Author Topic: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge  (Read 21371 times)

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Offline smjcuk

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2015, 09:15:04 am »
Been using it for a few days in a VM now. It's really quite nice. Can't say I've had any problems with it. The "modern apps" are a bit flakey but they're being fixed very quickly.

 

Offline Delta

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2015, 11:35:56 pm »
This is a genuine question - and admittedly I run older computers with Ubuntu and XP - but what can Windows 10 do that older versions cannot?
 

Offline bills

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2015, 11:51:51 pm »
Here is the ISO for those that have not found it yet.
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/preview-iso
Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
 

Offline poorchava

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2015, 07:09:39 am »
I just hope that they introduce some form of "fuck off, I know what I'm doing" mode. In Win7 most security/ "are you REALLY sure" / "warning Will Robinson, danger!" dialog boxes can be disabled, and even if they can't there is usually an 'I know what I'm doing" option. Not try to install an unsigned driver in Win 8.1.......... I strongly suspect that it is worse in Win10.

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Offline george graves

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2015, 09:00:48 am »
This is a genuine question - and admittedly I run older computers with Ubuntu and XP - but what can Windows 10 do that older versions cannot?

I was in your camp fro a long time.  A key piece of editing software I was using was XP pro *only* for the longest time.  It's not a life changer, after all once you're in an app, that where you do your work - but I now prefer the win 7 explorer - and stuff.  It just makes more sense. What ever OS you run, add an SSD - the prices are so low now it makes no sense not to. 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #80 on: June 11, 2015, 03:02:38 pm »
Stability is better with Windows 7 also, and I'm assuming that 10 will be at least as good.  I could still get Windows XP honked up enough that I had to reboot.  I can't recall ever having to reboot my 7 machine except to install software or updates.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #81 on: June 11, 2015, 05:30:20 pm »
I'll be waiting to see how the subscription thing is implemented. I really don't want to have to deal with Microsoft on a continuing basis just to have a functional OS. Windows 7 can be run, with full Windows Update capability, without ever having to register or "activate" it. I definitely don't want to be required to have some kind of Microsoft account and be required to log in just to run Windows 10. That would be a deal killer. I only use Windows 7 as an operating system, it's the only software from Microsoft I use, everything else is from somewhere else. I haven't started Internet Explorer or Windows Media player voluntarily in well over a decade.
 

Offline smjcuk

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2015, 09:14:29 pm »
I'll be waiting to see how the subscription thing is implemented. I really don't want to have to deal with Microsoft on a continuing basis just to have a functional OS. Windows 7 can be run, with full Windows Update capability, without ever having to register or "activate" it. I definitely don't want to be required to have some kind of Microsoft account and be required to log in just to run Windows 10. That would be a deal killer. I only use Windows 7 as an operating system, it's the only software from Microsoft I use, everything else is from somewhere else. I haven't started Internet Explorer or Windows Media player voluntarily in well over a decade.

It's no different to windows 7 regarding registration and activation and you don't have to use a microsoft account if you don't want to. There's a skip link at the bottom on the OOB screens. For the majority of the non-tech-savvy population, the microsoft account is the right way to go.

They've worked out it's worth sod all to them so they're basically giving it away and hoping you'll pay for the subscription services. Like XBox 360, they can afford to sell at a loss for a long time just to gain market share.

This is how to look at windows...

I just bought a Lumia 640 and I got free Office 365 for a year (full MS office) with it. Paid £119 for the phone, that's £59 of office for free which I was going to buy anyway and a free £20 accessory voucher so I got a 32Gb samsung microSD for that. Add free windows 10 for both the phone and the laptop. All on a £250 laptop including nice monitor (Lenovo X201, docking station, genuine 9 cell battery, 19" Lenovo high end TFT) and an win8 license I got for free from them.

So that works out about £15 a month on IT expenditure over 24 months lifespan of this stuff. I claim £200 a month on equipment expenses and pocket the £185. So that's a nice Rigol scope in 2 months...
 

Offline chickenHeadKnob

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2015, 01:16:43 am »
This is a genuine question - and admittedly I run older computers with Ubuntu and XP - but what can Windows 10 do that older versions cannot?

