that must run' before a new version of Windows can be released.

As I pointed out before, build something for XP with a current compiler and it will run on Windows 10.  Can you even build an application for a 17 year old Linux release with a current compiler and have it run on all current distributions, without having to install any dependencies in either case?  If so, details please.

 

Offline senso

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2018, 08:33:19 pm »
It is just that neither is a good representation of what an O/S could be in 2018. Windows 10 was a 6 year filler to give Microsoft time to develop a new type of O/S that will be more maintainable, compatible and securable. Win10 is not the start of anything, it is hopefully the end of the archaic  Windows O/S model.
Judging by how Microsoft is doing things at the moment, a new OS can only mean pain. Forget control over your own data, expect required online and cloud services everywhere, forget keeping things on your network private and expect paying continuously. People don't want the desktop variant of what mobile OSs already do, yet that's where we're heading.
The trouble is the you cannot see the O/S they have been working for 4 years on now, so you are judging based on things like Office 365 and Windows 10 who's main purpose is to wean us off Windows XP, 7 and 8.1. I am sure Microsoft absolute hate Windows 10 and cannot wait to send it into retirement.

When you have grown to accept the absurdities of Windows 7 and friends, you get numb to the issues:

The junk, including 3rd party drivers in the kernel, that can crash the O/S and that has no reason to be there.
The need to install programs as Administrator.
The need to screw up the base O/S by adding all the comparatility junk there.
The absolute nightmare that is Windows Updates. (It is a nightmare for Microsoft)
The time it takes to install Windows fully or repair Windows.
The impossibility of trying to secure an O/S full of junk in the kernal.
The lack of any truly efficient way to back up Windows and programs.
The need to have to install programs. (Installation is not a necessary step.)
The impossibility of moving an installed program simply to a new Windows or to the cloud without any re-installation.
The registry that keeps growing like a memory leak.
The way an old Windows usually never starts and runs as fast as it did when first installed.

Ok. You indirectly paid Microsoft $50 when you bought your bundled Windows 7 PC seven years ago and you haven't paid Microsoft a cent since including the Windows 10 update. You have never paid anything for the free upgrades. I get it - you like not paying for the services you are using from a commercial company and want it to continue forever.

I hate the idea of paying for a new O/S, but with all the capabilities Microsoft now has, I am fascinated to see how well they do. They probably will not get it 100% right in 2020, but I think they will get it over 50% right with a path to improve. If they get to 50% on the first try, and they do not force us to use the cloud unsafely, I will probably give them go.

I have crashed my GPU drivers a lot due to unstable OC, they recover, Windows shows me message on the corner that they crashed and recovered, or there are no drivers for linux, it works with magic.
Because on Linux you dont have sudo...
Windows sells precisely due to that compability and removing it makes people angry.
Maintaining multiple OS versions is always a pain, but there are tons of linux flavors, up to then, or you also bitch about that?
Get an SSD, Win 7 installs in less than 15 minutes, Win10 in less than 10 minutes, spinning rust is your problem, not the OS.
True on that, also the clusterfuck that is the registry.
You can do full disk images, easy to do with lots of different software, from Macrium to rsyncing the drive.
Lots of programs run without being installed, blame the company that makes then and the feels the need to litter the registry with crap from top to bottom because MUH licences.
Thats on the 3rd parties as well, they hard link tons of crap on registry. Same on linux, install something and move the folder, kaput..
Already addressed above.
I have Win8 installs with over 3 years, the same 20 seconds boot time, its user error, not an OS problem.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2018, 10:41:01 pm »
Debates about the functionality or otherwise of Windows versions are of little interest to me, since I long ago came to the conclusion that Microsoft itself, as a corporate entity, is poison. The social philosophy and objectives of Microsoft's upper management, and hence the company, are toxic. Making Microsoft a direct, hostile enemy of Humankind, Freedom and technological progress.

I could go into lengthy detail about why, but that's not the point here. I just came to post a link to an interesting story. It's one small example of Microsoft's evil bullshit.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/recycling/news.php?q=1519149575
Innovative Engineer Sentenced to Prison for Recycling Old Computers Instead of Trashing Them


Incidentally that story misses the point. They attribute Microsoft's legal objections to his recycling efforts to 'lost profits'. But I think that's incorrect.

Microsoft is trying to force the world onto the Win10 'arse-rape platform.' In which the App-rental, media pay-to-play, DRM-enforcement and Cloud-storage models are bad enough, but really only a distraction from the primary objective. That is the Big Brother surveillance hidden spyware built into the platform, plus the facility to apply even more spyware in future, via the forced auto-updates channel. And this is being done hand-in-hand with government spy agencies, who LOVE the whole idea of digital enslavement of the people.

Any attempts to recycle old PCs back into use, with old Microsoft OSs, lessens the market share of the MS-Gov spyware-OS project that is Win10 (and future versions), running on newer Intel CPUs with backdoors built into the CPU itself.

And so recycling must be stamped out. And they'll NEVER admit the real reasons.
Collecting old scopes, logic analyzers, and unfinished projects. http://everist.org
 
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Offline GlennSprigg

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #48 on: February 21, 2018, 01:21:32 pm »
WOW!!!  Thank you ALL for your contributions. This was unexpected !!!   :)
Especially, to the young ones that have been involved more than I gave them credit for !!
To the many, who commented on the 'merits' of "this/that", I would like to clarify something !
I was NOT in any way 'knocking' the benefits/needs of/for "change", because that is ALWAYS
the case....  Hardware/software/demands/details/graphics/diversification... etc, always dominate
regarding the needs of 'tomorrow', irrespective of the 'OS', hardware, or software versions....
I was MAINLY trying to emphasize the trend towards TOUCH screens these days, like phones &
tablets etc, and for THAT reason 'Win-10' was trying to bridge that 'gap' to the 'Future'....

 

Offline senso

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2018, 01:51:42 pm »
Debates about the functionality or otherwise of Windows versions are of little interest to me, since I long ago came to the conclusion that Microsoft itself, as a corporate entity, is poison. The social philosophy and objectives of Microsoft's upper management, and hence the company, are toxic. Making Microsoft a direct, hostile enemy of Humankind, Freedom and technological progress.

I could go into lengthy detail about why, but that's not the point here. I just came to post a link to an interesting story. It's one small example of Microsoft's evil bullshit.

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/environment/recycling/news.php?q=1519149575
Innovative Engineer Sentenced to Prison for Recycling Old Computers Instead of Trashing Them


Incidentally that story misses the point. They attribute Microsoft's legal objections to his recycling efforts to 'lost profits'. But I think that's incorrect.

Microsoft is trying to force the world onto the Win10 'arse-rape platform.' In which the App-rental, media pay-to-play, DRM-enforcement and Cloud-storage models are bad enough, but really only a distraction from the primary objective. That is the Big Brother surveillance hidden spyware built into the platform, plus the facility to apply even more spyware in future, via the forced auto-updates channel. And this is being done hand-in-hand with government spy agencies, who LOVE the whole idea of digital enslavement of the people.

Any attempts to recycle old PCs back into use, with old Microsoft OSs, lessens the market share of the MS-Gov spyware-OS project that is Win10 (and future versions), running on newer Intel CPUs with backdoors built into the CPU itself.

And so recycling must be stamped out. And they'll NEVER admit the real reasons.

Big boy Intel ME is present from Sandy Bridge and up, play with FITC and an ME dump if you dont believe, it can be disabled by corrupting it at least in Sandy Bridge based systems.

All OS's do that, even Windows 7 as telemetry, and lots of it with the latest updates, as does lots of Linux distros, with Ubuntu saying that they will do almost the same as MS.

If you dont want forced updates, disable them, and then complain how you are part of a botnet

 :palm:
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #50 on: February 21, 2018, 02:08:43 pm »
Basically, there is way too much interdependence of components in Linux distros.

It's called software re-use.

I am sorry but I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with this assessment of APT

I'm completely with Gnif on this one - if modern packaging systems and management tools (rpm, deb, apt, yum/dnf etc) are giving you grief you might just be doing something wrong, the whole point of these tools is to manage dependencies and, used properly they do a good job.

If you go off piste and compile source yourself or pick up binary stuff which is not packaged, or not packaged correctly, then you may well have issues as described but that isn't really the fault of either the distributions or their package management.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #51 on: February 21, 2018, 02:56:39 pm »
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!
 

Offline senso

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2018, 03:21:08 pm »
And you can always buy another Windows key/COA/licence if you really need Windows, if not, slap some unix in there.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #53 on: February 21, 2018, 03:35:36 pm »
http://thefreethoughtproject.com/innovative-man-facing-prison-recycling-old-computers-instead-throwing-away/
Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!
Something not quite right about that story - surely most windows licences are OEM ones acquired with the PC and which stay with the hardware. As long as there's a CoA there shouldn't be a problem. Happy to be corrected on that - not a M$ license expert.

IF a PC had retail then that could be retained by the previous owner and transferred to another PC, or if they are corporate machines then, there might be an issue but if that was the case the article didn't explain it very well.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #54 on: February 21, 2018, 04:32:41 pm »
Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #55 on: February 21, 2018, 04:56:39 pm »
Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
I'm never quite sure with the free thought project stuff.
 

Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #56 on: February 21, 2018, 06:46:12 pm »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #57 on: February 22, 2018, 01:05:46 am »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.

It's only bizarre if you naively assume courts are about justice, rather than protecting the status quo and money-interests. And that Microsoft _isn't_ as evil as I suggest.

"There's no justice in the court system." - Quote from a barrister, told to me by a friend. His example involved his wife being massively, life-ruiningly injured on a NSW ski lift. Totally due to negligence of the ski lift operator. Who fought damages payment right up to the high court, and won. My friend's career, life, home, wife's health, all trashed. Just because a company had more money for court battles than he did.

I have my own example tale, not quite as bad but still extreme. Too long and off-topic to relate here.

Have you guys looked at that site? Even the URL is a dead give-away that it's a trash source.
When you have doubts about a story, the first thing you should do is look for alternative sources and substantiations. As Grumpy did, and thanks for that link, grumpy.
One thing you should NEVER do, is reject an entire story just because you don't like some other things on that site.
What you're doing is called ad hominem, and is as logically invalid as 'appeal to authority'.

Quote
But for people who buy a second-hand computer, if the product key to the copy of Windows does not belong to them (registered with Microsoft) the computer is worthless and must be thrown away.
That is simply false. A computer is not worthless, just because it doesn't have Windows installed on it. Other operating systems are available!

It's false for some small subset of people. But true for the majority. Most people do not have the confidence and knowledge to be able to install a different OS. It's easy for technically capable people to forget this. Projection...

Or, ha ha, some like me may have 'OS installation aversion anxiety', due to multiple instances in the past of wasting a great deal of time attempting OS adventures that ultimately failed. Typically for obscure reasons that turned into endless f*ck-arounds with inadequate information, obscure problems that couldn't be solved, drivers that couldn't be found or didn't work, etc.

I have a PC sitting on the side bench beside me here, that is stalled in an OS-adventure for precisely that reason. Holding up a whole string of projects. Must find the courage... sigh.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 01:26:39 am by TerraHertz »
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #58 on: February 22, 2018, 01:33:31 am »
Rejecting stories because the source isn't reliable is the only sensible thing to do. There are so many trash stories out there that you cannot expect people to go on the hunt every time some claim is made. It has nothing to do with an ad hominem or any other fallacy. Information is only as valuable as the source it comes from. It it's a trash source, you cannot depend on the information it dispenses. Added to that is the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove. Both are principles science and the legal system heavily are depending on in major ways.

It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.
 

Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #59 on: February 22, 2018, 01:44:09 am »
It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.


From what I read, it was distributing copies of the recovery disks that was a problem, even though the disk was freely downloadable.

Now, even though something is freely downloadable, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with the downloaded content.  If you could, GPL would have no teeth.  I'm afraid if a download comes with conditions, you'd better abide by them.

Now it might be a marketing faux pas for Microsoft to have gone after this guy, but I guess not as this is the first I've heard of it.

 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #60 on: February 22, 2018, 02:46:58 am »
Big boy Intel ME is present from Sandy Bridge and up, play with FITC and an ME dump if you dont believe, it can be disabled by corrupting it at least in Sandy Bridge based systems.
Sandy bridge - I know. I'm one of the first few who posted here about the IME, remember? 'Disabled' - that's a whole can of worms I haven't looked into. Problem is how can one ever be sure it's totally gone? Also what other back doors are in the silicon? It's a waste of time fighting a demonstrably hostile opponent who has vastly more resources than you. Better to just walk away. My minimal effort approach is just to stick with older CPUs. (A side benefit is that they are free.)

One thing I'm still looking for, is an Intel CPUs timeline, that includes what is known about the ME and other backdoors, and when each was introduced. Even the Pentium 1 had SMM code execution invisible to the OS and user-code, and I don't trust that either.

Ultimately, the only solution is to dump the entire Intel-MS computing ecosystem, and start with something fresh. Something with active countermeasures to prevent this kind of creeping OEM spyware plague, and a political-legal foundation with teeth to ensure this shitty situation doesn't happen again.

Quote
All OS's do that, even Windows 7 as telemetry, and lots of it with the latest updates, as does lots of Linux distros, with Ubuntu saying that they will do almost the same as MS.
Which is one of a list of reasons I don't switch all my machines to Linux. It may come to that, but there are downsides, and Linux doesn't solve the privacy problem. Just makes it maybe slightly better in some respects. That's not good enough.

Quote
If you dont want forced updates, disable them, and then complain how you are part of a botnet
Ha ha, you assume that with my views on MS (and other software majors) I'd allow auto-updates of _anything_.
You also assume that MS updates will close all known 'holes'. But we know for a fact from the NSA toolkit leak and other things, that this is false and MS and Intel are actually responsible for creating and maintaining many holes. And now lots of those holes are in the wild due to the NSA toolkit leaks. Which was inevitable, and merely a practical demonstration that deliberately creating holes is a deeply retarded thing to do. But that's fascists for you.

Aside re updates: The whole 'Windows Genuine Advantage' (aka we're going to try and force you to take all the updates, or none) is such a pain in the arse. But that was just an incremental step towards the nastiness of Win10.

Edit to add:

Rejecting stories because the source isn't reliable is the only sensible thing to do. There are so many trash stories out there that you cannot expect people to go on the hunt every time some claim is made. It has nothing to do with an ad hominem or any other fallacy. Information is only as valuable as the source it comes from. It it's a trash source, you cannot depend on the information it dispenses. Added to that is the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove. Both are principles science and the legal system heavily are depending on in major ways.

You're wrong in both the general sense, and the specific. Firstly, we've now established the recycling PCs court case story is real. Yet you still seem to be justifying to yourself the act of rejecting it due to initial source.

So why are you wrong in general?

You're applying the rules of scientific method and legal exactitude, to the real world. But they do not apply, because in the real world there are people operating by the principles of Game Theory (lie and cheat, obfuscate your motives, maximize your advantage any conceivable way), the Hegelian Dialectic (manufacture fake crisis, to which you propose a solution - that is what you wanted in the first place), the principles of Propaganda and cognitive dissonance (lead people to believe absurdities, break their connection with logic and truth, and you can get them to do anything you want.) And so on.

The Scientific Method works, because Physics isn't actively trying to deceive and trick you, and is consistent. (And still there's currently a huge crisis of irreproducible published results, ie fake science.)

In the real world otoh, there is NO SUCH THING as an absolutely reliable information source. Not the mainstream media, figures of authority, or anything online.  Some are just worse than others. To further complicate things, we're seeing a cultural split into multiple mutually incompatible belief-sets. As recently complained about by Alphabet/Google's Eric Schmidt, bitching that Google's AI is hard to program to arbitrate what is Truth and what isn't, because of this social split. So how to AI-censor the views different to his, and why does he have to put up with this trouble? Poor Mr Schmidt. (And I'm leaving out his further issues with a certain Presidential EO.)

"the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove" 
Also false in the social sphere. Especially when dealing with conspiracy (which this whole issue of Microsoft's ultimate objectives does involve, by definition.) The function of noticing some possible connection, stating it publicly, so others can add anything relevant they have found, thus evolving public understanding of what's going on... that's a very valuable thing. It's how ALL socio-political revolutions arise, and it's what's happening again now in a much faster and detailed way, thanks to the Net.

It's why the Elites are freaking out about the Internet - for the first time in human history the control mesh involving official news channels (which includes the commercial MSM, when all are owned by a very small pro-State clique) and official pronouncements, is starting to lose effectiveness.

"There are so many trash stories out there"
Yes indeed. In fact a lot of that is deliberate, much of it due to the existing power structures attempting to poison the challenger to their authority - the Net.
Which doesn't alter the fact that the only way to deal with _any_ story, is to judge it on it's own merits, whether it contradicts  other information you've established as probably true, whether it makes sense, etc. The nature of the source should only be another bit of background information, giving you some idea of the information's credibility. But never in itself excluding a story from consideration.
Also bear in mind that almost all web sites have economic needs, and so likely have to mix stories to suit their advertising and clicks needs. But they also often serve as news comcentration nodes, since they get stuff sent to them by their audience. Hence, you can get a mix of trash, lies and worthwhile news. Just like the MSM only with different slants, unlike the MSM's almost entirely homogenous bias, by nature of their very homogenous ownership.

