Author Topic: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)  (Read 6668 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4766
  • Country: nl
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #75 on: August 11, 2019, 08:17:51 pm »
As @nctnico pointed out it is not about oils of rapeseed or palms but ethanol. EU discourages to use grain and corn for ethanol production in favor of Cellulosic ethanol made out of fibrous parts of plants/trees. Problem with Cellulosic ethanol manufacturing currently is high price of enzymes needed to break cellulose into simple sugars. Technology is not there yet. AFAIK big plants of Cellulosic ethanol were shut down in US and Germany.

Which just goes to show, the directive as it stands will do for now to stem the bleeding. There is nothing they can really grow at the moment which flies under it.
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3209
  • Country: lv
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #76 on: August 11, 2019, 09:58:28 pm »
As @nctnico pointed out it is not about oils of rapeseed or palms but ethanol. EU discourages to use grain and corn for ethanol production in favor of Cellulosic ethanol made out of fibrous parts of plants/trees. Problem with Cellulosic ethanol manufacturing currently is high price of enzymes needed to break cellulose into simple sugars. Technology is not there yet. AFAIK big plants of Cellulosic ethanol were shut down in US and Germany.

Which just goes to show, the directive as it stands will do for now to stem the bleeding. There is nothing they can really grow at the moment which flies under it.

You have strange perspective of "will do for now". When you actually read the document, you will see that set for 2020 maximum 7% limit of biofuels, bioliquids and biomass fuels produced from food or feed crops is *bigger* than current 5.2% *total* share of all types of biofuels (2018 data).
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19743
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #77 on: August 11, 2019, 10:07:14 pm »
There currently isn't any fast growing energy dense high oil percentage non food/feed crop for them to transition to. It's strange they said food or feed crop at all in the new directive, but it will do for now.

As @nctnico pointed out it is not about oils of rapeseed or palms but ethanol. EU discourages to use grain and corn for ethanol production in favor of Cellulosic ethanol made out of fibrous parts of plants/trees. Problem with Cellulosic ethanol manufacturing currently is high price of enzymes needed to break cellulose into simple sugars. Technology is not there yet. AFAIK big plants of Cellulosic ethanol were shut down in US and Germany.
Not quite true. At the beginning (say around 2005) there where a dozen or so companies which wanted to make Cellulosic ethanol. Several of these failed for various reasons (couldn't get the factory up to an economically viable production level, didn't get the process going at all, etc). AFAIK there are currently 2 to 4 companies which are producing cellulosic ethanol on an industrial scale. The technology is defenitely there however the economics do depend on the oil price which is too low at the moment.

BTW One of the problems with palm oil is that the producing countries want to keep selling the stuff. Indonesia for example has threatened to file a complaint to the WTO against the EU for protecting the EU's internal market. So to a certain level the EU has to buy more of this stuff than it actually wants for political reasons.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:20:02 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Marco

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4766
  • Country: nl
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #78 on: August 11, 2019, 10:14:55 pm »
You have strange perspective of "will do for now". When you actually read the document, you will see that set for 2020 maximum 7% limit of biofuels, bioliquids and biomass fuels produced from food or feed crops is *bigger* than current 5.2% *total* share of all types of biofuels (2018 data).

Even a sudden limit at the current level of imports would have done immense harm to the palm oil growing economies at this point, they made a lot of investments for stuff which still has to come on line. Compromises have to be made, an actual limit and eventual phase out is the best you could hope for.
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3209
  • Country: lv
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #79 on: August 11, 2019, 10:19:25 pm »
There currently isn't any fast growing energy dense high oil percentage non food/feed crop for them to transition to. It's strange they said food or feed crop at all in the new directive, but it will do for now.

As @nctnico pointed out it is not about oils of rapeseed or palms but ethanol. EU discourages to use grain and corn for ethanol production in favor of Cellulosic ethanol made out of fibrous parts of plants/trees. Problem with Cellulosic ethanol manufacturing currently is high price of enzymes needed to break cellulose into simple sugars. Technology is not there yet. AFAIK big plants of Cellulosic ethanol were shut down in US and Germany.
Not quite true. There have been a dozen or so companies which tried to make Cellulosic ethanol. Several of these failed for various reasons (couldn't get the factory up to an economically viable production level, didn't get the process going at all, etc). AFAIK there are currently 2 to 4 companies which are producing cellulosic ethanol on an industrial scale. The technology is defenitely there however the economics do depend on the oil price which is too low at the moment.

BTW One of the problems with palm oil is that the producing countries want to keep selling the stuff. Indonesia for example has threatened to file a complaint to the WTO against the EU for protecting the EU's internal market. So to a certain level the EU has to buy more of this stuff than it actually wants for political reasons.

What exactly not quite true? Please be specific. Not quite true that US and Germany plants shut down or what? Sorry that I have to repeat, but where's your up-to date article proving your words "The EU has already started to ban bio-fuels which consume too much land"?