One of the biggest improvements is high and variable DPI support. Windows 8 has some of it but Windows 10 has improved it even further. Say you have two different sized, different DPI monitors. One is a 4k 27", and the other is a 1080p 24". On Windows 8/10 you can set the DPI of each display individually, and windows will scale properly as they are moved between them. It's a big deal as people upgrade to 4k monitors. Windows XP is hopeless with them, and 7 only just okay if all your monitors are the same DPI.


DPI scaling done properly is a huge win for me. Enough to make me want to upgrade.

I have one desktop dual boot and one laptop with win 7. Microsoft claims to require secure UEFI, however I read that only applies to new OEM machines and you can still  boot with unsigned UEFI on systems you have cobbled together yourself (as I have). That confusion  doesn't inspire confidence, I am going to  delay adoption until I am certain I can do it without screwing up my linux install.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2015, 02:12:48 am »
Agreed with DPI scaling.  I always have two monitors, and they're always different, simply because I don't have/want room for 2 large monitors.
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2015, 04:25:57 am »
I've been using the preview builds for awhile now on a new laptop after having used 7 on the previous laptop. 

The fast boot time is impressive, though it sometimes takes it awhile to actually be responsive to a login.  I really enjoyed the dynamic lock screen content, I hope that comes back.

There's a lot of improvements to the console subsystem (what you run command-line programs in)... they finally officially added the normal text selection mode (instead of just box select) and console windows can be freely resized.  You have to opt in to these features, presumably for compatibility reasons.  This is what I miss most when I go back to my Win7 machines.

The start menu's pretty good.  I think it's a nice compromise of using live tiles and having a start menu.  You can remove all the tiles and shrink the menu down if you like, and then it's even more streamlined than 7.  As in 8, the start menu icon has a very useful right click menu for power users and I really like it.

The desktop calculator is gone right now (or at least I haven't found it), and the "modern" calculator is a very poor replacement IMO.  I'll be bringing the desktop calculator with me from prior OSes, it runs just fine in 10 if you have it.  This is the only thing I have missed moving to 10, and I was able to correct it.

The hot corners and charms stuff from 8 are gone, much to my relief.  I think a laptop touchpad can still be configured to trigger it, but I disabled that in an earlier build and haven't seen it since.

I haven't used Spartan or Cortana at all. 

Happy to answer questions for folks if I can :)
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Offline Rick Law

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2015, 06:34:55 am »
Moving to subscription based model is entirely believable and not unexpected.  It was in every business and tech magazines then about how they would refresh their revenue stream.

Back in late 1990's, I was responsible for 300+ developer's HW/SW needs at a financial related firm.  Microsoft product was of course a good part of the software environment I supported.  They were discussing subscription models with me then perhaps probing customer reaction I suppose.

In early 2000 (by then, I moved to a manufacturing firm), they were actively selling subscription based models.  They pushed it as "upgrade-included support".  It was called Microsoft Select (with "Software Assurance") then.  I can put any version of MS office on the PC (as the tasks called for), since that $ is for the "top of the line" Office Pro with Publisher.  About the same for OS (XP Pro) and I can down grade as needed, and more for the server line of OS'es.  I opted for "open license" which was more or less "clean purchase" instead of subscriptions for the PC's in my shop.

If you think that is but a conjecture, web-search Microsoft Select and Software Assurance.  They may not call it as such, but in practice, it is a subscription based model.

And how sweet (for them), if I got an HP (or DELL, or IBM, or SONY, or whatever), it already came with Windows license from HP, now they got the end user to pay for it over again.  Of course, they say their pricing already put that into consideration...

Their ERP contract was a bit unclear.  It was "support with upgrade".  What bugged me then was, they acquired Navision and Great Plains and they were clearly repositioning the products.  So, as long as they are releasing Navision version X+1, I can upgrade from Version X to version X+1 as upgrade; but if they call it something else say "Vision Great Pain" (I made the name up), I am pretty much left at a dead end with my now-dead ERP.  I can of course purchase new licenses for "Vision Great Pain" and pay for a "new" ERP again - even if every screen was exactly the same except the name, it would be a new product and not an upgrade.  So, the danger was clear: I would be at their mercy.

