Author Topic: Soldering standards on YouTube  (Read 3526 times)

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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2018, 10:41:50 pm »

...well to be fair I have seen complete garbage be pretty strong
but what I recommend is getting a sledge hammer, making a weld on something you actually want to weld with sacrificial metal with all the same lever lengths of torque and giving it a test till you are winded...



Same deal here, but please allow me to share my humble story about weld integrity going south...

I've had the A frame of a professionally made box trailer snap at the body weld join, going over a slight road hump whilst going downhill in the main city at peak hour, quite the adventure!  :scared:
A scene Hollywood could use in the next Avengers or Justice League installment  :D

Safety chains won't bail you out of that worst case towing scenario, because they are joined to the A frame and tow vehicle, with the fully loaded runaway box about to partake in free flight...

Luckily the bottom welds (TOTAL RECALL CORRECTION: the bottom of the unwelded square tube) just barely held enough for me to drag the fully loaded trailer (upturned 75 degrees and scraping ground!) slowly down the hill to level ground and into a side street,
where I managed to level it up by jumping on the top front whilst jacking up the rear, empty the contents and jerry rig secure with rope,
well enough to get the sucker to a local trailer fabricator who pointed out the obvious weld error that should not have been done that way  :palm: 

He re-welded it at the snapped join for aesthetics and welded on a matching extra tube bar under the A frame to the mid section of the box,
in a way that offered maximum support and no weld area to flex or snap,
and it looked cool and original once spray painted over, with that  'never happened' vibe   :-+

Needless to say, any trailer or tow rig I get in the future, no matter how well built, will be getting that mod done to it,
and chains strung inside the tubing from mid box to mid A frame,
just in case too many zombies hop on top during the next Z apocalypse   ;D
 
i.e. if a trailer snaps at the A frame it's SOL City, someone will be hurt, dead, bankrupt,
most likely all three !

That was a lucky day for me when I think back about how it could have been a lot worse, had I been driving uphill or going 100kph on a busy freeway.

fwiw: the trailer load was balanced perfectly with a slight bias toward the tow vehicle, but how can you forecast a disaster like that?  :-//
on top of that the weakened weld points had a nice even coat of paint so even a concerned owner's regular inspection is a waste of time and investment in false security ::)

So yeah, whether it's a good looking bead with obvious penetration burns, or stringed along bird droppings that have 'held solid for years',
all structural welds should be checked and rechecked for flaws and wear and tear stress.


Same deal with soldering, I've sorted out a lot of 'good looking' and 'shiny' joints that were actually dry, cracked, or just sitting pretty on an oily track and or component leg, on cheap and expensive gear
to know better and always assume nothing.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 11:42:27 pm by Electro Detective »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2018, 10:49:57 pm »
well a solder joint is hard to measure and stuff because its small. You can't set it up right easily (for instance look at braze joint strength vs spacing, it peaks around 0.004 inches filler gap.

What percent of nominal failure force at that application did the weld fail at? Like weld size in reference to its say, 75% of nominal for quality amateur work, derated of course, tensile strength. ?
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 10:52:03 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline grbk

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2018, 10:51:55 pm »
Sod the soddering. Why do many people pronounce "idea" as "i-dear" or "i-dee-ar"? I heard Dave and Big Clive saying it like that. What's the "IDR" behind the "r" at the end? Not judging or criticizing - just genuinely interested.

This is called the "intrusive R"
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2018, 11:35:13 pm »
well a solder joint is hard to measure and stuff because its small. You can't set it up right easily (for instance look at braze joint strength vs spacing, it peaks around 0.004 inches filler gap.

What percent of nominal failure force at that application did the weld fail at? Like weld size in reference to its say, 75% of nominal for quality amateur work, derated of course, tensile strength. ?

Two top side 50mm wide horizontal beads, right where the A frame joins the box (a big no-no!),
total failure on both at mid joint and toes,
with perfect crack-age on the paint too,
so with the trailer levelled back up again, you could not tell there was any cracks, till rocked a bit. 

Talk about bad news, the weld failure caused the left and right sides of the solid square tube to sheer,
but luckily for me the bottom of the square tubing held on and flexed with the entire trauma.  :phew:

I wouldn't wish this on anyone... I think  >:D


 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2018, 11:39:57 pm »
I am not sure what exactly that means. I was interested in finding out what the overlap area or weld area is (in square units) so it can be calculated how much would actually need to be required to work in that joint, theoretically, then the percent strenght of your weld vs theoretical.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2018, 11:54:40 pm »
Unfortunately I can't assist there, it was a few years back and I was clueless about welding back then.

The chap that repaired it stated the weld beads were properly done but in a high flex spot,
he grinded down and reworked them with stick rod so they looked the same,
even though they no longer had to play a major support role.

The scary thing is I see a few new trailers and caravans getting around with the same handywork, and they are not DIY

One can only imagine how bad the DIY MIG-ified ones are, hopefully only used on farm land till they expire due to rust or flood...

 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2018, 11:57:09 pm »
i think if you make it thick enough its OK no matter where it is. Keep in mind regular metal will eventually crack too with enough bends. If you make it real thick it wont flex much and even a weld in a bend point is OK but obviously it might look ridiculous etc.

I think its basically amplitude vs time ratio to crack ratio is worse in welds, but if thicker you can match it to a 'perfect' bit of metal so long its not pourous etc.

I don't know where it stands when its properly thermally softened and rehardened .
« Last Edit: December 12, 2018, 11:58:55 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2018, 09:49:18 am »
Thick enough (and ugly) works as long as the heat goes in deep in a few spots and the sides get a good cooking.
If running a gas MIG indoors it's do-able. With stick and gasless MIG it may get tricky.

How well 'thick enough' holds out in a few years time is anyones guess or gamble   :-//

Welding is pretty complicated (to get 100% right) compared to the usual soldering routine (clean, flux, solder, clean, inspect, done)

Once you zap metal and filler metal with an arc it will expand and not contract back where you want it, and parts of the metal grain structure may weaken or distort etc even if the bead/joint looks good.

A solder joint you can blow on to cool it off faster and move on to the next one.
Not so with welding, you have to watch the work subject temperature on a larger project, otherwise amperage settings go out the window if the work piece gets too hot. 

As you stated earlier, the only way to verify weld integrity is to trash a sample and see what the real deal is.

Hey, who says it can't be fun too...   >:D


 
 

Offline CJay

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2018, 11:31:55 am »
Most of the times I've seen welded joints fail they've failed at the side of the weld, I.E. the original metal tears, the weld is usually intact with a piece of the structure attached to it. That would indicate to me the design was placing undue stress on the frame and/or the welding process has somehow softened the material it was intended to 'join'
M0UAW
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2018, 03:51:11 pm »
If it stopped at 'sodder' it would be bearable,
but there are other variations too I hear creeping in, like Sata and Sardur (Lord Of The Universe? fast acting migraine killer?)   :-//

Sorry gents, the sodder vs solder debates may rage on as they will with no truce in sight, but it does say SOLDER on the packaging not SODDER.
Soddering iron and soddering tips and techniques doesn't sound quite right either.

May I add further I don't care to be in that 99.999% club mentioned earlier,
I get along super with all brits, yanks and cauncks   :-+ :-+ :-+
thank yoll very much.
The words “could” and “would” also contain silent L’s, in every dialect of English. Do you still think spelling must 100% correspond to pronunciation?  :palm:

I realize that in the UK, the curse verb “sod” exists, which is why the “soddering” pronunciation sounds so funny to you. But this fact simply does not make the American pronunciation wrong!
 

Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #60 on: December 13, 2018, 03:59:25 pm »
I get shocked when I see DIY trailer welding that's been done by beer swilling neanderthals,
how do they get a roadworthy cert for such slag infested, porous, spray painted bird sh!t beads ?  :-//   

Here is the thing in Florida.  You can build a trailer in your garage, take it to a weigh station, get your slip and then go get it registered and receive a plate for it.  That's it.  It may be different in other states.  Not every state has vehicle inspection either.  Florida doesn't.  Here is a quick synopsis:

Q: Why did Florida do away with annual vehicle inspections?

A: In 1981, then-Gov. Bob Graham and the Legislature halted motor vehicle inspections after complaints about long lines at state-run inspection stations.

Graham was quoted at the time as saying the nearly $20 million spent annually by the state to run the stations could be better spent on law enforcement. The idea was that the job of inspections would fall to officers on patrol that could stop cars on the road if they saw faulty equipment.

Additionally:

As a side note, back in the 1990s, Florida required emissions testing in major metro areas like Miami, Tampa and Jacksonville.

Governor Jeb Bush did away with the program for two reasons: the $50 million cost and because Florida met federal standards for air quality.

I do maintain my own brakes, tires, lights and windshield wipers.  Not everyone does.
That which doesn't kill you still requires a co-pay.
 

Online james_s

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #61 on: December 13, 2018, 04:40:32 pm »
We have an inspection here when licensing a new trailer but you don't have to keep getting it inspected. We have emissions testing for cars more than 3 and less than 25 years old, thankfully mine are old enough to be exempt. I remember going through the tests years ago and wondering if the pollution of all those cars idling in line and driving on the dyno all day long was offset by fixing the few cars that failed the test. The worst failures often got away anyway because after spending a certain amount having the car repaired you could get an exemption if it still failed. I think the emissions testing made a lot more sense back when cars were a lot dirtier and required regular tuneups. Modern cars don't have to be adjusted and will warn you if there's a fault that affects emissions.
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #62 on: December 14, 2018, 01:06:19 am »
Most of the times I've seen welded joints fail they've failed at the side of the weld, I.E. the original metal tears, the weld is usually intact with a piece of the structure attached to it.

That would indicate to me the design was placing undue stress on the frame and/or the welding process has somehow softened the material it was intended to 'join'


Clearly what happened to my rig, bought it new and professionally made, the company made loads of them, fuel station hires etc, common bog standard model, built for work. 

Did a lot of haulage and mileage with no issues for a few years, then the two welds joining the A frame to the box failed big time,
and basically would have been screwed and on the TV and Newspapers if it separated totally  :scared:

The 6x4 fully enclosed box trailer was well looked after btw, no rust and fitted with steel rims balanced light truck tyres, bearings and springs checked etc
you would not know you were towing it on a flat road.

Anyways, it won't fail at that point again...  :phew:

Take the time for a good looksee on your trailer and caravan weld work folks,

check for rust, paint cracks, DIY bird dung welds looking suss etc

Put a bit of force on the stress points, better they crack, break or reveal themselves in the driveway than on a highway 

My experience is a drama you don't need   :--

 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #63 on: December 14, 2018, 01:51:56 am »
Thick enough (and ugly) works as long as the heat goes in deep in a few spots and the sides get a good cooking.
If running a gas MIG indoors it's do-able. With stick and gasless MIG it may get tricky.

How well 'thick enough' holds out in a few years time is anyones guess or gamble   :-//

Welding is pretty complicated (to get 100% right) compared to the usual soldering routine (clean, flux, solder, clean, inspect, done)

Once you zap metal and filler metal with an arc it will expand and not contract back where you want it, and parts of the metal grain structure may weaken or distort etc even if the bead/joint looks good.

A solder joint you can blow on to cool it off faster and move on to the next one.
Not so with welding, you have to watch the work subject temperature on a larger project, otherwise amperage settings go out the window if the work piece gets too hot. 

As you stated earlier, the only way to verify weld integrity is to trash a sample and see what the real deal is.

Hey, who says it can't be fun too...   >:D

Its a bit strange because the people that I do see stuff never bother calculations and do a deload estimate.

For brazing I estimate my contact areas and distances and get a force estimate as to what is happening in that location. Same for epoxy. Then I subtract ALOT because of unforseen factors, low quality materials and shoddy work practices.

For anneling I will cite something interesting I saw: they measured rebars tensile strength after getting it to red heat for bending and other processes. I thought holy hell its gonna be butter. The measurements showed like a 3-5% loss in strength only.

I feel a little crazy unless I can do some basic math to figure out whats going on. I wonder how much time it would take to simulate that trailer as a extreme basic example accurate to like 30% in solidworks or something to see .

For structural stuff I kind of imagine what a bolts and brackets replacement solution would look like, if you can convert the two in your head it might be a good learning tool.

I am curious what a good primer on proper weld design would be before trying to watch 40 hours of indian technical institute videos;


the only cool thing thats unique and interesting about doing welding engineering online, is that when they solve a problem, you can actually go to the garage and weld it up like pretty quickly so long you have basic materials available and test the math out. The stocking requirements for doing your own lab I think will be MUCH MUCH less then say trying to do the same for electronics, but usually if you have that much with electronics your a engineer or equivalent independent. I may try. ITT is actually really good but you need to adapt to the accents.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMVogVj5nJSjLB85-HKhw1aCIBxn3pWj
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 02:03:30 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #64 on: December 14, 2018, 06:08:49 am »
I was not aware of that Youtube channel  :clap:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbMVogVj5nJSjLB85-HKhw1aCIBxn3pWj

"40 hours of indian technical institute videos" may save one countless hours of weld frustration   :-//

The gent's accent is ok, a lot better than some others on Youtube mumbling and sporting flip flops, cheaper than cheapest tools, exposed HV wiring and unfed pets  :palm:

try slowing down the sound slightly, should help, or kick in the Subtitles which aren't too bad.