The MS-vs-recycler story exactly fit what I knew about MS philosophy and practice, so I didn't bother finding independent backing. I've been caught out making that kind of easy acceptance (selection bias) a (very) few times in the past. But this time not.

Quote
It also seems the problem wasn't selling these computers with newly installed copies of Windows. The problems seems to have been the distribution of copies of the discs Windows came on. Whether that's actually a problem is up for debate, but that's not quite the same as suing someone for reselling a computer with a fresh copy of Windows.

No, the problem is that MS wants to stamp out the reuse of old PCs. Their legal argument to the court is bullshit and so are their EULAs for the original restore CDs.  Just a means to an end. Which is killing any alternatives to people being forced to move to Win10. For reasons I've stated. Even statistically tiny numbers of people. MS wants it all, no escape permitted.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2018, 03:50:53 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline grumpydoc

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #61 on: February 22, 2018, 08:10:45 am »
Also reported in the Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/02/21/e_waste_lundgren_windows_dell/

Bizarre ruling from the courts.

It's only bizarre if you naively assume courts are about justice, rather than protecting the status quo and money-interests. And that Microsoft _isn't_ as evil as I suggest.

Some of the commenters on El Reg are suggesting the problem was not so much with recycling PCs, nor even with the validity of the licences (though there was some discussion as to whether he needed specific "recycled PC" OS licences), nor with the contents of the recovery disks but the fact that he made the recovery disks an exact but "fake" copy of the originals complete with Dell and Microsoft logos.

So he seems to have been convicted of producing counterfeit recovery disks - that at least makes more sense in terms of why the court found him guilty.

Also, as was observed by one commentator 28,800 disks is a lot for a one man recycling outfit. To go through those in a year you'd have to process 120 PCs a day 5 days a week which is a hell of a task.
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2018, 10:24:03 am »
It's false for some small subset of people. But true for the majority. Most people do not have the confidence and knowledge to be able to install a different OS. It's easy for technically capable people to forget this. Projection...

Or, ha ha, some like me may have 'OS installation aversion anxiety', due to multiple instances in the past of wasting a great deal of time attempting OS adventures that ultimately failed. Typically for obscure reasons that turned into endless f*ck-arounds with inadequate information, obscure problems that couldn't be solved, drivers that couldn't be found or didn't work, etc.

I have a PC sitting on the side bench beside me here, that is stalled in an OS-adventure for precisely that reason. Holding up a whole string of projects. Must find the courage... sigh.
But we're not talking about the average user here.  The person in question is more than capable of installing an alternative operating system to Windows.
 

Offline acts238willy

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #63 on: February 22, 2018, 11:16:50 am »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #64 on: February 22, 2018, 10:08:32 pm »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......


You're not missing out on anything to lose sleep over,

that 'touch' stuff can be annoying and a pita to use on many simple functions

Useful for phones up to a point, but a chore to use with anything else where keyboard and mouse are still king  :clap: :clap:

 

Offline Masa

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2018, 09:26:36 am »
Well it is understandable that the UI in Windows 10 is still a work in progress. Actually from MS point of view, it is understandable, that when the mobile computing began to get very popular and eat the sales of the PC market, Microsoft had to do something, as their sales were going down. The result was the Windows 8, that was quite horrible from UI point of view for a desktop user. Luckily they listened user feedback and returned the desktop and startmenu to the old style on Windows 10. But they also changed Windows 10 to a rolling release system . . .

I think the desktop user interface in Windows 10 currently is quite good for a traditional desktop user. There is many parts improved since win 7 not only for touch, but also for mouse and keyboard, like the Windows explorer. They have also added some new desktop features, like multiple desktops, improved the command promt, better calculator etc.

Also there is quite interesting new features, like the Linux subsystem that you can install. It allows you to run linux software natively on windows, ( they have added some kind of linux system call interface into the NT kernel ).  ;)
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 09:28:54 am by Masa »
 

Offline acts238willy

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2018, 03:38:57 pm »
In a few years, it's crunch time for all windoz 7 users, right?

Linux learning time, I guess...
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2018, 05:10:29 pm »
Well it is understandable that the UI in Windows 10 is still a work in progress. Actually from MS point of view, it is understandable, that when the mobile computing began to get very popular and eat the sales of the PC market, Microsoft had to do something, as their sales were going down. The result was the Windows 8, that was quite horrible from UI point of view for a desktop user. Luckily they listened user feedback and returned the desktop and startmenu to the old style on Windows 10. But they also changed Windows 10 to a rolling release system . . .

I think the desktop user interface in Windows 10 currently is quite good for a traditional desktop user. There is many parts improved since win 7 not only for touch, but also for mouse and keyboard, like the Windows explorer. They have also added some new desktop features, like multiple desktops, improved the command promt, better calculator etc.

Also there is quite interesting new features, like the Linux subsystem that you can install. It allows you to run linux software natively on windows, ( they have added some kind of linux system call interface into the NT kernel ).  ;)
Lots of it is personal preference. I like the new command prompt, am indifferent about multiple desktops and hate the new calculator, with its giant toy interface, so much so, that I've downloaded and installed the Windows 7 patched version. I also dislike the flat look of the widgets, which reminds me of old Windows versions and DOS software and that the window title and menu bars are both white, although there's probably a way to fix that.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2018, 09:47:30 pm »
With a bit of internet surfing with appropriate search terms and a scrape or two on Youtube , you can beef up Win 7 and 8x with third party apps and browsers etc,
using freeware and cheap shareware with author support, that have been around for ages

and have a top notch system that will be miles in front of what Win 10, 12, and 12.1 can ever hope to be

You can even use third party apps to strip off or suppress most of the Win 10 headaches and have it behaving,
rather than TELLING you 'where you are going to go today'   ::)


FWIW taking Linux out for a test drive won't break the bank, or injure you   :phew:

But you may suffer the former if you blunder into expensive Mac mountain terrain,
infested with spinning beach balls of death   :scared:
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #69 on: February 25, 2018, 10:22:08 pm »
Sandy bridge - I know. I'm one of the first few who posted here about the IME, remember? 'Disabled' - that's a whole can of worms I haven't looked into. Problem is how can one ever be sure it's totally gone? Also what other back doors are in the silicon? It's a waste of time fighting a demonstrably hostile opponent who has vastly more resources than you. Better to just walk away. My minimal effort approach is just to stick with older CPUs. (A side benefit is that they are free.)

