EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: EEVblog on August 07, 2022, 11:33:02 am
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This is kinda cool, but I'm not sure how effective it's going to be to learn or spark interest in electronics? :-//
Same company who made the Turing Tumble.
https://upperstory.com/spintronics
https://upperstory.com/spintronics/assets/circuit-write-in-video-2-1mpbs.mp4
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Intriguing.
Somebody has put a lot of effort into developing a practical implementation of an electronics analogy.
This is kinda cool, but I'm not sure how effective it's going to be to learn or spark interest in electronics? :-//
I agree.
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(https://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/1444919671-20151015.png)
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I'm not sure how effective it's going to be to learn or spark interest in electronics?
This is my second run-in with electronics. The first, when I was at school, I hated because I couldn't see how things worked. With mechanical stuff it's obvious, but with electronics you have to pretend stuff and it made no sense to me. Hence I became a mechanic (amongst other stuff). It was only much later with a proper education in electronics that I understood it and liked it.
This very cool kit might be the stepping stone from the easily understood mechanical toy to the pretty abstract electronic circuits. I could see some interesting circuit being put together and then translated to a real circuit to show how much easier and simpler it is to solder stuff than machine parts :)
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This is my second run-in with electronics. The first, when I was at school, I hated because I couldn't see how things worked. With mechanical stuff it's obvious, but with electronics you have to pretend stuff and it made no sense to me.
I can relate to that. Did not enjoy the electronics kits I had as a kid, since I could not see what was going on inside. What eventually fixed that for me was the oscilloscope, which I only got introduced to in some freshman physics labs at uni.
So I see the value of "tangible" models, which are more affordable and more basic than a scope. But the Spintronics mechanical gears and chains don't do the trick for me -- they seem forced as a model and not intuitive at all. Deep in "Armadillo" territory, as nicely illustrated by abquke. ::)
The "water pipe" analogy works much better for me. Direct equivalents of current (flow rate), voltage (pressure), resistors (pipe cross section), capacitors (flexible balloons), Kirchhoff's laws etc.. I never physically built such a system -- although it seems quite straightforward -- but find the analogy most helpful to illustrate many basic concepts in electronic circuits.
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Problem with the water model is the mess when smoke escapes. On the mechanical model it's just a broken chain ;)
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Anyone interested in analogies like this should read Dynamical Analogies (https://archive.org/details/DynamicalAnalogies/mode/2up) by the eminent acoustic engineer Harry F. Olson. Might not learn anything about electronics, but you probably will learn something about acoustics.
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I second this. SMBC is smart.
I had a manager, who turned everything into car analogy. Even electronics. I had to tell him multiple times to just stop, I understand how electronics works better than cars.
And this kit is cool looking, I think I'll get it once it came out of beta status.
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A bad analogy is like a bumblebee under water.
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Banana flies like time arrows. Or something like that.
I can also imagine that comic playing out verbatim by Paul Stanley (currently at Duke U.). Not that his analogies were ever so bad, but the humor is spot on.
Tim
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Hmm, my problem with analogies is that you never know to which degree they hold up. I think it is way more educational for a kid to show some circuit in LTSpice and then build the the same circuit on a breadboard and
confirm what LTSpice tells you with an actual multimeter or scope reading. Now when the child says Hey what if we do this to the circuit? Alright put it in LTSpice and see what you get. Then the concepts of voltage, current really starts to live for what it actually is.
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I can look at an analog or a discrete digital schematic and think yep, yep, I can see what's going on here. No big deal. A musician can look at a page of sheet music and "hear" what the music sounds like. Not me though.
When I program in assembly I almost always visualise the operations kind of mechanically.
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way more educational for a kid to show some circuit in LTSpice and then build the the same circuit on a breadboard and
confirm what LTSpice tells you with an actual multimeter or scope reading
Didn't work for me. Not that electronics kits came with LTSpice, nor a scope. Not even a multimeter. And if they had they would have meant nothing at all. I think at that age it's hard to hold a coherent set of abstractions together - the pretending something invisible is going on at one end, then the completely arbitrary squiggly stuff being shown at the other, and zero idea of what the bits in between are doing. In my case at least there were sounds coming out in response to contacts being pressed, but it's just another magic trick like how cars go and bikes don't fall over, etc.
