Author Topic: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!  (Read 4074 times)

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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2023, 06:56:12 pm »
Who would have thought that could happen!
 

Offline AK6DN

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2023, 07:10:05 pm »
From the article ... "The Scottsbluff project features more than 14,000 JA Solar 380W modules, Brown said, and utilizes a single-axis tracker system with hail stow capabilities from Array Technologies. While it's unclear if the asset's hail stow program was activated during the weather event, damage to the face of the modules indicates it was not. "

Indeed.

From Array Technologies website ... "Wind and hail present a dual-threat challenge.  Solar trackers that place modules in a flat orientation during severe wind events paradoxically then place modules at highest risk of damage from large hail. Given that NOAA recorded over 4,600 severe weather events in 2018 with hail and winds over 58 MPH, an inflexible, uncoordinated response to a combined wind and hail event will inevitably increase risk."

I would speculate the high winds came first and the system went into lay-the-panels-flat-mode.
And then the hail, and since the panels were all oriented parallel to the ground to minimize wind load, maximum hail damage.

Mother nature gets you coming and going.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 07:22:31 pm by AK6DN »
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2023, 09:40:28 pm »
Does sound like a tough problem to solve. Either have to make the panels super thick and handle the impacts, or reinforce the structures to take the wind energy.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/12/24/weekend-read-navigating-hailstorms/

They do say "wind instability" so maybe it doesn't directly tear out the panels but might cause them to flex or shake until they fatigue.


Maybe NE can use some of its forfeiture...

Keep it on topic.
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2023, 10:13:09 pm »
Does sound like a tough problem to solve. Either have to make the panels super thick and handle the impacts, or reinforce the structures to take the wind energy.

flip them upside down?
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2023, 10:15:35 pm »
Random events like this is what you have insurance or pooled costs for, at the end of the day a tornado could have come right through and ripped all the panels off. I am sure other electricity infrastructure was damaged as well, and this does not inherently make solar panels useless.
 
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Offline RJSV

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2023, 10:28:20 pm »
   Tom66 has it right, you have to consider that conventional coal fired plants have the distribution issues where individual pockets of damage happen, regularly, such as tree falling on overhead wires...so it could end up being a wash as to which major system is at the most risk.
Seems like the distribution infrastructure dominates the economics, with the generation plant being a close second.
   That, however, still means that HAIL damage is a serious concern.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2023, 10:54:50 pm »
Does sound like a tough problem to solve.

Only economically. You can just make the glass thicker. You could make the module from individual PV+glass segments with rubber backing, a 10x10 cm segment would just move as a whole instead of bending significantly.

Supposedly the Sunman flexible solar cells are also hail tested, I wonder how those even survive "normal" hail to begin with. Maybe they are segmented in such a way that destroyed sections only lower the output?
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2023, 11:03:59 pm »
Only economically. You can just make the glass thicker. You could make the module from individual PV+glass segments with rubber backing, a 10x10 cm segment would just move as a whole instead of bending significantly.

Supposedly the Sunman flexible solar cells are also hail tested, I wonder how those even survive "normal" hail to begin with. Maybe they are segmented in such a way that destroyed sections only lower the output?

Maybe they test with a gap so the flexibility helps with impact absorbtion? Either way their spec sounds impressive.

"The vented gap (height increase of ~15mm) improves panel efficiency and reduces heating of the mounting surface.
A structural silicone (Fix8) can be used to adhere the panel to a surface.
Tough - Hail tested with ice stones of 35mm diameter and 200g mass at 39.5m per sec"

This was standard testing as per the previous link: "According to IEC 61215, product designs must withstand 11 impacts of a 25 mm ball of ice traveling at terminal velocity (~22m/s), which results in an impact force of 1.99 joules."
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Offline MTTopic starter

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2023, 02:00:36 am »
Notice how a panel besides a completely trashed panel are completely free from damage....thats a bit odd.....Hmm!
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2023, 02:01:59 am »
That's just a quantum effect!
 

Offline .RC.

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2023, 04:14:15 am »
That's just a quantum effect!

Schrodinger's cat was alive on those panel. :)

 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2023, 05:55:25 am »
Well, gazillion of PV panels are installed everywhere and such problems are rare. Massive hailstorms also destroy roofs and cars ( https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-lm&q=hailstorm&tbm=isch&sa=X ), yet SiliconWizard is not demanding stronger cars or thicker windshields to be made. At some point it's just diminishing return and it makes more sense to sell lower cost cars/roofs/PV panels which are destroyed in 0.01% cases and just replaced (either by pocketing the savings and paying for it yourself, or paying for insurances upfront), because doing otherwise would incur higher total cost.
 
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Offline DarkMode

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2023, 08:31:02 am »
RIP  |O
This one, a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away, to the future to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was, what he was doing, HA! Adventure Ha, excitement Ha ... you are reckless - Yoda
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2023, 09:19:28 am »
Random events like this is what you have insurance or pooled costs for, at the end of the day a tornado could have come right through and ripped all the panels off. I am sure other electricity infrastructure was damaged as well, and this does not inherently make solar panels useless.
Agreed. It could be these panels are weaker compared to what is usual or that the hail was excessively heavy (or both). Good quality solar panels can take quite a beating:

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Offline Haenk

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2023, 11:37:20 am »
flip them upside down?