One thing I'm still looking for, is an Intel CPUs timeline, that includes what is known about the ME and other backdoors, and when each was introduced. Even the Pentium 1 had SMM code execution invisible to the OS and user-code, and I don't trust that either.

Ultimately, the only solution is to dump the entire Intel-MS computing ecosystem, and start with something fresh. Something with active countermeasures to prevent this kind of creeping OEM spyware plague, and a political-legal foundation with teeth to ensure this shitty situation doesn't happen again.

Which is one of a list of reasons I don't switch all my machines to Linux. It may come to that, but there are downsides, and Linux doesn't solve the privacy problem. Just makes it maybe slightly better in some respects. That's not good enough.

Ha ha, you assume that with my views on MS (and other software majors) I'd allow auto-updates of _anything_.
You also assume that MS updates will close all known 'holes'. But we know for a fact from the NSA toolkit leak and other things, that this is false and MS and Intel are actually responsible for creating and maintaining many holes. And now lots of those holes are in the wild due to the NSA toolkit leaks. Which was inevitable, and merely a practical demonstration that deliberately creating holes is a deeply retarded thing to do. But that's fascists for you.

Aside re updates: The whole 'Windows Genuine Advantage' (aka we're going to try and force you to take all the updates, or none) is such a pain in the arse. But that was just an incremental step towards the nastiness of Win10.

Edit to add:

You're wrong in both the general sense, and the specific. Firstly, we've now established the recycling PCs court case story is real. Yet you still seem to be justifying to yourself the act of rejecting it due to initial source.

So why are you wrong in general?

You're applying the rules of scientific method and legal exactitude, to the real world. But they do not apply, because in the real world there are people operating by the principles of Game Theory (lie and cheat, obfuscate your motives, maximize your advantage any conceivable way), the Hegelian Dialectic (manufacture fake crisis, to which you propose a solution - that is what you wanted in the first place), the principles of Propaganda and cognitive dissonance (lead people to believe absurdities, break their connection with logic and truth, and you can get them to do anything you want.) And so on.

The Scientific Method works, because Physics isn't actively trying to deceive and trick you, and is consistent. (And still there's currently a huge crisis of irreproducible published results, ie fake science.)

In the real world otoh, there is NO SUCH THING as an absolutely reliable information source. Not the mainstream media, figures of authority, or anything online.  Some are just worse than others. To further complicate things, we're seeing a cultural split into multiple mutually incompatible belief-sets. As recently complained about by Alphabet/Google's Eric Schmidt, bitching that Google's AI is hard to program to arbitrate what is Truth and what isn't, because of this social split. So how to AI-censor the views different to his, and why does he have to put up with this trouble? Poor Mr Schmidt. (And I'm leaving out his further issues with a certain Presidential EO.)

"the expectation that the one to claim is also the one to prove" 
Also false in the social sphere. Especially when dealing with conspiracy (which this whole issue of Microsoft's ultimate objectives does involve, by definition.) The function of noticing some possible connection, stating it publicly, so others can add anything relevant they have found, thus evolving public understanding of what's going on... that's a very valuable thing. It's how ALL socio-political revolutions arise, and it's what's happening again now in a much faster and detailed way, thanks to the Net.

It's why the Elites are freaking out about the Internet - for the first time in human history the control mesh involving official news channels (which includes the commercial MSM, when all are owned by a very small pro-State clique) and official pronouncements, is starting to lose effectiveness.

"There are so many trash stories out there"
Yes indeed. In fact a lot of that is deliberate, much of it due to the existing power structures attempting to poison the challenger to their authority - the Net.
Which doesn't alter the fact that the only way to deal with _any_ story, is to judge it on it's own merits, whether it contradicts  other information you've established as probably true, whether it makes sense, etc. The nature of the source should only be another bit of background information, giving you some idea of the information's credibility. But never in itself excluding a story from consideration.
Also bear in mind that almost all web sites have economic needs, and so likely have to mix stories to suit their advertising and clicks needs. But they also often serve as news comcentration nodes, since they get stuff sent to them by their audience. Hence, you can get a mix of trash, lies and worthwhile news. Just like the MSM only with different slants, unlike the MSM's almost entirely homogenous bias, by nature of their very homogenous ownership.

The MS-vs-recycler story exactly fit what I knew about MS philosophy and practice, so I didn't bother finding independent backing. I've been caught out making that kind of easy acceptance (selection bias) a (very) few times in the past. But this time not.


No, the problem is that MS wants to stamp out the reuse of old PCs. Their legal argument to the court is bullshit and so are their EULAs for the original restore CDs.  Just a means to an end. Which is killing any alternatives to people being forced to move to Win10. For reasons I've stated. Even statistically tiny numbers of people. MS wants it all, no escape permitted.
For fuck's sake, just admit you should have picked a more decent source.  :palm:
 

Online james_s

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #70 on: February 25, 2018, 11:09:24 pm »
You're not missing out on anything to lose sleep over,

that 'touch' stuff can be annoying and a pita to use on many simple functions

Useful for phones up to a point, but a chore to use with anything else where keyboard and mouse are still king  :clap: :clap:

I tolerate touch on my phone because I can't carry a keyboard and mouse around in my pocket very easily but otherwise I really hate touchscreens. I'd say I have better than average dexterity but my fingertips are still larger than the virtual keys in most cases. I constantly find myself having to repeatedly stab at touch buttons before they decide to register my touch. I have the same problem with those capacitive touch buttons that are popular on consumer gear, they just don't detect my touch very well. Give me physical controls any day.
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #71 on: February 25, 2018, 11:14:18 pm »

I tolerate touch on my phone because I can't carry a keyboard and mouse around in my pocket very easily but otherwise I really hate touchscreens. I'd say I have better than average dexterity but my fingertips are still larger than the virtual keys in most cases. I constantly find myself having to repeatedly stab at touch buttons before they decide to register my touch. I have the same problem with those capacitive touch buttons that are popular on consumer gear, they just don't detect my touch very well. Give me physical controls any day.
Tactile feedback seems very underrated.
 