Now what can be considered a rant:

Something companies like MS doesn't truly understand is: end user doesn't always want the latest and greatest.  If I opted for say OSes moving with their releases, my ERP also have to move with their release, my Office Suite also have to move their release...  So, if I am caught in one, I am caught by all.  It was not even the cost of the software that concerned me; it was the disruption to operation that is many times the cost of even the rather expensive ERP license.

For example, "single purpose machines" like the ones controlling a weight-scale at every production line.  These PCs merely take the production line info (think of it as serial/lot number), the actual weight, and log the info into the database.  A day's interruption on just a single production line will cost thousands of dollars of lost production time.  Any upgrade there would mean I open up the can of worm there - the Scale manufacturer may need to come, the interfacing software developer (written for us on contract) may need to come, but he is divorced and his wife now owns the company (and my predecessor did not have the source code escrowed…)

Looking elsewhere, right at the door, the employee clock-in single-purpose PC(s) are the same thing.  Each served no other purpose.  They just scan the palm, accept the password, and "clock-in" the employee.  Examples like that are all over the shop each doing its own single job.  That damn database link is the Achilles Heel.  It saved a clerk may be 8 hours a month, and cost IT may be 4 hours a week (annualized) to do the damn upgrades and testing.  Each upgrade is huge $$$$ even if the upgrade software is included for "free".
 
"Once when you have the customer by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow."  (Suppose to have been said by Stern - The Stern that NYU Stern School of Business is named after.  Doesn't matter if he said it, some present day CEO's sure acts like they would say that.)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2015, 06:44:34 am by Rick Law »
 

Offline Delta

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2015, 10:24:12 am »
Oh yes, XP doesn't support SSDs properly. Not sure about Vista, but Windows 7 does. If you have an SSD you need to be on at least 7.

??? In my previous workplace we ran SSDs on XP no problems.  They we're in a RAID array, so maybe that helped...
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2015, 02:09:19 pm »
Oh yes, XP doesn't support SSDs properly. Not sure about Vista, but Windows 7 does. If you have an SSD you need to be on at least 7.

??? In my previous workplace we ran SSDs on XP no problems.  They we're in a RAID array, so maybe that helped...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trim_(computing) I presume.
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Offline Delta

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2015, 04:48:33 pm »
Nah, never heard of Trim in fact!  Although we did have to update the firmware in the RAID controller card, I'm thinking that the controller abstracted the SSDs from XP.
 

Offline Galaxyrise

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #90 on: June 12, 2015, 05:40:25 pm »
Nah, never heard of Trim in fact!  Although we did have to update the firmware in the RAID controller card, I'm thinking that the controller abstracted the SSDs from XP.
I was explaining why Win 7 is preferable to Win XP for SSDs.  Win 7 supports TRIM and Win XP does not.  I think there's something about defragmentation, too, where Win 7 recognizes that SSDs don't really benefit. 

Since TRIM is a filesystem level operation, it is likely that your RAID controller didn't implement it either.  But as you saw, an SSD will work without TRIM support (just not as well.)
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Offline rdl

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #91 on: June 12, 2015, 09:24:49 pm »
Windows 7 just tests the speed of a drive. If it's faster than some predetermined limit then it turns off automatic defragmenting for that drive. This is mainly to avoid excessive writing to the drive.
 

Offline rdl

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #92 on: June 13, 2015, 12:13:28 pm »
Windows 7 actually does it both ways. I thought it was by speed test only because I've never seen a drive specifically identified as an SSD in Win 7. My experience is limited though. I guess SSD drives have gotten better at identifying themselves since Windows 7 was first released.



Quote
Will disk defragmentation be disabled by default on SSDs?

Yes. The automatic scheduling of defragmentation will exclude partitions on devices that declare themselves as SSDs. Additionally, if the system disk has random read performance characteristics above the threshold of 8 MB/sec, then it too will be excluded. The threshold was determined by internal analysis.

The random read threshold test was added to the final product to address the fact that few SSDs on the market today properly identify themselves as SSDs. 8 MB/sec is a relatively conservative rate. While none of our tested HDDs could approach 8 MB/sec, all of our tested SSDs exceeded that threshold. SSD performance ranged between 11 MB/sec and 130 MB/sec. Of the 182 HDDs tested, only 6 configurations managed to exceed 2 MB/sec on our random read test. The other 176 ranged between 0.8 MB/sec and 1.6 MB/sec.

Source:

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/e7/archive/2009/05/05/support-and-q-a-for-solid-state-drives-and.aspx
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 12:15:27 pm by rdl »
 

Offline videobruce

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #93 on: June 13, 2015, 12:44:06 pm »
Quote
Microsoft is a software company, so you have to pay for the software.
Last time I looked, there are all kinds of devices that have the "Microsoft" name on it.
 

Offline smjcuk

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #94 on: June 13, 2015, 08:59:53 pm »
Yep.

Staring at an xbox 360 and a Lumia at the moment...
 

Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #95 on: June 13, 2015, 09:06:04 pm »
Last time I looked, there are all kinds of devices that have the "Microsoft" name on it.

Yep. Staring at an xbox 360 and a Lumia at the moment...

And I am responding to this on my Surface Pro 3. (Which is great! And proof that 3rd time's the charm.)
 

Offline saturation

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #96 on: June 14, 2015, 12:17:08 pm »
Thanks to post focusing to 10's improved performance rather than its UI, its something I'd look forward too in my next hardware purchase, as I had with previous Windows iterations.  From here and elsewhere I see an executive summary as:

Performance no less than 7 in terms of execution speed across all apps, and better in others.  Many websites with benchmark reports.
Faster boot times from OFF.
Much improved security: sandboxing, authentication etc.,
Requires same hardware footprint as 7
Can run Truecrypt only with MBR not GPT on drives and BIOS not UEFI, which increases cold boot time

With many legacy applications on my 7 box, many from defunct or custom vendors, should I fix what isn't broken?  A compelling answer would be if periodic security upgrades finally ended for 7.  In some of our old XP boxes, we disconnect it from the Internet and continue to use them for data acquisition.

Since my first post, I've opted to remove the upgrade icon on my 7 box as per Microsoft's instructions.  When I logged on again, it reappeared; I've repeated this cycle 2x, and now the icon stays on permanently.  I know I can delve into the system and finally remove it, but I followed the exact instructions posted by Microsoft so why is the icon still there ? 

We have boxes using Vista,7, XP, both 32 and 64 bit, with ne'er issues as we remove as much of its unnecessary functionality [ e.g. Aero] so they all look and function as close to XP as we can. 

In December 2014, I returned from a trip to the Pacific onboard a plane with wifi.  For 15 minutes, the wifi was opened free as a trial, then it was pay.  I used my Nexus 7 and Droid phone to log on and check it out, booted, recognized, and surfed in less than 1 minute, albeit it was jerky and slow, not worth $35 for the entire trip.

Beside me was a passenger using a Surface; it was beautifully designed, and had those multiwindow icons that popped up everywhere.  As the wifi appeared she pressed buttons here and there, it interacted with her, it showed her some pretty waiting icons, some app notifications awaiting wifi to update itself but 15 minutes later, she still was not connected and the trial was over.

https://tomssl.com/2015/01/15/fix-the-wifi-on-your-surface-pro-3/

After watching her, I took out my old Netbook Win7 Starter edition, cold booted and logged on, and while the trial was over I reached the page for paying in 5 minutes.



« Last Edit: June 15, 2015, 11:27:43 pm by saturation »
Best Wishes,

 Saturation
 

Offline smjcuk

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Re: So, who's taking the windows 10 plunge
« Reply #97 on: June 15, 2015, 07:12:46 am »
Don't like the Surface myself. The battery cannot be easily replaced. After every laptop we've had needing a new battery after 1.5-2 years, this represents a purchase risk. We're sticking to Lenovo T-series and HP EliteBooks company-wide and I'm hanging onto my personal X-series ThinkPad.
 


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