Now, Meccano was different in that you can see and feel and break things in a knowing way. You might not know you've built a lever but it levers all the same, regardless of what battery you're not using or fancy display you don't have and complete lack of instructions. It's relatable in a way that invisible, silent electricity isn't.
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I wonder if the generations that grew up on vacuum tubes found it easier to visualise what was going on in a circuit? The fact that you could see where the electrons were coming from and going to, and the grid(s) that had an effect on them.
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This analogies thing... don't know if they are useful or not, but perhaps we're looking at the wrong end on this.
Typically, the water pipes analogy is used. You show a resistor and say how that's like having a narrower pipe, which kind of works but then breaks down when you go a bit far (or some pedantic nerd joins in). But what if you did it the other way: tell a plumber that a resistor is just like a narrow pipe. There is less chance of the analogy breaking down in that direction because he doesn't know enough about the resistor to realise where it falls over (he knows plenty about pipes, but that's not what he's trying to understand). Dig deep enough so the analogy does break down, and by then he should know enough for electronics to be standalone.
So here instead of trying to describe electronics with mechanical simulacrums, the trick would be to use these specific modules to make circuits. And only those modules. Ultimately, when you've got the hang of what can be done, and how, it should be relatively easy to replace those modules with their electronic equivalent since you already know what they do and basically how they do it, it's just the detail that changes.
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I wonder if the generations that grew up on vacuum tubes found it easier to visualise what was going on in a circuit? The fact that you could see where the electrons were coming from and going to, and the grid(s) that had an effect on them.
Maybe!
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But what if you did it the other way: tell a plumber that a resistor is just like a narrow pipe. There is less chance of the analogy breaking down in that direction because he doesn't know enough about the resistor to realise where it falls over (he knows plenty about pipes, but that's not what he's trying to understand). Dig deep enough so the analogy does break down, and by then he should know enough for electronics to be standalone.
Isn't that how analogies are typically used? Use models which are familiar to your audience, to introduce them to concepts which are unfamiliar and maybe abstract?
So here instead of trying to describe electronics with mechanical simulacrums, the trick would be to use these specific modules to make circuits. And only those modules. Ultimately, when you've got the hang of what can be done, and how, it should be relatively easy to replace those modules with their electronic equivalent since you already know what they do and basically how they do it, it's just the detail that changes.
But that's one of the problems I have with "Spintronics": Just looking at them as a mechanical system, the designs seem a bit strange. Gear ratios, gear & chain/belt, slip clutches etc. are all fine -- but why would you build something like this? I would not even get as far as translating it into electronics, because the mechanical design seems absurd in the first place. ::)
(https://upperstory.com/spintronics/science/assets/complicated-science-circuit.jpg)
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Thinking about it some more, I think the big problem with electronics is that there are two issues which you're having to solve at the same time: what something does and why that might be useful. An analogy: a button labelled "enable confabulator" has an entry in the user manual: "Press to enable the confabulator". Unless you know what the confabulator is, or what you might want one to do, it's meaningless. A simultaneous equation. That's where a newbie to electronics finds themselves.
The mechanical kit fills in one half of that. You might not know why you want that capacitor analog, but you can see how it works and what it is. Knowing what it is and how it does whatever that is, the kit here shows you why you might use it. Sure, it's complicated to look at (and maybe put together), but it's easily followed mentally since there is only one side of the equation to fill in. Once you've got the hang of it, you have both sides: what and why.
Now you can move onto something else. You know the why, you just have to fill in the what, and that's surely much easier than not having a clue about either.
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But what if you did it the other way: tell a plumber that a resistor is just like a narrow pipe. There is less chance of the analogy breaking down in that direction because he doesn't know enough about the resistor to realise where it falls over (he knows plenty about pipes, but that's not what he's trying to understand). Dig deep enough so the analogy does break down, and by then he should know enough for electronics to be standalone.
Isn't that how analogies are typically used? Use models which are familiar to your audience, to introduce them to concepts which are unfamiliar and maybe abstract?
No, I think it's arse about face, although it looks similar. On the one hand you start with a big system you don't understand and get told a small part of it is just like this small part that you do know about. On the other, you start with a big system you do understand and get told the small part you don't understand is just like this small part of the big system you do understand. There's a big difference in the size of what you're trying to learn about.
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I don't like that it uses the name "Spintronics," because spintronics is already an established topic in physics.
https://www.spintronics-info.com (https://www.spintronics-info.com)
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I don't like that it uses the name "Spintronics," because spintronics is already an established topic in physics.
That's mainly their own problem, when customers Google the product name and get confronted with actual science instead...
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When explaining electronics to car people I say that a resistor is like a carburettor jet. A selectable and calibrated size hole that lets fuel through proportionally to the pressure drop across it.
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But that's one of the problems I have with "Spintronics": Just looking at them as a mechanical system, the designs seem a bit strange. Gear ratios, gear & chain/belt, slip clutches etc. are all fine -- but why would you build something like this? I would not even get as far as translating it into electronics, because the mechanical design seems absurd in the first place. ::)
(https://upperstory.com/spintronics/science/assets/complicated-science-circuit.jpg)
Yeah, it's messy. I'm not getting "the vibe"
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Whether or not it's good for teaching, I bloody well want one! It would make an excellent executive toy to hang on the wall pretending to be a 555 flashing an LED.
Hmmm. Might have to make a sound-proof clear box for it. Could be an opportunity for a side business there.
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Good luck building something as complex as a 555! On the order of 20 ea. transistors and resistors, if I am not mistaken. Be sure to reserve a large-enough wall for it, and order enough Spintronics expansion sets right away...
If you do ever pull this off, please post a picture! 8)
Edit: If I want a 555 toy to look at, this one is enough for me...
https://shop.evilmadscientist.com/productsmenu/652
(https://cdn.evilmadscientist.com/catalog/emskits/555/kitv2/desc/imgmed/2.jpg)
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Not sure how useful that would be to learn electronics, but it certainly looks fun to play around with.
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Steve Mould has done a video which shows how Spintronics works and what it's capable of. Much better appreciation of it than just looking at the bits and wondering how you'd make stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrkiJZKJfpY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrkiJZKJfpY)
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Steve Mould has done a video which shows how Spintronics works and what it's capable of. Much better appreciation of it than just looking at the bits and wondering how you'd make stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrkiJZKJfpY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrkiJZKJfpY)
He sure has: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/(yt)-mechanical-circuits-electronics-without-electricity/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/(yt)-mechanical-circuits-electronics-without-electricity/)
I hadn’t realised Dave had posted this topic. Fabulous teaching aid.
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Fruit Flys like a banana; Time Flies like an arrow
-- Groucho Marx
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Fruit Flys like a banana; Time Flies like an arrow
-- Groucho Marx
What's the relevance? 🙁
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I'd like to believe, ideally, that we humans ALWAYS have an abstract form:
"What if we could make something that will ADD two numbers together ?".
Notice that functional statement didn't really get into mentioning 'electronics', slide rules etc.
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There may be a target demographic for it, but it has long been a pet peeve of mine starting (especially young people) on gimmicky analogues rather than just on the actual topic. This isn't just a problem in electronics, but also in computer programming, music education etc....
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Ebastler: You asked 'What is it good for?'...
Answer is, unfortunately, somewhat flippant:
"...The thing is good for... Making an ANALOGY..." They will declare, (with a straight face).
...I was working in the 'educational products' industry, for some number of years..."What did we make ? " you ask ?
I just told you; "We make educational products."
That's a whole, separate world, in itself. No one, absolutely NO ONE, not one educator EVER showed even the slightest interest, in going beyond the rhetoric,
beyond, maybe, saying "I heard, that COMPUTERS are going to be a big thing...".
Statements like that. Course, don't lose faith, I just got an 'unlucky stretch', of cynics feedback.
'Educational' has become a buzzword, for me, as around 10 years ago, that topic became overused, in presidential debates, even!