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Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2018, 11:42:32 pm »
I just bought a 100$ Cherry MX Green keyboard. I love my tactile feedback.
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Offline tooki

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #73 on: February 26, 2018, 12:04:59 am »
Because the new CEO is not Steve Balmer, and the fact that he was bought at a time of a failing  Windows. Because they have employed brilliant non-Microsoft people. Because they now absolutely love Docker, Kubernetes and lots of other OS stuff. Because they are massively running Linux. The guys designing the future of Windows know Linux backwards. (Don't be surprised if the new O/S can run Linux programs perfectly.) Because they are prepared to almost give Windows 10 away over 6 years to create the opportunity to make a new O/S. Because with the release of Windows 10, one of the chief Microsoft guys said it was that last Windows version. Because they said on initial release that Windows 10 ends in 2020 and long term support ends in 2025 or earlier for all current Windows versions and in the last 4 years, that has never changed.

Microsoft is not a stupid company - they have done a brilliant job keeping Windows going for 25+ years. Their problem has been that to fix Windows, they need to take a big leap and that could never happen under any previous CEO. Steve Gates was too tied to the old Windows and Balmer was only a business man - he couldn't drive technical revolution. Windows 8 is his legacy.

I get the impression that some people think that the results of 6 years work by a massive company and with the smartest people in the industry will be another pathetic Windows 8 attempt. I don't know why.
Historically, Microsoft has been about backwards compatibility in a major way. Many of the issues we see today are a result of choices made in the past and kept for the sake of backwards compatibility. Microsoft understand like no other that when you start cutting the compatibility, people have no reason not to go somewhere else. If you have to start anew, why not start somewhere else?

This means that if they come up with something else, it needs to be massively compatible with the past. That's what they have done so succesfully all these years and what they will undoubtedly continue to do so. This means being stuck with the same choices once more.
Nail on head.

This is precisely why web apps became a HUGE opportunity for Apple to make headway in the enterprise: if a company needs to reengineer an internal app anyway (because the platform it’s on is obsolete), they’ll mostly rewrite it as a web app to make it platform agnostic. (See IBM’s massive Mac rollout for a great example of this. As of 2 years ago, they were at 130,000 Macs rolled out, and continuing at a rate of 1900 per week. This would have been categorically impossible if their internal apps were still for Windows or OS/2.) Similarly, for many users a Chromebook is enough to run the web apps.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #74 on: February 26, 2018, 12:08:14 am »
My problem is that I'm shaky in my old age
and can't do 'touch' stuff without screwing up......
FYI, iOS has some accessibility settings to help with shaky hands: https://www.abilitynet.org.uk/news-blogs/how-changing-settings-your-ipad-and-iphone-can-help-people-tremors-and-other-dexterity

I assume android either has such things, too, or will at some point.
 

Online james_s

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #75 on: February 26, 2018, 12:27:53 am »
I just bought a 100$ Cherry MX Green keyboard. I love my tactile feedback.

I have an IBM clicky keyboard on my core i7 desktop. I've used that same keyboard since I built a fancy new 386 running DOS5 and Win 3.1, and it was old already when I got it. Every several years I pop off all the keycaps and run them though the ultrasonic cleaner.

I've had several newer keyboards wear out in other machines in that time, the printing wore completely off all the commonly used keys. The IBM keycaps had the printing molded in.
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #76 on: February 26, 2018, 12:35:56 am »
Here's the keyboard: https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2739

The keys are double shot cast, so the letters won't ever just rub off. The MX green is the 80 cN (80 gram-force approx.) heavy version of the clicky MX blue. I thought about getting a buckling spring keyboard, and maybe some day I might, but I wanted MX greens right now.

I haven't gotten it yet, I am suffering with a cheap Chinese rubber dome keyboard atm.
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Offline TerraHertz

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #77 on: February 26, 2018, 04:46:33 am »
That reminds me, I must get around to finding a better clicky 10keyless keyboard. The one I'm using (Poseidon ZX) has very poor key legend permanency. The A & S symbols are just blobs now. Also the key switches are intermittent on a few keys.
Sure wish there was an IBM clicky keyboard in the short format. I had a full size one, but it died. Also was too wide for ergonomic comfort.

On a different topic, are there any psychologists here? Now and then, on any forum, one sees a poster with an unusual excess of all-caps, single quote qualifiers, brackets, and long series of exclamation marks and ellipses. It always seems to be associated with a certain type of thinking, but it's hard to describe. OP provides some fine examples in this thread, and also in the locked https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/knights-of-the-round-table-today-!!!!!/
People who write like that don't seem to be aware of it. Is there a name for this syndrome? I know one person with histrionic personality disorder, but they don't write like that.
I don't want to derail the thread or embarrass OP, so please PM me if you have a relevant search term or link. I'm just curious.
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Offline amspire

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #78 on: February 26, 2018, 04:56:48 am »
Sure wish there was an IBM clicky keyboard in the short format. I had a full size one, but it died. Also was too wide for ergonomic comfort.
Have you checked out the Unicomp keyboards? They are the ones who bought the IBM/Lexmark technology.

https://www.pckeyboard.com

They are not all as big as the IBM M Type.

They are always going to be bigger and heavier then any modern compact keyboard.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2018, 05:04:00 am by amspire »
 

Offline Ampera

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #79 on: February 26, 2018, 07:05:26 am »
That reminds me, I must get around to finding a better clicky 10keyless keyboard. The one I'm using (Poseidon ZX) has very poor key legend permanency. The A & S symbols are just blobs now. Also the key switches are intermittent on a few keys.
Sure wish there was an IBM clicky keyboard in the short format. I had a full size one, but it died. Also was too wide for ergonomic comfort.

On a different topic, are there any psychologists here? Now and then, on any forum, one sees a poster with an unusual excess of all-caps, single quote qualifiers, brackets, and long series of exclamation marks and ellipses. It always seems to be associated with a certain type of thinking, but it's hard to describe. OP provides some fine examples in this thread, and also in the locked https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/knights-of-the-round-table-today-!!!!!/
People who write like that don't seem to be aware of it. Is there a name for this syndrome? I know one person with histrionic personality disorder, but they don't write like that.
I don't want to derail the thread or embarrass OP, so please PM me if you have a relevant search term or link. I'm just curious.

There many 10-keyless Cherry MX boards. I recommend blues, as my decision to go for greens is widely considered to be an insane one, I just like heavy keys.

As for the latter, I'm not a professional, or even trained, but I'd be damned if I haven't pondered the intricacies of life, so I guess that doesn't make me qualified, but I don't give a shatner.
This seems to be from people who get too caught up in what they are typing, almost like the computer version of being in love with your own voice. Sometimes people are just illiterate
dumbarses, sometimes people may also just be socially challenged through no fault of their own as well.

To think the worst of someone is to be smart, and to think the best of someone is to be polite. I didn't read much of that post, but I got the general idea from a quick skim, and I honestly punish myself enough on Twitter to be bringing that sort of existential depression into my life here. It's possible he's just trying to be funny.

To me, I think I would bank on him being a bit caught up in his own words, but I think the sort of attitude you're talking about could just be a common trait of those with social disorders.
C/C++/Java Programmer, Legacy hardware enthusiast, madman.
If it's broken, I probably did it.
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Offline John Coloccia

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #80 on: February 27, 2018, 03:26:50 am »
That reminds me, I must get around to finding a better clicky 10keyless keyboard. The one I'm using (Poseidon ZX) has very poor key legend permanency. The A & S symbols are just blobs now. Also the key switches are intermittent on a few keys.
Sure wish there was an IBM clicky keyboard in the short format. I had a full size one, but it died. Also was too wide for ergonomic comfort.

On a different topic, are there any psychologists here? Now and then, on any forum, one sees a poster with an unusual excess of all-caps, single quote qualifiers, brackets, and long series of exclamation marks and ellipses. It always seems to be associated with a certain type of thinking, but it's hard to describe. OP provides some fine examples in this thread, and also in the locked https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/knights-of-the-round-table-today-!!!!!/
People who write like that don't seem to be aware of it. Is there a name for this syndrome? I know one person with histrionic personality disorder, but they don't write like that.
I don't want to derail the thread or embarrass OP, so please PM me if you have a relevant search term or link. I'm just curious.

I have a Unicomp like was suggested. It's NOTHING like the old IBM model M. It's lightweight and flimsy. Keys are mushy, not crisp. I've seen one that's a couple of years old and some keys just don't work anymore, and the ones that do feel like crap. They're inexpensive, but I wish they had the option of paying a bit more and getting better quality. I don't regret purchasing it, but I wouldn't buy another, to be very honest.

For work, I now use a Topre RealForce tenkeyless. I got mine at 55g. I like heavier keys. My all time favorite keyboard was my old OmniKey 102. I finally wore it out, which actually isn't too difficult to do with the old Alps switches. Matias makes a copy of the "simplified" Alps, but I tried one of their keyboards and it was a complete turd. Keys that don't register, other keys that register multiple keystrokes. Read the reviews and you'll see it's a common issue. If they ever fix their garbage switch I'll be first in line to buy.

Until then I think we're stuck with Cherries, unless you find a vintage Alps in great shape. If you want an inexpensive TKL, Ducky makes a very nice keyboard. It's what I use at home. For less then $100, you get a basic keyboard, built heavy and sturdy, with double shot PBT keycaps. I've recommended them several times and everyone has been very happy.
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #81 on: February 27, 2018, 03:58:02 am »
My latest hate for Windows 10 is after the most recent update I'm having trouble installing applications. It's Windows Defender I am sure.

Notably I found LTspice XVII taking forever to start, so I uninstalled it and then found it impossible to re-install. I went through the registry deleting all LTspice keys, and did the regsvr32 /u on it's DLL's. I cleared the .ini file it places in /user/AppData/...

I changed the install drive to C:\ etc. I installed it as Administrator. I launched it as Administrator, nothing would work.

I then switched off all Windows 10 virus bollocks and re-installed it. Finally it runs!!! But it still takes over 1.5 minutes to start, and I have used Sysinternals Procmon.exe to see what's going on - literally nothing. It just sits there no disk, net, CPU, anything activity for up to 2 minutes before it actually starts.

Ok. more recently I decide to install Fusion 360 to see what it's all about.

Signed up, application downloads and installs but as soon as it gets to 99% it bombs out with an error. There is nothing about this error (-2147024894, 'The system cannot find the file specified.', (None, None, None, 0, None)) online. I re-install again as Administrator, same again. I try all kinds and send a log to Autodesk. I then go and try my Windows Defender settings, disable "Controlled folder access" and it only fucking installs just fine!

Fusion now works. LTspice works but I have to wait 2 minutes for it to start, and it also takes 2 minutes to unload after I close it. All this bollocks since mandatory Windows 10 updates.
 