After having watched many USA based videos already, it's a given I will never be a real welder,
it takes a lot of commitment and time to study and learn the craft PROPERLY,
as well as hit the books on Metallurgy, AC and DC electricals, maintaining and servicing the equipment, choosing consumables to be compatible with the work materials, gases and regulators,
strength and failure testing, X-Ray analysis etc
basic blowtorch and blacksmith skills, and let's not forget the most important > eye protection and big time PPE

I'm talking about gaining a skillset come expertise level where one gets good money for welding, does it easier and signs off on it with confidence, and no comebacks.
That's how I roll with my humble activities, and sleep better at night.   

As a hobby come DIY repairs with ability to knock up some metal bracket or gadget from scrap metal, that's where I am.
I may be way better clued than the average DIY or tradie that buys a shiny rig from a big box store, gets frustrated, upgrades, then sells off the lot dirt cheap  perhaps to someone like me   ;)

The welding turf is best suited for an apprentice who likes to assemble metal and burn rods, and can soak in a lot of information, so that in 10 years time they can make serious money,

assuming automation robots by then don't push the skilled and learned apprentices into hospitality jobs 
serving booze topless to frustrated women, married to 'busy'? husbands that own the automated factories...  ::)


Anyway, soldering/soddering/sardurrring has always been the go for me, and the entire rig fits/crams in a fruit box if I need it packed to take to a job,
...to sort out a welder's dropped TIG/Stick inverter  ;D 

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 09:38:41 am by Electro Detective »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #65 on: December 14, 2018, 10:59:43 pm »
Quote
After having watched many USA based videos already, it's a given I will never be a real welder,
it takes a lot of commitment and time to study and learn the craft PROPERLY

It's a trade/industry. There are a few hoops to jump thru, tuition and respect/dues to be paid, ladders to climb. Just like any other source of income which doesn't really require much special talent.

Yeah, it's harder than soldering. If you want to tackle something truly difficult, try sewing.

The trailer thing wasn't a welding thing. It is a structural engineering conundrum. And the guy knew a good way to fix it because he was an experienced "trailer fabricator." Not because he had mystic knowledge of welding, lol.

As for OP, I think this applies to most skills on Youtube. It's a matter of monkey see, monkey do. In the old days, if you wanted to share knowledge, you wrote a book. Today, you can record something and upload it the same day. There are a few people who make a good living doing this, and there are a heck of a lot of other people trying! It's not a matter soldering standards. The only standard that matters is views.

I remember watching a wranglestar video a few years ago. He was demonstrating a skill. I can't even remember what it was. Let's just say he was building something relatively small but useful. Let's call it a widget. He was dropping all kinds of knowledge bombs on why this was the best way to build the widget. Then 10 minutes into the video, he drops the little nugget that this was actually the first time he was building a widget, but he was an expert because he watched all the other Youtube vids and used Google search.  |O  If this makes him an idiot, I'll gladly be an idiot for several hundred thousand $ a year.  >:D

« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:09:51 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #66 on: December 14, 2018, 11:17:30 pm »
Quote
After having watched many USA based videos already, it's a given I will never be a real welder,
it takes a lot of commitment and time to study and learn the craft PROPERLY

It's a trade/industry. There are a few hoops to jump thru, tuition and respect/dues to be paid, ladders to climb. Just like any other source of income which doesn't really require much special talent.

Yeah, it's harder than soldering. If you want to tackle something truly difficult, try sewing.

The trailer thing wasn't a welding thing. It is a structural engineering conundrum. And the guy knew a good way to fix it because he was an experienced "trailer fabricator." Not because he had mystic knowledge of welding, lol.

As for OP, I think this applies to most skills on Youtube. It's a matter of monkey see, monkey do. In the old days, if you wanted to share knowledge, you wrote a book. Today, you can record something and upload it the same day. There are a few people who make a good living doing this, and there are a heck of a lot of other people trying! It's not a matter soldering standards. The only standard that matters is views.

I remember watching a wranglestar video a few years ago. He was demonstrating a skill. I can't even remember what it was. Let's just say he was building something relatively small but useful. Let's call it a widget. He was dropping all kinds of knowledge bombs on why this was the best way to build the widget. Then 10 minutes into the video, he drops the little nugget that this was actually the first time he was building a widget, but he was an expert because he watched all the other Youtube vids and used Google search.  |O  If this makes him an idiot, I'll gladly be an idiot for several hundred thousand $ a year.  >:D

what are you talking about, he means the physical action of being able to perform a weld to the theoretical limits of what is possible and possibly to be able to evaluate where a joint should be made, like you might want to consult a welder after you draw a schematic in case he sees something wrong based on experience, including ease of construction (it might be much cheaper, faster, or the process might be more reliable if its done in a particular way that depends on the equipment available). I see it a welder as a kind of field engineer / technican combo.. thats what you get with guys doing their own work out of a company. If you get to a bigger company where you can put several people on a single project then you might have people that just do the fusing process and other people that do the thinking and process development steps.. but in terms of learning it by yourself its a combo of engineering/technician/production of the welding field.

Say you need to cut metal quick in the field and the welding company or tradesperson has some specific jigs that work fast and are available, he should tell the engineer that this is available and if its OK that his stuff is used rather then following the design to the T which might call for expensive tooling being purchased for a one time job that is not really necessary.

Because really you can't predict how the welder will do the steps like clamping, cleaning, cutting, beveling, measurement accuracy etc unless you really design the crap out of what you are making, which is possible, but this makes you a weld engineer. Otherwise you are trusting the welder to do that part for you. Same with machine shop stuff, you can give them something to work with or you can try to micromanage it.. unless you really really know their workflow you might end up paying heavily for stuff you don't need (like if you specify a surface finish to something rather then just leaving it as the 'default' of what the shop thinks is reasonable).

Then you get something like a 'good shop':
stuff is reasonably deburred, they take some cosmetic steps that end up improving performance and making it usable (i.e. removing big rust patches)

but if you start specifying tons of shit, you might end up with 3 hours more labor on your part because you said the corners need to be mitered wheras normally the machinist might just run it over with a file real quick and you get a decent free and proud solution that does not really effect their work flow or machines. If you do alot of business the dynamic changes but thats where the whole 'good craftman' thing can play to your advantage as a manufacturer or designer. And this has a side benefit of freeing up their management and your engineering since you don't have  a bunch of communications to establish a whole bunch of stuff that kinda comes out decent based on trade expectations that are loose. Then you can do more R&D and other fun stuff and they don't get hassled and everyones stress level is lower.

If everyone starts being super anal about everything and counting ever step and every finger they lift, it might seem like you are getting more money but eventually you end up with a ton of 'modem people' that just communicate stuff between companies because everyone is doing the least amount of work humanely possible. Then you are just paying for modems. And its unpleasant as fuck to work with that where you end up getting hit with ridiculous bullshit all the time.

Like if you buy things that come shipped covered dripping with dirty oil or have literary razor sharp edges or just unfinished stuff that you think a reasonably intelligent decent human would do before sales you realize that people who 'just know how to do it' are important.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 11:35:44 pm by coppercone2 »
 
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Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #67 on: December 15, 2018, 08:57:45 am »

...I remember watching a wranglestar video a few years ago. He was demonstrating a skill. I can't even remember what it was. Let's just say he was building something relatively small but useful. Let's call it a widget. He was dropping all kinds of knowledge bombs on why this was the best way to build the widget.

Then 10 minutes into the video, he drops the little nugget that this was actually the first time he was building a widget, but he was an expert because he watched all the other Youtube vids and used Google search.  |O 

If this makes him an idiot, I'll gladly be an idiot for several hundred thousand $ a year.  >:D



I've watched a few of those, and others as well that pop up on the links right side of the browser (Essential Craftsman, Buckin Billy Ray Smith  :o  etc),
 they are pretty good 'Christian orientated' Homestead lifestyle videos, TBH my crusty tools and skills have improved watching these gents   :-+ 

You can sense competition amongst them and mild b!tchin,
they should chill and thank Youtube for the lack of cash they were sorta expecting.  >:D

You won't see too many useful welding videos from these tubers, maybe some 'good enough' Lincoln Tombstone repairs,
 and advice for battling farmers etc that need to fix metal tools, gates, frames and machinery on their usual sub zero budget  :horse:

Their soddering skill needs serious WORK  :palm:  maybe a few PACE and EEVblog videos to understand what the go is   :popcorn:

That said, I'd rather buddy up with wysiwyg Homesteaders that I find are generally low on BS and not scared of work,
and lose the urban thing if the choice had to be made,
or time for a sea change ( aka no decent money to be made in the big smoke, and too many eyesores)
 


 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #68 on: December 15, 2018, 09:05:10 am »
i dunno man I spent some time with farmers and their kinda aggressive and mean to be honest, its not what you think so much. They are extremely frugal with every thing to the point where its annoying to talk to them (almost everything seems to turn into a financial discussion) but on the other hand they do like making stuff.. but I noticed alot are often really pissed off.

The older ones seem to be in worse physical condition then city folk often for some reason, I think stress.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 09:06:43 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Soldering standards on YouTube
« Reply #69 on: December 15, 2018, 11:04:17 pm »

Different countries have different farmer shafting levels imposed on them from the mansion housed crooks controlling the money supply and trade

The rural people here do it tough, but haven't been run into the ground yet afaict

 


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