Author Topic: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags  (Read 8064 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: au
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #50 on: September 16, 2022, 07:20:43 am »
Pedestrians often ignore the signals and walk in every which way, leaving drivers stuck in the middle of intersections as pedestrians end up blocking both the entry and exit to the intersection while the driver has a green light.
Depends how you read the road rules (for your non-specified jurisdiction). In both California and Australia a driver at a set of traffic lights is not supposed to enter unless they can leave the intersection, so anyone becoming stranded/stuck is entirely their own fault. Is that enforced? nope, but it is a rule that prevents your "problem".

That's actually not true. Drivers are permitted and in some cases required to enter the intersection when about to make a left or right turn. You only stop at the stop line (in the case of most traffic lights, the first line in the direction of travel) when you are given an amber or red signal, or where a stop sign applies.

When you get a green signal, flashing amber or no signal at all, you may enter the intersection and give way (as required) depending on the type of intersection.

If you have already entered an intersection and the traffic signal turns red before you have had a chance to turn, you are permitted to complete the turn when is it safe to do so (Rule 61(5) of the Australian Road Rules).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 07:24:35 am by Halcyon »
 
The following users thanked this post: Rick Law

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #51 on: September 16, 2022, 07:41:11 am »
Pedestrians often ignore the signals and walk in every which way, leaving drivers stuck in the middle of intersections as pedestrians end up blocking both the entry and exit to the intersection while the driver has a green light.
Depends how you read the road rules (for your non-specified jurisdiction). In both California and Australia a driver at a set of traffic lights is not supposed to enter unless they can leave the intersection, so anyone becoming stranded/stuck is entirely their own fault. Is that enforced? nope, but it is a rule that prevents your "problem".
That's actually not true. Drivers are permitted and in some cases required to enter the intersection when about to make a left or right turn. You only stop at the stop line (in the case of most traffic lights, the first line in the direction of travel) when you are given an amber or red signal, or where a stop sign applies.

When you get a green signal, flashing amber or no signal at all, you may enter the intersection and give way (as required) depending on the type of intersection.

If you have already entered an intersection and the traffic signal turns red before you have had a chance to turn, you are permitted to complete the turn when is it safe to do so (Rule 61(5) of the Australian Road Rules).
Lol, given your previous post with its slightly off/outdated information I guessed you would come in with the old version on this.

Quote
62 GIVING WAY WHEN TURNING AT AN INTERSECTION WITH TRAFFIC LIGHTS
(1) A driver turning at an intersection with traffic lights must give way to--
(a) any pedestrian at or near the intersection who is crossing the road the driver is entering, ...
Even turning at traffic lights, arriving at an intersection drivers must be ready to stop and give way.
Quote
128 ENTERING BLOCKED INTERSECTIONS
A driver must not enter an intersection if the driver cannot drive through the intersection because the intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, is blocked.

Examples : The intersection, or a road beyond the intersection, may be blocked by congested traffic, a disabled vehicle, a collision between vehicles or between a vehicle and a pedestrian, or by a fallen load on the road.
So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not)....  your 61(5):
Quote
(5) If the traffic lights or traffic arrows (as the case may be) change to yellow or red while the driver is stopped and the driver has entered the intersection, the driver must leave the intersection as soon as the driver can do so safely.
Requires that the driver entered the intersection legally, so from 128 the exit was clear. Very few situations would have the exit become blocked after it was clear (not impossible), and there was no requirement to enter.

What's enforced is not always what the law actually says, particularly when the law changes.

And just like you jumped with obstructing traffic by pedestrians, there is a almost identical rule for drivers:
Quote
125 UNREASONABLY OBSTRUCTING DRIVERS OR PEDESTRIANS
(1) A driver must not unreasonably obstruct the path of another driver or a pedestrian.
 

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: au
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #52 on: September 16, 2022, 07:51:26 am »
Lol, given your previous post with its slightly off/outdated information I guessed you would come in with the old version on this.

Linked for your information: https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/sl-2014-0758#sec.61

This is the current enforceable version as at 29/07/2022.

Obviously to be read in conjunction with the relevant rules depending on the circumstances and intersection.