Offline metrologist

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #82 on: February 27, 2018, 04:08:33 am »
So now photoshop and illustrator are broken, and I'm getting slide-out notifications to log into the Ms store; access services with you MS account; one account many services xbox blah blah... I want none of that. All my notification settings are already in the off position. More and more, MS sole reason to exist is to merely exist. I send them feedback about the problems.
 

Offline Bassman59

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #83 on: February 27, 2018, 04:23:34 am »
Sure wish there was an IBM clicky keyboard in the short format. I had a full size one, but it died. Also was too wide for ergonomic comfort.
Have you checked out the Unicomp keyboards? They are the ones who bought the IBM/Lexmark technology.

https://www.pckeyboard.com

I have one. I love it. My co-workers hate it. The click-click-click drives them nuts.

Of course the daily "DID YOU SEE THE GAME!!!" interruptions are far, far worse. Although they've been somewhat quieted, now that the football coach was shitcanned for basically running his program like a frat house, and the basketball coach was just caught on tape offering to give a $100,000 bribe to a recruit.
 
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Offline orin

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #84 on: February 27, 2018, 05:58:17 am »
My latest hate for Windows 10 is after the most recent update I'm having trouble installing applications. It's Windows Defender I am sure.

Notably I found LTspice XVII taking forever to start, so I uninstalled it and then found it impossible to re-install. I went through the registry deleting all LTspice keys, and did the regsvr32 /u on it's DLL's. I cleared the .ini file it places in /user/AppData/...

I changed the install drive to C:\ etc. I installed it as Administrator. I launched it as Administrator, nothing would work.

I then switched off all Windows 10 virus bollocks and re-installed it. Finally it runs!!! But it still takes over 1.5 minutes to start, and I have used Sysinternals Procmon.exe to see what's going on - literally nothing. It just sits there no disk, net, CPU, anything activity for up to 2 minutes before it actually starts.

Ok. more recently I decide to install Fusion 360 to see what it's all about.

Signed up, application downloads and installs but as soon as it gets to 99% it bombs out with an error. There is nothing about this error (-2147024894, 'The system cannot find the file specified.', (None, None, None, 0, None)) online. I re-install again as Administrator, same again. I try all kinds and send a log to Autodesk. I then go and try my Windows Defender settings, disable "Controlled folder access" and it only fucking installs just fine!

Fusion now works. LTspice works but I have to wait 2 minutes for it to start, and it also takes 2 minutes to unload after I close it. All this bollocks since mandatory Windows 10 updates.


Somewhat unlikely that' it's Defender.  I have had trouble with Kaspersky leaving an application installing updates forever on OSX however.

Whenever I've had troubles with apps taking a long time to start, it's been something in the PATH environment variable that has a folder that no longer exists.  So the first thing I'd check is that all folders on the path exist (and aren't on a network drive).

But in this case, perhaps it's a network problem.  I know LTspice calls home to check for updates as it keeps telling me that there is an update available.  It could be a DNS lookup that's taking forever, or it's calling home on a port that is now being blocked by the firewall and you are seeing TCP/IP connect timeouts - which tend to be rather long (I always do 'connect's asynchronously with a short timeout for this reason).

You should be able to see blocked packets in event viewer.  Download and run 'Wireshark' to monitor DNS requests.

Edit re -2147024894: Try searching for 0x80070002 instead (the 32bit hex equivalent).  The 0002 part is indeed the WIN32 ERROR_FILE_NOT_FOUND error code.  The 8007 just means it's been converted to an HRESULT (and as such doesn't really mean much, only that some function that returns an HRESULT got a WIN32 error and had to convert it).
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 06:13:12 am by orin »
 

Offline peteb2

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Re: So what's going on with Windows-10, and why do we ('I') hate it ????
« Reply #85 on: February 27, 2018, 02:46:58 pm »
Microsoft's various renditions of OS has pretty much been the norm for me and the job i do where 99.9% of the time the clients or servers boot up into the specific complex application package leaving Windows off to the side and essentially ignored. Many of the systems continue to stipulate Win 7, (never Win 10) only but slowly i am seeing new products (software) arriving that have been written around all kinds of advantages in having a specified Linux OS over the version that runs under Windows. It becomes a no-brainer to shift to a Linux OS (which says i really need to do some self learning)...

Interestingly i experienced a shocker of gotcha with a Windows 10 'wrinkle'....

I have a Surface Pro 3 not doing much so thought i could set it up in my home Lab as my main LAB PC. With the newer Pro 4 dock 4K res can be extracted for a second screen. Great i thought for looking at schematics, making engineering CAD or even KiCAD PCB design etc. I found the unit for a great price and had it delivered to my work and had brought along my SP3 so in a spare moment and the boss not watching i soon had things working. 4K on a 2nd big screen i borrowed for the moment certainly looked the business. Then i attached Ethernet lead for the LAN and accessed the Internet... everything worked and i took the whole lot home that evening (minus a monitor which i still need to buy).

Things turned bad at home however. Under Win 10 for whatever reason i could not create another Workgroup and join my Home Network of my home LAN. Rebooting the SP3 it ignored anything i set up and kept trying for the one that had Auto installed and named from work earlier in the day. It actually would work for ten or so minutes in that the machine was able to reach the Internet but then up popped the yellow triangle on the lower left Network Icon....

 |O I tried everything and did a few searches but in the end the only way was to run up Regedit and drill down into Registry for the Network Profiles and delete the one auto-made when on the LAN at my work....  A re-plugging of the RJ45 and up popped my Home LAN and everything was perfect...

It's at this point i start to ask what is going on with what is the very backbone of a computer when crazy stuff like this TIME VAMPIRE setup issue comes along? Windows anything before 10 never gave me this kind of stupid hassle. It might be a one off, i do not know but it's saying to me that as Microsoft produce increasingly bloated up OS's like the monster Win 10 is that in our Industry Area of hands-on technical, engineering, electronics it's now not the sort of thing we need to be using on our PCs....
« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 02:50:31 pm by peteb2 »
 


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