That certainly won't help. Depending an the module, there even might be only a plastic film on the back instead of glass on top.

After all, this is just a question of cost saving - I'd say it is overall cheaper to replace weather damaged panels (due to extremely heavy weather) than protect them all from damage in the first place.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2023, 12:21:33 pm »
I'd say sell them at scrap prices to DIYers and let them figure out how to repair or repurpose them for use at home.
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Offline EPAIII

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2023, 12:46:31 pm »
"Useless"? Well, of course not. But you have to think of these things. Insurance may be the answer, but that makes the pay-period longer. Somebody's gotta pay the piper. Free power isn't free.



Random events like this is what you have insurance or pooled costs for, at the end of the day a tornado could have come right through and ripped all the panels off. I am sure other electricity infrastructure was damaged as well, and this does not inherently make solar panels useless.
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Offline Alti

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2023, 01:05:14 pm »
I think hail or wind insurance is a waste of money in this GenPro Energy Solutions case. It would have been more profitable to invest in 10 locations all over the region, based on correlation of hail storms or tornado. Probability of natural disaster everywhere at the same time is zero. Insurer does exactly same calculus, adds markup and puts that on their bill.

As for protecting panels against hail - I guess there is some hail size probability vs toughness equation that governs the cost it takes to make 1kWh long term. If it is ultimately cheaper to make 1kWh with thinner panel - why not? If it is cheaper to make 1kWh with thicker panel - go for it. They are the most competent to answer those questions.

BTW, clearly there are at least two grades of panels installed there. So now they have even more data to feed the model and to infer whether to upgrade in direction of thinner or thicker panels. Their goal is not to avoid cracked panels, but to make money. Are they aware of it? Lets hope so.
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2023, 01:30:51 pm »
Insurance makes sense for events where the cost of recovery (replacing the majority of a solar farm for instance) is far beyond the resources of a single organisation.  Sure, they could keep in reserve the funds to build another solar plant, or build a few more, but what if they don't have access to that capital? Their investors may not want to build 10 plants.  So they might take out an insurance policy at (example) 0.1% of the value of the plant to cover the (example) 1 in 5000 chance of an event like this happening.   Sure the insurance company makes a profit but there's nothing wrong with that - there has to be an upside for both parties.

The same argument could be made for car insurance, beyond legally required 3rd party liability.   Why not just replace the car if it is totalled?  Well most people can't afford that...

Very large organisations can afford to self insure. I doubt, for instance, Apple insures its campus building.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2023, 01:57:16 pm »
That's just a quantum effect!
More likely a resonance effect. One hailstone does nothing, one hailstone meeting the glass on a rebound of another cracks it. Once there is one crack, the whole thing is weakened.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2023, 02:02:33 pm »
As for protecting panels against hail - I guess there is some hail size probability vs toughness equation that governs the cost it takes to make 1kWh long term. If it is ultimately cheaper to make 1kWh with thinner panel - why not? If it is cheaper to make 1kWh with thicker panel - go for it. They are the most competent to answer those questions.
IMO PV is going to move to minimal mounting, minimal materials. There's tricks you can play like connecting segments of PV to each other with serpentine conductors to vastly increase their ability to flex.

It's going to be so cheap that every new building surface can just have it without increasing its cost.
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2023, 10:03:32 pm »
flip them upside down?

That certainly won't help. Depending an the module, there even might be only a plastic film on the back instead of glass on top.

After all, this is just a question of cost saving - I'd say it is overall cheaper to replace weather damaged panels (due to extremely heavy weather) than protect them all from damage in the first place.

You'd have some foam on the bottom, or a triangular shield to divert the wind, etc. pennies worth of material.
It wouldn't be that difficult if the panels could rotate 360 degrees, but, since most panels are only designed around moving within ~15 degrees its probably not realistic cost wise.
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Online tautech

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2023, 01:59:40 am »
   Tom66 has it right, you have to consider that conventional coal fired plants have the distribution issues where individual pockets of damage happen, regularly, such as tree falling on overhead wires...so it could end up being a wash as to which major system is at the most risk.
Seems like the distribution infrastructure dominates the economics, with the generation plant being a close second.
   That, however, still means that HAIL damage is a serious concern.
Only because authorities are too gutless to insist any tree that can reach/compromise critical power infrastructure should have a death warrant out on it.
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Offline Ranayna

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Re: Solar farm wrecked by giant hail!
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2023, 06:51:20 am »
   Tom66 has it right, you have to consider that conventional coal fired plants have the distribution issues where individual pockets of damage happen, regularly, such as tree falling on overhead wires...so it could end up being a wash as to which major system is at the most risk.
Seems like the distribution infrastructure dominates the economics, with the generation plant being a close second.
   That, however, still means that HAIL damage is a serious concern.
Only because authorities are too gutless to insist any tree that can reach/compromise critical power infrastructure should have a death warrant out on it.
Not in Germany :D At least not 20 years back.
I vividly remember a troop of forest workers cutting a lane through a small piece of forest where our overhead line went through. That line was only 220 volts, so not much was actually cut, a falling tree would still have been able to knock it down i think, but anything in danger to actually touch the line was cut.
This was on our land, and we had to pay for that every couple of years.

By now the line has been buried though, as have been almost all power lines in my area.
 
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