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| Halcyon:
--- Quote from: Someone on September 15, 2022, 11:00:57 pm --- --- Quote from: james_s on September 15, 2022, 08:52:24 pm ---Pedestrians often ignore the signals and walk in every which way, leaving drivers stuck in the middle of intersections as pedestrians end up blocking both the entry and exit to the intersection while the driver has a green light. --- End quote --- Depends how you read the road rules (for your non-specified jurisdiction). In both California and Australia a driver at a set of traffic lights is not supposed to enter unless they can leave the intersection, so anyone becoming stranded/stuck is entirely their own fault. Is that enforced? nope, but it is a rule that prevents your "problem". --- End quote --- That's actually not true. Drivers are permitted and in some cases required to enter the intersection when about to make a left or right turn. You only stop at the stop line (in the case of most traffic lights, the first line in the direction of travel) when you are given an amber or red signal, or where a stop sign applies. When you get a green signal, flashing amber or no signal at all, you may enter the intersection and give way (as required) depending on the type of intersection. If you have already entered an intersection and the traffic signal turns red before you have had a chance to turn, you are permitted to complete the turn when is it safe to do so (Rule 61(5) of the Australian Road Rules). |
| Someone:
--- Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2022, 07:20:43 am --- --- Quote from: Someone on September 15, 2022, 11:00:57 pm --- --- Quote from: james_s on September 15, 2022, 08:52:24 pm ---Pedestrians often ignore the signals and walk in every which way, leaving drivers stuck in the middle of intersections as pedestrians end up blocking both the entry and exit to the intersection while the driver has a green light. --- End quote --- Depends how you read the road rules (for your non-specified jurisdiction). In both California and Australia a driver at a set of traffic lights is not supposed to enter unless they can leave the intersection, so anyone becoming stranded/stuck is entirely their own fault. Is that enforced? nope, but it is a rule that prevents your "problem". --- End quote --- That's actually not true. Drivers are permitted and in some cases required to enter the intersection when about to make a left or right turn. You only stop at the stop line (in the case of most traffic lights, the first line in the direction of travel) when you are given an amber or red signal, or where a stop sign applies. When you get a green signal, flashing amber or no signal at all, you may enter the intersection and give way (as required) depending on the type of intersection. If you have already entered an intersection and the traffic signal turns red before you have had a chance to turn, you are permitted to complete the turn when is it safe to do so (Rule 61(5) of the Australian Road Rules). --- End quote --- Lol, given your previous post with its slightly off/outdated information I guessed you would come in with the old version on this. --- Quote ---62 GIVING WAY WHEN TURNING AT AN INTERSECTION WITH TRAFFIC LIGHTS (1) A driver turning at an intersection with traffic lights must give way to-- (a) any pedestrian at or near the intersection who is crossing the road the driver is entering, ... --- End quote --- Even turning at traffic lights, arriving at an intersection drivers must be ready to stop and give way. --- Quote ---128 ENTERING BLOCKED INTERSECTIONS A driver must not enter an intersection if the driver cannot drive through the intersection because the intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, is blocked. Examples : The intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, may be blocked by congested traffic, a disabled vehicle, a collision between vehicles or between a vehicle and a pedestrian, or by a fallen load on the road. --- End quote --- So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not).... your 61(5): --- Quote ---(5) If the traffic lights or traffic arrows (as the case may be) change to yellow or red while the driver is stopped and the driver has entered the intersection, the driver must leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely. --- End quote --- Requires that the driver entered the intersection legally, so from 128 the exit was clear. Very few situations would have the exit become blocked after it was clear (not impossible), and there was no requirement to enter. What's enforced is not always what the law actually says, particularly when the law changes. And just like you jumped with obstructing traffic by pedestrians, there is a almost identical rule for drivers: --- Quote ---125 UNREASONABLY OBSTRUCTING DRIVERS OR PEDESTRIANS (1) A driver must not unreasonably obstruct the path of another driver or a pedestrian. --- End quote --- |
| Halcyon:
--- Quote from: Someone on September 16, 2022, 07:41:11 am ---Lol, given your previous post with its slightly off/outdated information I guessed you would come in with the old version on this. --- End quote --- Linked for your information: https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/sl-2014-0758#sec.61 This is the current enforceable version as at 29/07/2022. Obviously to be read in conjunction with the relevant rules depending on the circumstances and intersection. It's a common mistake people make a set of traffic lights... the correct way (and the way the roads authorities will teach) is when you are given a signal to turn at a set of traffic lights, you should enter the intersection and give way to on-coming traffic (also pedestrians if there are any crossing at the road you are entering). If the light changed to red before you have had a chance to turn, you should complete your turn if/when it is safe to do so. If it is not safe to proceed, you are permitted to stop and wait beyond the stop line. --- Quote from: Someone on September 16, 2022, 07:41:11 am ---So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not) --- End quote --- You could start with Rules 27, 28, 31, 32 (and in the cases of the hook turn, Rule 34). Here's a snippet that applies to this particular rule: 32 Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road (1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection... Obviously there is more to this rule and doesn't apply in every circumstance. Legislation is (mostly) not designed to be read in isolation. There are always exceptions and other rules which take precedence, depending on where you are, the type of road, type of intersection, markings, signage etc... etc... This is why it's important for people to study and understand the road rules, not just assume what they have been doing for many years (or what they've been told) is correct. I know there might be some nuances where a single word can make all the difference, but that's law for you. As I said, 14 years in the job (some of that in highway patrol), I think I have a fair idea (even if I can't quote the road rules off the top of my head word-for-word). |
| Someone:
--- Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2022, 07:51:26 am --- --- Quote from: Someone on September 16, 2022, 07:41:11 am ---So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not) --- End quote --- You could start with Rules 27, 28, 31, 32 (and in the cases of the hook turn, Rule 34). Here's a snippet that applies to this particular rule: 32 Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road (1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection... --- End quote --- Taking that quote wildly out of context! Lets add the missing bit... --- Quote ---32 Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road (1) A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane unless-- --- End quote --- The rule describes what the driver must do on approach and entering, not obliging them to enter. --- Quote from: Halcyon on September 16, 2022, 07:51:26 am ---I know there might be some nuances where a single word can make all the difference, but that's law for you. As I said, 14 years in the job (some of that in highway patrol), I think I have a fair idea (even if I can't quote the road rules off the top of my head word-for-word). --- End quote --- You have ingrained in you what is/was enforced and "normalised" not what the law actually is. You talk about "safe to proceed" when the point I am discussing is not just is it safe to enter, but whether the driver can exit the intersection. Which is its own standalone rule and consistent with the other road rules. There is no requirement to enter an intersection, and none that overrides the law obliging people to not enter an intersection they cannot exit. |
| Ed.Kloonk:
In a previous century, I failed a driving test for not moving into the intersection under the green but not green right arrow situation. |
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