It's a common mistake people make a set of traffic lights... the correct way (and the way the roads authorities will teach) is when you are given a signal to turn at a set of traffic lights, you should enter the intersection and give way to on-coming traffic (also pedestrians if there are any crossing at the road you are entering). If the light changed to red before you have had a chance to turn, you should complete your turn if/when it is safe to do so.

If it is not safe to proceed, you are permitted to stop and wait beyond the stop line.

So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not)

You could start with Rules 27, 28, 31, 32 (and in the cases of the hook turn, Rule 34).

Here's a snippet that applies to this particular rule:

32   Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road

        (1)  A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection
...

Obviously there is more to this rule and doesn't apply in every circumstance. Legislation is (mostly) not designed to be read in isolation. There are always exceptions and other rules which take precedence, depending on where you are, the type of road, type of intersection, markings, signage etc... etc...

This is why it's important for people to study and understand the road rules, not just assume what they have been doing for many years (or what they've been told) is correct.

I know there might be some nuances where a single word can make all the difference, but that's law for you. As I said, 14 years in the job (some of that in highway patrol), I think I have a fair idea (even if I can't quote the road rules off the top of my head word-for-word).
« Last Edit: September 16, 2022, 08:34:03 am by Halcyon »
 
The following users thanked this post: Rick Law

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #53 on: September 16, 2022, 09:14:56 am »
So do show us the rule you claim requires a driver to enter an intersection (when they wouldn't be able to leave or not)

You could start with Rules 27, 28, 31, 32 (and in the cases of the hook turn, Rule 34).

Here's a snippet that applies to this particular rule:

32   Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road

        (1)  A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection
...
Taking that quote wildly out of context! Lets add the missing bit...
Quote
32   Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road
        (1)  A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane unless--
The rule describes what the driver must do on approach and entering, not obliging them to enter.

I know there might be some nuances where a single word can make all the difference, but that's law for you. As I said, 14 years in the job (some of that in highway patrol), I think I have a fair idea (even if I can't quote the road rules off the top of my head word-for-word).
You have ingrained in you what is/was enforced and "normalised" not what the law actually is. You talk about "safe to proceed" when the point I am discussing is not just is it safe to enter, but whether the driver can exit the intersection. Which is its own standalone rule and consistent with the other road rules. There is no requirement to enter an intersection, and none that overrides the law obliging people to not enter an intersection they cannot exit.
 

Offline Ed.Kloonk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4000
  • Country: au
  • Cat video aficionado
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #54 on: September 16, 2022, 09:38:50 am »
In a previous century, I failed a driving test for not moving into the intersection under the green but not green right arrow situation.
iratus parum formica
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: au
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2022, 02:51:23 am »
You have ingrained in you what is/was enforced and "normalised" not what the law actually is. You talk about "safe to proceed" when the point I am discussing is not just is it safe to enter, but whether the driver can exit the intersection. Which is its own standalone rule and consistent with the other road rules. There is no requirement to enter an intersection, and none that overrides the law obliging people to not enter an intersection they cannot exit.

I have ingrained in me the correct way of driving defensively. Not interpreting the rules how I see fit. I was taught from a very young age how to read, understand and apply the road rules. Those skills were only further enhanced by paying for additional driver training when I was younger, plus my experience within the emergency services (not to mention, I was also a police driver trainer). I'm not pretending to be the worlds best driver and like everyone else, I have made mistakes before, but driving according to the rules is the reason that I've never been involved in an at-fault collision in 20+ years of driving.

Crashes happen when the law isn't followed and people decide to do their own thing or take risks which backfire.

As for "no requirement to enter an intersection", I literally just provided you with legislation that says that's just what you do (in normal circumstances). That's why I emphasised the word must, it wasn't optional. Of course safety overrides everything you do as a driver (which is why legislation is written the way it is), but 99.9% of the time when you're driving on a road and nothing unusual it's going on, it's safe to follow the rules to the letter.

Good driving isn't just about understanding and following the law, but also about being predictable as a driver. Take an intersection controlled by traffic lights for example, if someone is waiting to turn and is given a green signal and doesn't move forward into the intersection, to me, my spidey senses go off and I automatically assume the person in front of me is inexperienced, inattentive, or unpredictable, because that behaviour in that particular circumstance is abnormal.

In a previous century, I failed a driving test for not moving into the intersection under the green but not green right arrow situation.

Yep, because, as we've discussed, moving into the intersection was the correct thing to do, even then.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2022, 02:54:13 am by Halcyon »
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #56 on: September 17, 2022, 03:47:59 am »
I was taught from a very young age how to read, understand and apply the road rules. Those skills were only further enhanced by paying for additional driver training when I was younger, plus my experience within the emergency services (not to mention, I was also a police driver trainer).
Were taught, under the prevailing rules and standards of the past. But it appears your teaching of how to read and understand is faulty.

As for "no requirement to enter an intersection", I literally just provided you with legislation that says that's just what you do (in normal circumstances). That's why I emphasised the word must, it wasn't optional.
Which you have completely misinterpreted. Lets run it again as a worked example of language:
Quote
32   Starting a right turn from a multi-lane road
        (1)  A driver turning right at an intersection from a multi-lane road must approach and enter the intersection from within the right lane unless--
(A driver) (turning right) at an (intersection (from a multi-lane road)) must (approach and enter the intersection) from (within the right lane) unless--
rearranging that to a more natural phrasing:
Drivers must remain within the right lane on approach and entering an intersection if they are turning right at an intersection with multiple lanes, unless--

the must is not on the action of entering, it is in the situations of both approach and entering that a driver must remain within the right lane

Your comprehension is woeful, but you come back with more bluster and no actual progress. None of this is inconsistent with rule 128 that drivers must not enter an intersection from which they cannot leave (because for instance there are cars or pedestrians in the way blocking the exit)

But hey do link back out to the legislation just to throw shade as if these direct quotes of the road rules arent verbatim... ;)
Linked for your information: https://legislation.nsw.gov.au/view/html/inforce/current/sl-2014-0758#sec.61
When you are the one taking partial quotes out of context.
 

Offline Someone

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5155
  • Country: au
    • send complaints here
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #57 on: September 17, 2022, 04:13:50 am »
In a previous century, I failed a driving test for not moving into the intersection under the green but not green right arrow situation.
Absolutely, what used to be the priority (moving into the intersection) has changed (not blocking the intersection).

As an example the current NSW driving test has the specific example:
Quote
You will fail if you unreasonably obstruct other vehicles or pedestrians during the test. This includes if you:
enter an intersection without enough space on the other side due to traffic, blocking the intersection as a result
hard for teachers/examiners to reliably create that situation!

While failure to enter an intersection is still assessed but downplayed (not explicitly listed as a standalone rule as above) and left with more judgement for the examiner:
Quote
During the test you will be expected to demonstrate smooth, flowing decision making. If you reject safe gaps or unduly stop at intersections when it is clearly safe to proceed, you may fail.
 

Offline Jester

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 898
  • Country: ca
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #58 on: September 17, 2022, 02:26:34 pm »
We live in Canada and spent too long in a large city (Toronto, 3 million people).

Toronto
Walking even on side streets was often hazardous because there are way too many distracted drivers racing home at 7pm, hungry and probably still thinking about work and their gazillion dollar mortgage as well as all the problems big city life brings with it. Common for a car to pass within a foot of you at 50km/hr on a side street when the road is otherwise empty.

We also have a summer place near a small tourist town in the Laurentians (hilly countryside in Quebec)
St. Jovite
Complete opposite of Toronto and a complete pleasure to walk or drive. When driving and trying to enter a road from say a parking lot, 90% of the time the cars going down the road will yield to you with a little smiling wave, in Toronto they would speed up and shift over to make sure you would not even think about entering.

Walking is similar, they have "crosswalks" but "J-walking" is super common, you make eye contact with the driver, they slow down to give you the 5 seconds it takes to pass in front, a little smile or nod and traffic resumes without skipping a beat.

The dichotomy when transitioning between the two environments surprises me even after 25 years.
 

Online Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8135
  • Country: gb
Re: some USA states replaces trafic lights with flags
« Reply #59 on: September 17, 2022, 04:16:10 pm »
Walking is similar, they have "crosswalks" but "J-walking" is super common, you make eye contact with the driver, they slow down to give you the 5 seconds it takes to pass in front, a little smile or nod and traffic resumes without skipping a beat.

Wait wait wait, you mean it's possible for people to cross the road without flashing lights, painted crossings, and ten minutes of advance warning to drivers? And that it doesn't actually impact the drivers getting where they're going? Don't tell james_s or Rick Law, you might give them an aneurysm.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf