So you want to be an Electrical Engineer? Exam score distribution nightmare.

[EncomLab]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

[jfri2]

That distribution looks pretty normal (for the engineering world at least) to me. A 13 person class too? That's pretty awesome - I didn't see class sizes that small until I got into upper level elective type classes.

[CatalinaWOW]

My school had a junior level control systems course.  Required for all EE degrees.  The average grade for several years running was a high D (acceptable for graduation as long as overall GPA was OK).  A significant fraction of the class failed and had to repeat to graduate.  The returnees did help bring the average up.  I escaped with a C and was very happy with it.  The follow on senior level course was not nearly as difficult.

[Hypernova]

I failed:
2nd year engineering math x1
2nd year electronics x2
3rd year Control Systems x2

This was all at Auckland Uni, barely made it out of there as they were all mandatory courses and you were only allowed three tries per course. C+'s were a cause for celebration and the only A I ever got was 4th year Project.

No one at work would believe me when I tell them that their "R&D Manager" is just a below average engineer.

[Seekonk]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here. 

[Kleinstein]

The results look pretty normal. That is about what you have to expect. The only unusual is the small course. When you look at math classes results are often even way lower, at least in the beginning.

I remember a math test in university where only 1 out of about 80 of the computer science students had passed. The others had to repeat that test. According to the teachers this was not that far of expectations.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Here's another distribution which should concern you a lot more:

https://www.bls.gov/ooh/architecture-and-engineering/electrical-and-electronics-engineers.htm#tab-1

Job Outlook, 2014-24    0% (Little or no change)

Now take a look at how many students are in each university.

[EncomLab]

Alex I agree that number is concerning - though with IoT just starting to grow, a shift toward hardware automation strategies in industries other than manufacturing and some unknown pacing with new areas of embedded systems in things like self-driving cars- that number may be a low estimate. 

[Seekonk]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course. 

[EncomLab]

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course. 

Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

There was another section of the same class and the prof allowed a formula sheet for exams - which I still think is BS - but by the end of the semester I was proud to have made it through without it. 

[Jeroen3]

Nothing to worry about. An equivalent to AC analysis had about 70% redo rate during my embedded systems course. (including me)
They've now decided to merge embedded systems with electronics engineering, and pull it apart after the first year when everybody should have at least basic electronics knowledge.

Meanwhile, later on in the course, the digital signal processing course, created another so called bloodbath. (excluding me, for some reason)

Engineering studies see a lot of students leave halfway. Which is good in my opinion. If they were to adjust the grading to make a wider group pass. A lot of engineers would fail later in their job, which has larger personal financial complications than an unfinished study.

[CatalinaWOW]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course.

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.  Working to a deadline is common to both situations, but exams are designed to take 100% of the allocated time, while properly bid engineering jobs usually only take about a third (1 shift) of the allocated time.  Leaving two thirds of the time for make up/catch up/learning and false starts.  Unfortunately a lot of that time gets used very often, and by the less foresighted among us, just before scheduled delivery.  And finally, do overs are more common in the real world than they are in school.  Model revs are almost standard, whereas it is a joyful occurrence to be able to retake a flubbed test.

One of the useful skills in an engineer is the ability to keep poking at a problem until it is well and truly solved.  It is possible that these really difficult classes help develop the persistence in the face of adversity that is needed to stick with the tough problems.

Of course there are other reasons.  When I was in grad school the math courses were taught out of the math department.  The instructors and professors resented the fact that more than half of the class attendance were engineers and physicists, not math people.  They tried really hard to weed out the "impure ones".  And developed even more resentment when the "impure ones" did better than those who were pure math types.  Probably was because the math had practical applications even though it was esoteric stuff.

[timb]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

I'm not sure what to think. On the one hand, he comes across as a huge dick. On the other hand, if he saved the student a year of struggling and eventually failing, it might actually have been a good move. But I know some (most?) people are quite sensitive to this kind of remarks. I would feel really, really bad about myself.

Of course, from a didactic perspective, this is completely wrong; I don't think any student would feel comfortable asking a question after that. So in my opinion he's just a huge dick.

I did feel it was a little excessive for those students at the time.  But, what he said was true. These students had not done their homework reading and were not prepared for the class.  They wanted to be spoon fed everything.  They thought they were still in high school and only had to be smarter than the dumb kids that weren't going anywhere.  The questions were not of any quality.  I consider him one of my best teachers ever.  Can barely remember the others.  We all need to reflect if we are trying our best.

I think about the implications of having an engineer that only gets 75% of the answers right.  Actually, I see it every day.  It is absurd that in education we move people on after obtaining a minimal understanding, compounding learning in the next course.

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.

See, that's the problem I have with tests like this. It rewards people that are poor problem solvers, but have exceptional memories and punishes people who might be exceptional problem solvers but have poor memory.

My memory isn't the best and I rely heavily on lab books full of formulas and information. I can do the work; I understand the concepts, I'm just not good at memorizing large amounts of data!

And like you said, in a work environment you'll have access to any amount of information you need. So why shouldn't I be able to use that when I take a test?

[EncomLab]

My memory isn't the best and I rely heavily on lab books full of formulas and information. I can do the work; I understand the concepts, I'm just not good at memorizing large amounts of data!

This is a conversation I had with several of my fellow students - basically "yes theory is important, but outside of class I'm using Multisim, Eagle, and Google on the PC along with apps like ElectroDroid and EveryCircuit on my phone to actually build things and solve problems."  The CAD guys are not starting out on drafting tables, the Civil guys are doing everything by GPS and digital theodolites and here we are hand working Thevenin problems from memory - how does this really prepare us for industry?  You guys that are actually out there working - when is the last time your boss had you Thevenize a circuit and show all your conversions from polar to rectangular or he would dock your pay?

[timb]

I'll give you a perfect example... Recently I get a speeding ticket (even though I wasn't speeding) and instead of just paying the fine, I went to court. After presenting my evidence to the judge, he gave me the option of taking a Driver Improvement course and having the ticket dismissed. Great!

So, I found out I could do the course online. Sweet, right? Yeah... You can do the course, but you have to go to a testing location for the final test. So this course was full of these really specific statistics, like the exact number of drunk drivers killed in a specific year. When I say exact, I mean exact, not rounded down, like 1,567 instead of 1500. These were actually questions on the test!

Then there's questions like, "how many feet does it take to stop from 55mph, on asphalt with overinflated tires in the rain." I'm not making this shit up. It was crazy.

10 hours worth of material, with little nuggets like that buried inside.

So, I studied the best I could, tried to memorize as much as I could, and went to take the test...

Apparently The UPS Store does proctored testing for a bunch of companies, including the one I did the Driver Improvement course through, so I drove an hour to the closest location, the guy logs into the system and wanders off. I start the test (which isn't timed), go through and get all the relevant questions out of the way ("What color is a stop sign?", "Who has the right of way at a 4-way intersection?", "What do you do when parking on a hill?", etc.) and completely draw a blank on most of the statistical questions...

Then I realized, nobody is actually watching me. The guy at the counter is dealing with a line of customers and probably doesn't give a shit anyway... So, I pulled out my phone, loaded up the course material and just looked up the answers that way!

The worst part is, some of the questions didn't even have the correct answer (it was multiple choice)! Or either the course material was wrong...

Anyway, I have the hardest time memorizing random data like that. In this case, it was pointless information that doesn't help me as a driver and that I'll never actually use. I don't need to know the exact distance it takes to stop a car (which isn't even accurate as that depends on multiple factors including type of vehicle, type of tire, road conditions and so forth).

Ughhhh... So, so stupid! At least I passed.

[CatalinaWOW]

I'll give you a perfect example... Recently I get a speeding ticket (even though I wasn't speeding) and instead of just paying the fine, I went to court. After presenting my evidence to the judge, he gave me the option of taking a Driver Improvement course and having the ticket dismissed. Great!

So, I found out I could do the course online. Sweet, right? Yeah... You can do the course, but you have to go to a testing location for the final test. So this course was full of these really specific statistics, like the exact number of drunk drivers killed in a specific year. When I say exact, I mean exact, not rounded down, like 1,567 instead of 1500. These were actually questions on the test!

Then there's questions like, "how many feet does it take to stop from 55mph, on asphalt with overinflated tires in the rain." I'm not making this shit up. It was crazy.

10 hours worth of material, with little nuggets like that buried inside.

So, I studied the best I could, tried to memorize as much as I could, and went to take the test...

Apparently The UPS Store does proctored testing for a bunch of companies, including the one I did the Driver Improvement course through, so I drove an hour to the closest location, the guy logs into the system and wanders off. I start the test (which isn't timed), go through and get all the relevant questions out of the way ("What color is a stop sign?", "Who has the right of way at a 4-way intersection?", "What do you do when parking on a hill?", etc.) and completely draw a blank on most of the statistical questions...

Then I realized, nobody is actually watching me. The guy at the counter is dealing with a line of customers and probably doesn't give a shit anyway... So, I pulled out my phone, loaded up the course material and just looked up the answers that way!

The worst part is, some of the questions didn't even have the correct answer (it was multiple choice)! Or either the course material was wrong...

Anyway, I have the hardest time memorizing random data like that. In this case, it was pointless information that doesn't help me as a driver and that I'll never actually use. I don't need to know the exact distance it takes to stop a car (which isn't even accurate as that depends on multiple factors including type of vehicle, type of tire, road conditions and so forth).

Ughhhh... So, so stupid! At least I passed.

What timb did was what engineers are supposed to do.  He found a creative solution to a problem.  There are other solutions this problem in addition to his and deep memorization.   They all have weaknesses and strengths.  A really good engineer thinks of several and then selects the one with the best balance of features.

[jimdeane]

I had a professor back before political correctness.  A student would ask a question.  He would stare at them for a minute and then say, You don't belong here.

"I'm here to learn things I don't yet know.  You're here to teach people things they need to know.  Maybe one of us doesn't belong here, but it sure as hell isn't me."

[rrinker]

 This has nothing on my Signals and Systems course. It's been 30 years and I still hold a bit of a grudge. It seems the math department decided to experiment with adjustments in the curriculum. This was the level when you start doing matrix math and other advanced stuff - taken the semester before the S & S course for EE's. They decided to cut Fourier Transforms and related subjects for half of the math sections. Step ahead to next semester, in S&S, now half the students have seen Fourier Transforms before, the other half have not. Test results reflected this - EVERY exam had a double bell curve (yay boobies...  ). Easily correlated to the half of the class that was doing FT for the first time and the half that was seeing it for the second time. Professor would always say that because of the upper average, no scaling could be offered. As a result, half the class (I was one of those 'lucky' ones) failed that class and had to pay and retake it over the summer in order to stay on track. Second time around, no problem getting an A, but because of an 'experiment' by the math department, it cost me for the class plus the less time I had to work at my summer job.

[TheDane]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Hope you passed 

When I did my B.Sc.E.E we had a math exam where we could not use anything! (No notes, books, calculators, etc.)
Pen and paper only. This was about 15 years ago. It was announced, so it didn't come as a surprise - the calculations themselves were relative 'simple' - but the math wasn't.

[Towger]

I have seen the same with computer science.  Started with about mid 50s in the class and dwindled down to 12 at the end. The bulk dropped out after the 1st year. Again it could be split into groups, those with experience, real interest or worked hard.

I don't think it is still this way but in one of the main Irish collages Computer Science was run by the maths department.  They produced graduates who were brilliant at maths, but they had next to no computer experience. Admittedly this was about 20 years ago before everyone had a PC at home.  We had a couple of these fellows and just watching them find the on switch was interesting. 

[djacobow]

I've been trying to point this out to potential EEs for awhile. In the West, this career path is in decline because it is tied to manufacturing and because a lot of "design" work can be done with people of limited capability. (See "maker" movement.)

If you are good, you probably will always have work, but the overall reduction in demand for EE skills will hurt your earning prospects.

I'm going to encourage my kids to look elsewhere, even though daddy loves being an EE.

[basinstreetdesign]

When I entered university I was in a class of about 1000.  During the first week one of the profs said that by graduation time 2/3 of us would be gone for various reasons.  He said to look at the two people left and right of you.  If at least one of them doesn't look stupid, to start worrying.  He was pretty bang on that statistic.  It was only those who took the courses seriously who got through.

Yeah, I can believe the grade distribution the OP quotes.

Perhaps the driving test had the same intent.  It wasn't about the questions but about taking the material seriously.

Another time when a junior engineer started bugging me to make a tricky scope measurement for him I gave him a task.  I told him to study every control and function of that scope and in a couple of days I would test him on how to use it.  I never tested him.  My purpose was just to get him to learn his tools so he wouldn't be asking others to do his job for him.

[hans]

Isn't 50% failure of introductory/weed out (math) classes pretty common?

I've had a Calculus A exam a few weeks ago and just over half of ~300 students passed. Scoring out of 10: Average was 5,6, but median however was 6,1. Pass was a 5,5. Considering you get the first point for free.. I'm amazed that almost 30 students didn't past a 2,0.

The test wasn't that hard. In summary it was some integration stuff and geometric gradients. This stuff is used over and over again in each subsequent courses like vector calculus, fourier, laplace and signal theory.

It's amazing to see how fast the class shrunk after test results came in. Half of the material is not taught in colleges because of time. The rest is self study, which admittedly took a lot of time. Some students have decided to skip colleges for that reason and rather self study everything anyway. Some of them are quite bright people and get better grades than some who go to every class.

[..]

Engineers are supposed to produce 100%, in spite of the fact that almost none scored 100% on their tests.  How can that be?  They are different problems.  Working from memory with no resources is standard for tests.  It occurs occasionally in work environments, but it isn't the norm.  Working to a deadline is common to both situations, but exams are designed to take 100% of the allocated time, while properly bid engineering jobs usually only take about a third (1 shift) of the allocated time.  Leaving two thirds of the time for make up/catch up/learning and false starts.  Unfortunately a lot of that time gets used very often, and by the less foresighted among us, just before scheduled delivery.  And finally, do overs are more common in the real world than they are in school.  Model revs are almost standard, whereas it is a joyful occurrence to be able to retake a flubbed test.

One of the useful skills in an engineer is the ability to keep poking at a problem until it is well and truly solved.  It is possible that these really difficult classes help develop the persistence in the face of adversity that is needed to stick with the tough problems.

Of course there are other reasons.  When I was in grad school the math courses were taught out of the math department.  The instructors and professors resented the fact that more than half of the class attendance were engineers and physicists, not math people.  They tried really hard to weed out the "impure ones".  And developed even more resentment when the "impure ones" did better than those who were pure math types.  Probably was because the math had practical applications even though it was esoteric stuff.

Indeed this is pretty common. But in college, at least initially, there are different approaches. I also get all my courses right now from mathematicians. These are much more purists towards solving theoratical questions. One example; they rather not have solution manuals for their courses. How do you otherwise check your answer is correct is their reasoning?

TBH for a math test this is a good approach. Most math questions work out to 1 answer; but 1 common writing error or minus sign here or there throws everything off. Having a system of checking your own answers on a test is great. If you solved a DE; fill in the solution into the original formula to check it. If you integrated.. find the derivative again and check it. etc.

In engineering the 'poking' is indeed very common. You can do ballpark figures, build it, test it and determine what is satisfactory for your application. And you can check your build model against a simulation and then research what is wrong.

[rrinker]

 That math fiasco I posted about was bad, but even worse was my electromagnetics course. Remember this is 30 years ago so there were a lot of limits on typesetting where equations and non-ASCII characters were involved. If you've take any electromagnets courses, you know that the various equations end up using nearly every Greek letter at some point (only a slight exaggeration). The professor for this class had a thick German accent (not a problem, my background is Pennsylvania Dutch and one entire side of my family had German accents, when they weren't actually speaking it - well, the bastardized version known as PA Dutch even though it has nothing to do with the Netherlands - mostly because the German word for German is Deutsch and the English would hear this as Dutch). He also had HORRIBLE handwriting - makes mine look like the ultimate in penmanship. This was a major problem trying to take notes from what he wrote on the board, it is very easy to mix up some of those Greek letters. And here's the best part - it did no good to look in the textbook. He wrote the thing. And the university published it internally. Remember those limitations I mentioned? Well, in the text, when there was need for an equation to be written, they left blank space and they were written in by hand - by the professor who's handwriting no one could read! That was a VERY tough class to get through. These days I'd just Google a particular topic and there's be nice clear representations of the equations. That wasn't an option 30 years ago.

[tszaboo]

The grade distribution in my AC Circuits analysis class for our last test and final exam.  I think "bloodbath" about sums it up lol.  Though to be fair this prof did not allow us to use any notes or formula sheets and we are issued calculators by the school for exams so if you were not ready you were in trouble.

Notes formula sheets and calculator...
The US education system is really pathetic.