Quote
couldn't get the factory up to an economically viable production level, didn't get the process going at all, etc

In short - results of "technology is not there yet". How else you explain laughably small share of 2nd and higher generation of biofuels?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:25:36 pm by ogden »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19743
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #80 on: August 11, 2019, 10:21:37 pm »
There is a lot of information from the EPA on Cellulosic ethanol production and government funding. I have linked to that before in other threads. And the start of the ban is in the documents you linked to. The process has been put into motion.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline ogden

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3209
  • Country: lv
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #81 on: August 11, 2019, 10:27:53 pm »
And the start of the ban is in the documents you linked to.

There is no "start of the ban" in documents I linked to :palm:
Seems you do not even read. Documents I linked to states 7% limit of "food grade" biofuels while current *total* biofuel consumption is 5.2%. You call it "start of the ban"? - That's ridiculous.

Quote
I have linked to that before in other threads.

Other threads?  :-DD :-DD :-DD
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 11:13:44 pm by ogden »
 

Offline TassiloH

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 95
  • Country: de
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #82 on: October 10, 2019, 01:56:41 pm »
Update October 10/2019: City requests removal of solar bike path

https://www.ksta.de/region/rhein-erft/ende-des-solarradweges-stadt-fordert-hersteller-solmove-auf--die-module-abzubauen-33291282

Summary:
City of Erftstadt says the final deadline to fix Solmove bike path was 9/24/2019 after several extensions, but the bike path has not been fixed. The city gives a new deadline of 10/25/2019 to remove the solar bike path.
Solmove founder Donald Müller-Judex does not accept this decision and also states that the company does not have the funds to pay for restoring the conventional bike path. He also says Solmove paid 4500 EUR to TÜV for review of the bike path design, and two fixes were identified to prevent water ingress and short circuits. He also states that he is just waiting for the OK from TÜV and then the fix could be implemented with just 2 or 3 weeks of labor.
The city states that these publicly subsidized projects come with a deadline.
The solmove founder is disappointed that city council does not want to talk anymore - everybody would have known that this is a test installation and that there might be problems.
The federal ministry for the environment has not decided yet if they will demand their support money back.

As far as I remember, the total cost was 150 kEUR with federal subsidies of 100kEUR.

 |O
 

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2319
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #83 on: October 10, 2019, 05:13:57 pm »
As far as I remember, the total cost was 150 kEUR with federal subsidies of 100kEUR.

I got the information that the total cost was 150 kEUR and 90% was federal subsidies, and payment was only required when it worked. But you are right, in article they wrote that the federal ministry for the environment has not decided yet if they will demand their support money back. This means they already paid it.

But maybe the city didn't pay so far, at least this is what the spokeswoman of the city told me last time I asked. This might then be the reason that they got nervous, because sometimes they reserve money only until the end of the year, then it goes back to the treasury and they have to decide again to use it for the project for the next year. And finally it escalated a bit.

But I wonder why Solmove needed so long. It didn't work since March, and I don't think the TÜV needed 5 months until August to create a report. Otherwise it would have been much more expensive than 4500 EUR. For this money the TÜV might have worked 1 or 2 days for it.

Looks like it will end as previous companies of the founder, with a bankruptcy of Solmove, and then more tax money to remove it. They should sell the individual tiles on eBay, would be fun if Dave could do a teardown ;D
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19743
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #84 on: October 10, 2019, 06:10:15 pm »
But I wonder why Solmove needed so long. It didn't work since March, and I don't think the TÜV needed 5 months until August to create a report. Otherwise it would have been much more expensive than 4500 EUR. For this money the TÜV might have worked 1 or 2 days for it.
Well the process involving the TUV can be slow if Solmove and / or the local government didn't give them all the information in time. Or it took several iterations before TUV could approve the modified design.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2019, 08:27:43 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline FrankBuss

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2319
  • Country: de
    • Frank Buss
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2020, 06:57:38 am »
The drama continues. I updated the first posting, see date February 3, 2020 and May 31, 2020. I guess Solmove will lose the lawsuit and go bankrupt soon.
So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish
Electronics, hiking, retro-computing, electronic music etc.: https://www.youtube.com/c/FrankBussProgrammer
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19743
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Solar frickin' Radweg, Erftstadt/Liblar (Germany)
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2020, 10:31:04 am »
The drama continues. I updated the first posting, see date February 3, 2020 and May 31, 2020. I guess Solmove will lose the lawsuit and go bankrupt soon.
Thanks for the update. However it is too soon to speculate on the future of Solmove. The only source you are looking at is the city's point of view. Since we don't know the exact terms and conditions of the contract there is no way to predict the outcome of the lawsuit. And this lawsuit can likely drag out to over a decade.

Edit: according to Solmove they have fixed the problems (and have 2 other installations up & running) but the city won't allow them to make the repairs. The truth is likely somewhere in the middle.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 05:11:12 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf