Author Topic: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!  (Read 7807 times)

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Offline x_marxTopic starter

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Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« on: September 03, 2022, 04:44:40 pm »
I have been working as a Design Engineer for a machine manufacturer for like 10 years. I do CAD stuff (I'm a Mechanical Engineer btw) and plant design (mainly machine capacity calculations, layouts and process logic). But, I have always loved CompSci and electronics.
Love tinkering with stuff with my fav being audio DACs. I'm also into LEDs and lighting.
So, I joined an MSc course in Computer Science and learned a lot of C# and zero hardware stuff which I'm not a big fan of. It's too modern for me lol :D
I would rather have C :P and a lot more hardware stuff.

So, for a 'fresher' like me, is it a good idea to go for C+embedded at this stage?

Regards

Max

 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2022, 04:49:17 pm »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.
 
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Offline SiliconWizard

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2022, 08:32:59 pm »
If you're more into low-level and hardware stuff, EE is probably the way to go here.

CS will definitely be too software, and *modern* software-oriented. And not just for your courses. Beyond that, once you have a MSc in CS, you'll mostly find jobs were you'll be expected to do C#, Java, maybe some Python, maybe some C++ (maybe), or even uh... worse, web development stuff.

Something that, from your short description, you're probably not going to enjoy.

But we're talking about enjoying what you do here. Pure software would probably be a better option if what you care about is finding good paying jobs easily.
 
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Offline x_marxTopic starter

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2022, 10:35:22 am »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.
In our Mechanical Engg. course, we had to study C basics along with C graphics and mathematical modelling using C (fast Fourier transforms and stuff). I really loved it so much that I got perfect scores in all of them. My examiners were sceptical about how I achieved coz my scores in other subjects were average. It's that experience that I had me believe I can do well in modern languages.

Since this course is about to finish, I'm not sure I can switch. Also, I have a family and my partner is not currently working. Have to support them financially.
So, I was exploring the idea to brush up on my C and try some embedded dev using C. But, my friends say the barrier of entry in embedded stuff is rather high and the pay is relatively low.
I do not mind the pay part but worry about the barrier of entry part and hence my question.


If you're more into low-level and hardware stuff, EE is probably the way to go here.

CS will definitely be too software, and *modern* software-oriented. And not just for your courses. Beyond that, once you have a MSc in CS, you'll mostly find jobs were you'll be expected to do C#, Java, maybe some Python, maybe some C++ (maybe), or even uh... worse, web development stuff.

Something that, from your short description, you're probably not going to enjoy.

But we're talking about enjoying what you do here. Pure software would probably be a better option if what you care about is finding good paying jobs easily.
Yeah, this course is really modern! We study software engineering, android app development, 'serious game' development using Unity, and C#.

As part of the coursework, I had to learn ASP .Net MVC and it was not that bad. I might learn the Razor pages development to become a proper dev in ASP dot Net 6. But yeah, my passion is elsewhere!
Can I study embedded development part-time and be hopeful of landing a job in that field?

What do you guys think?
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2022, 11:03:37 am »
I'm not going to comment on the absolute probability of getting a job, since I'm too long out of the market. To increase the probability, it is useful to demonstrate your command of both theoretical and practical aspect. Both are necessary, neither is sufficient.

The way to do that is to do a "difficult" home project. Don't simply state, but demonstrate:
  • you do more than necessary to get the degree, because you like the subject (and by implication will enjoy working for them). That puts you ahead of most people
  • perseverence and achievement
  • you can choose projects that aren't easy, but which are possible
  • what challenges you set yourself
  • what unexpected problems you had when designing, implementing and testing the project
  • what you got right
  • what you would do differently next time. Looking out for better ways to do things in the future and learning from your experience are valuable attributes
  • your honest assessment of the project, good and bad
Note that the choice of the project is up to you. Being able to select realistic "stretch" goals is an important skill.

You'll also have something to talk to the interviewers about - and sometimes it is good to find anything a candidate can talk about!

Good luck and "have fun, safely".
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline x_marxTopic starter

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2022, 04:07:09 pm »
I'm not going to comment on the absolute probability of getting a job, since I'm too long out of the market. To increase the probability, it is useful to demonstrate your command of both theoretical and practical aspect. Both are necessary, neither is sufficient.

The way to do that is to do a "difficult" home project. Don't simply state, but demonstrate:
  • you do more than necessary to get the degree, because you like the subject (and by implication will enjoy working for them). That puts you ahead of most people
  • perseverence and achievement
  • you can choose projects that aren't easy, but which are possible
  • what challenges you set yourself
  • what unexpected problems you had when designing, implementing and testing the project
  • what you got right
  • what you would do differently next time. Looking out for better ways to do things in the future and learning from your experience are valuable attributes
  • your honest assessment of the project, good and bad
Note that the choice of the project is up to you. Being able to select realistic "stretch" goals is an important skill.

You'll also have something to talk to the interviewers about - and sometimes it is good to find anything a candidate can talk about!

Good luck and "have fun, safely".
The only problem I have is the degree is in Computer Science (software-oriented).
But yeah, I'll get on with a suitable project.

BTW, my main project hasn't started yet. I wanted to do something about improving the image recognition algorithms but it seems like a huge ask for a novice like me.

So, I'm thinking of a more electronics-oriented idea. I have always loved working with LEDs (addressable RGB LEDs). So, I'm thinking about developing windows or raspberry pi software that can detect individual LEDs and configure them to display the image or a video that you have in hand. So, you can put multiple led strips into a sort of like in a billboard and the software, with the help of a camera, configures and display the image you have on the 'screen'.

Is it a good start?
 

Online RJSV

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2022, 08:23:35 pm »
That 'configure and Play' software sounds interesting, and likely complex.
   In 'old days', before COVID lock-down mania, you would find a CONFERENCE, like for game developers etc. which is collosal expensive party-time, (after hours).  But you could nurse your drink (tonic water) while schmoozing with folks who, to meet people, will host a reception upstairs, in hotel suite.  You might see a sign saying something like:
   Apple Developers:. We are currently looking for graphics experts in several locations.
Come to our hotel suite #210 A, for coffee and donuts, 7 am every day, during Conference, we can talk.

   That sort of informal hook-ups, that occur at conferences, help to get some good genuine background info, plus folks may help with any nagging professional issues (that most everyday folks don't appreciate).
   
   A fellow here in town, (M.E.) did similar 'plant' work, in San Francisco city high-rise buildings, with their heating and cooling 'plants', some tantamount to complete 'city', in the one building.

   I do Inventions (attempted,...lol), which, as originally an EE, interested in writing firmware, I already used to broadened fields, doing embedded code.
But, I've also done physics related areospace and microwave 'specialties',   It's a learned tolerance.
   As an Inventor, Business involved Tech developer,  I've also (had to) navigate things like Office space Landlord / real estate managers.  Local police and crime situations sometimes needed attention (unsafe parking lot).
   It's been a deliberate process, for sure, to tolerate all these skill sets, outside of basic engineering.
But something like a good Conference, if you have the resources / airplane ticket could help with both professional, and casual boost, to your career.

Any eevblog user can always send PM with questions about Software / Hardware. Thanks
 
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2022, 09:55:01 pm »
The only problem I have is the degree is in Computer Science (software-oriented).
But yeah, I'll get on with a suitable project.

Shrug. I like to have fun with people that think there is an obvious difference between hardware and software. It is easy to provide counterexamples to their statements, and show them it is a very grey area.

I strongly recommend you learn about Finite State Machines (FSMs), and not in the context of compiler front ends. They are a good way of thinking about realtime systems, both in terms of specification and implementation. Learn how to implement them in hardware and in software. That leads to an understanding of how to choose to implement an FSM; frequently part is implemented in hardware and part in software.

Such system partitioning is an essential skill, whether working with low-level analogue signals or telecommunications billing systems.

Quote
BTW, my main project hasn't started yet. I wanted to do something about improving the image recognition algorithms but it seems like a huge ask for a novice like me.

Sounds like you are already deciding what isn't practical within the constraints. Excellent. Write that kind of thing down as part of the documentation and discuss it with interviewers.

One of my heroes was Professor Eric Laithwaite at Imperial College. He used to set exams where one question was easy and sufficient get you a pass mark, several were more challenging and could get you a good degree, and one could not be answered adequately in the time available. He expected his undergraduate engineers to be able to determine which questions to avoid. If they couldn't, they wouldn't make good engineers anyway.

Quote
So, I'm thinking of a more electronics-oriented idea. I have always loved working with LEDs (addressable RGB LEDs). So, I'm thinking about developing windows or raspberry pi software that can detect individual LEDs and configure them to display the image or a video that you have in hand. So, you can put multiple led strips into a sort of like in a billboard and the software, with the help of a camera, configures and display the image you have on the 'screen'.

Is it a good start?

I don't know; that's your decision :) Doesn't seem like a wrong start :)

You're going to have to determine "low level" timing constraints (e.g. setup and hold times when shoving data into LEDs), and "high level" timing constraints ( e.g. meeting frame rates). You will need to be able to explain how your design guarantees all timing constraints without testing and hoping you've spotted the worst case.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2022, 10:03:07 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2022, 03:23:38 pm »
BTW, my main project hasn't started yet. I wanted to do something about improving the image recognition algorithms but it seems like a huge ask for a novice like me.

These days, image recognition seems to revolve around Convolutional Neural Networks - software plus other skills.  The program costs a bit but I really recommend DeepLizard.com.  I finished the Dictionary course yesterday and it answered a LOT of questions.  PyImageSearch.com is another even more expensive program but it's got excellent material.

If you're not using Linux, you soon will be...

I believe the future is going to revolve around big data and AI - particularly Deep Neural Networks and CNNs.  If I wanted a project to show off, I would do something with the Jetbot and some kind of image based path finding around the kitchen or house (if the wheels will negotiate the carpet).  There is already a demo project that does all this but I'm sure there is room for improvement.  The idea is to create the network on a PC and somehow port it to the Jetbot.  You could probably develop the model on Google Colab which might speed up training.

https://www.amazon.com/Accessories-Wireless-Bluetooth-Recognition-XYGStudy/dp/B07WMZ3KLY

I believe you need to source a 4GB Jetson Nano separately and the price seems to be outrageous at the moment.  Even at the Nvidia store, it is marked "Get Quote".  I didn't pay anything like the current prices for mine.


There's a bit of linear algebra involved (usually handled by the library) and the preferred language is Python and there are libraries for everything.  You can also use the Nvidia SDK and write the project in C++ or Fortran.  In any event, it is helpful if your PC has an Nvidia graphics card with a bunch of CUDA units.  Not required, but helpful.

You could also do the project in MATLAB. 

The Holy Grail is a self-driving car that doesn't crash into Police cars.

You get CS experience in image recognition, AI experience in Convolutional Neural Networks (and image recognition) and embedded experience in making the Jetbot respond to whatever the AI is doing.

Not an inexpensive project.

Maybe a Raspberry Pi will be enough as long as the CNN is already built and just ported over.  Or maybe that is overkill.  The nice thing is that you could possibly do the entire project on the Pi.  It makes a fairly decent workstation.  Plan on taking a LOT of photos of proper and improper paths, possibly while driving it around with a wireless PS4 game controller.

Maybe the AI runs on a laptop connected via ethernet to the 'bot.  Berkeley Sockets comes to mind...

Search around, there are a bunch of similar projects.


« Last Edit: September 06, 2022, 03:35:08 pm by rstofer »
 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2022, 03:41:09 pm »
Shrug. I like to have fun with people that think there is an obvious difference between hardware and software. It is easy to provide counterexamples to their statements, and show them it is a very grey area.

That depends on the hardware, doesn't it?  True, much of what was previously done in pure hardware is now done at least partly in digital (analog radio receiver now done with SDR, etc.) but there are still plenty of areas where true analog design is required.  I see plenty of obvious differences.
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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2022, 08:59:27 pm »
Shrug. I like to have fun with people that think there is an obvious difference between hardware and software. It is easy to provide counterexamples to their statements, and show them it is a very grey area.

That depends on the hardware, doesn't it? 

To push the point, only at extremes.

Quote
True, much of what was previously done in pure hardware is now done at least partly in digital (analog radio receiver now done with SDR, etc.) but there are still plenty of areas where true analog design is required.  I see plenty of obvious differences.

Philosophically...
Photon counting and fA circuits are digital :)
Is a modern x86 class chip hardware or software? (Answers on the back of an envelope in a laboratory notebook please) Ditto an FPGA. Or a 22V10 PLD class device?

Practically...
As you noted above, in many projects a given piece of functionality could be implemented using a variety of radically different techniques. Being able to choose a good combination of technologies is a key skill, which a "pure hardware" or "pure software" person is unlikely to have. That can lead to X deciding Y will have the responsibility for cleaning up the messy edges that it is difficult for X to do cleanly. One example of that is the HP/Intel Itanic processor :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2022, 10:11:10 pm »
I did a little hardware design contract many years ago.  All I had to do was get the hardware working and demonstrate it.  There was another contractor responsible for the application code.

Well, that didn't work out!  I wound up having to provide device drivers and sample code for the programmer to build against.  I doubt that my experience is unique.  If you plan to do embedded, you better have your feet on both sides of the river.  You will be writing a lot of code.   If you're a coder, you will still be expected to understand the User Manual.

 
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2022, 11:00:21 pm »
Hardware != Software, but there is a huge overlap.

You guys are talking about embedded designs and coding, and yes that's a big part of it.  But it's not the only part.  When I was running the engineering department at our startup we had people designing power systems, thermal management, ESD and EMI mitigation, designing processor cards, FPGAs, ASICs, Stratum-2 clock synchronizers, 1.544 and 44.7 MHz electrical interfaces, optical interfaces from 155 MHz to 10 GHz, Gig E, etc.  Some of this was analog, a lot of this was digital, some firmware, and then there was software.  Some of the FPGA and ASIC designs had internal state machines, but if so those were a tiny portion of the design. 

Everything is not a computer!

But if the OP is considering going into image processing, that's going to be almost exclusively software -- the optical / electrical portion is almost trivial in comparison.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2022, 11:48:20 pm »
Hardware != Software, but there is a huge overlap.

Some Dunning-Krueger candidates believe there is a fundamental difference, and that they can distinguish between them. |O

Such people don't know what is inside a modern x86 processor or an FPGA, amongst many things.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2022, 12:07:48 am »
Hardware != Software, but there is a huge overlap.

Some Dunning-Krueger candidates believe there is a fundamental difference, and that they can distinguish between them. |O

Such people don't know what is inside a modern x86 processor or an FPGA, amongst many things.

Oh, please do carry on!  I'll just watch from the cheap seats.
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Offline aeberbach

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2022, 01:04:43 am »
I have a CS degree and I'm currently studying B.Eng. Happy to share experiences.

If you want to program just start programming because that is really the only way to learn. Read, get peer code reviews, improve as you go. Seems like you want to work at a low level. Raspberry Pi is maybe less useful since every hobbyist can fire up the friendly IDE and write C code (or increasingly, Python). Maybe get into Raspberry Pi Pico, where you program in a much more traditional C environment?
Software guy studying B.Eng.
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2022, 01:11:28 am »
I have a CS degree and I'm currently studying B.Eng. Happy to share experiences.

If you want to program just start programming because that is really the only way to learn. Read, get peer code reviews, improve as you go. Seems like you want to work at a low level. Raspberry Pi is maybe less useful since every hobbyist can fire up the friendly IDE and write C code (or increasingly, Python). Maybe get into Raspberry Pi Pico, where you program in a much more traditional C environment?
Yes. My youngest son just started for a bachelor's degree and the first thing, on the first 'school' day they work on is programming a Raspberry Pi.

BTW: Much to my amazement and surprise it looks like they won't get any math classes any time soon or maybe none at all.  :wtf:
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 01:13:27 am by nctnico »
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2022, 04:31:12 am »
Maybe get into Raspberry Pi Pico, where you program in a much more traditional C environment?

Or MicroPython which seems to work really well on the Pico.  I don't have a lot of time with it but from my experiments, it seems workable.  That Pico is dirt cheap!  $7 from Amazon but I thought I bought some for $6

https://www.amazon.com/Raspberry-Pi-Pico-RP2040-microcontroller/dp/B092S2KCV2

Having WiFi built in is really handy!


 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2022, 06:07:19 am »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.

Yep, basically this.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2022, 08:17:11 am »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.

Yep, basically this.

Except when it isn't.

Even 45 years ago my EE degree had a healthy dose of software, both terms of writing applications for minicomputers, and also for the newfangled 6800 processors. My project was to build a 6800  peripherals for a 6800 based computer, and write the code to act as a terminal concentrator for minicomputer.

Some friends and I returned to visit an open day on the 40th anniversary of our graduation. The courses had just the same delightful mix of hardware and software. The test benches had irrititatingly good Tek scopes, spectrum analysers, etc, and many of the student projects involved robotics.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2022, 01:21:10 pm »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.

Yep, basically this.

Except when it isn't.

Of course. As a general rule though it's true.
It always comes down to the individual course, any strand options chosen, and the school in general.
One schools EE degree may be completely different to another schools, even though they are both accedited the same Washington Accord level internationally.
University of Western Sydney for example have (or had) basically the same frist two years for EE/Civil/Mechanical degrees "just in case" you wanted to change your mind  ::)
AFAIK no other Sydney based university EE course makes you take civil engineering classes "just in case".
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 01:25:40 pm by EEVblog »
 

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2022, 02:29:33 pm »
CS (Computer Science) is about software.
EE (Electrical Engineering) is about hardware.

If you want to do programming, then continue with CS, otherwise for electronics and hardware you may want to switch to EE MSc.

Yep, basically this.

Except when it isn't.

Of course. As a general rule though it's true.
It always comes down to the individual course, any strand options chosen, and the school in general.
One schools EE degree may be completely different to another schools, even though they are both accedited the same Washington Accord level internationally.
University of Western Sydney for example have (or had) basically the same frist two years for EE/Civil/Mechanical degrees "just in case" you wanted to change your mind  ::)
AFAIK no other Sydney based university EE course makes you take civil engineering classes "just in case".

I gather I was unusual in that I knew what I wanted to get from a university course, and discovered enough to select the right course at the right university. It seems most people aren't like that.

The issue of breadth-vs-depth is an interesting one, with no right/wrong answers. I chose to avoid courses that made you choose, e.g., telecoms engineering vs something else before entering. I thought - and still think - that was ridiculously narrow for an education that should set you up for the next 40 years.

OTOH, I knew I was interested in electronics and computing, so I wasn't interested in anything much more general than that.

On the third hand, I have a relative that is in the final year of a systems engineering course. While I don't know the details, that doesn't seem stupid.

Nowadays I'd choose the life sciences, for the same reason I chose electronics and computing: the fields are at the same stage for both professionals and hackers.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2022, 04:07:05 pm »
Hardware != Software, but there is a huge overlap.

Some Dunning-Krueger candidates believe there is a fundamental difference, and that they can distinguish between them. |O

Such people don't know what is inside a modern x86 processor or an FPGA, amongst many things.

I was going to walk away from this stupidity, but I just can't seem to let it drop.  You claim that there is no "fundamental difference" between hardware and software.  How far down are you going in order to make this claim?  Yes, they are both called "engineering" and both require some common skills, but they diverge rapidly above that level.  Are you talking about the activities, or the education?

As for the activity, here are a few design examples from my career, roughly ordered from all hardware to all software (not in time sequence):
  • Hearing aid design (audio amplifier, filter, compressor), all analog circuitry
  • "Wireless microphone" style radio transmitters and receivers
  • EMI design and mitigation
  • Switching power system noise analysis and cure in a timeslotted multiplexer
  • Acoustic test equipment (some analog, some digital, no software)
  • DS1 and DS3 framing, synchronization and switching ASICs (are you calling Verilog "software"?)
  • 6800 processor board hardware
  • Bootcode (68HC11) for system linecards
  • Analysis of digital clock generation methods and time/spectral performance
Sure, some of those things could be done better digitally now, using software, but that's not an argument that there is no difference. 
And I agree that a useful engineer should probably get experience in hardware and software, and avoid early specialization (I managed to avoid it my entire career).
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2022, 05:27:11 pm »
Hardware != Software, but there is a huge overlap.

Some Dunning-Krueger candidates believe there is a fundamental difference, and that they can distinguish between them. |O

Such people don't know what is inside a modern x86 processor or an FPGA, amongst many things.

I was going to walk away from this stupidity, but I just can't seem to let it drop.  You claim that there is no "fundamental difference" between hardware and software.  How far down are you going in order to make this claim?  Yes, they are both called "engineering" and both require some common skills, but they diverge rapidly above that level.  Are you talking about the activities, or the education?

As for the activity, here are a few design examples from my career, roughly ordered from all hardware to all software (not in time sequence):
  • Hearing aid design (audio amplifier, filter, compressor), all analog circuitry
  • "Wireless microphone" style radio transmitters and receivers
  • EMI design and mitigation
  • Switching power system noise analysis and cure in a timeslotted multiplexer
  • Acoustic test equipment (some analog, some digital, no software)
  • DS1 and DS3 framing, synchronization and switching ASICs (are you calling Verilog "software"?)
  • 6800 processor board hardware
  • Bootcode (68HC11) for system linecards
  • Analysis of digital clock generation methods and time/spectral performance
Sure, some of those things could be done better digitally now, using software, but that's not an argument that there is no difference. 
And I agree that a useful engineer should probably get experience in hardware and software, and avoid early specialization (I managed to avoid it my entire career).

Overall all you have done is mentioned a few spot examples; you have failed to supply a test that can be used to distinguish between hardware and software. Without such a test the differences are small

Apart from that, you have made many wrong and strange statements...

I've never thought of an electromagnetic field as "hardware"; it is physics! Even then, software is used to mitigate radio EMC problems and some EMI problems.

As someone that wears a hearing aid and expects to be eligible for a cochlear implant in one ear, I a, familiar how much you don't know about hearing aids. My first hearing aids had very limited "programmability"; my current has stunning capabilities partially implemented in "software". Cochlear implant controllers are even more sophisticated.

Is a neural net with all its internal weighting factors hardware or software? Consider Igor Aleksander's WISARD and Tesla's car controllers - especially the "prototype <cough> full self-driving" system.

I'm not familiar with the details of verilog, but VHDL certainly is software by most people's definitions. As wackypedia puts it "The VHSIC Hardware Description Language (VHDL) is a hardware description language (HDL) that can model the behavior and structure of digital systems at multiple levels of abstraction, ranging from the system level down to that of logic gates, for design entry, documentation, and verification purposes. ... The key advantage of VHDL, when used for systems design, is that it allows the behavior of the required system to be described (modeled) and verified (simulated) before synthesis tools translate the design into real hardware (gates and wires). ... VHDL is a dataflow language". To aid that, VHDL has many attributes not associated with hardware, e.g. constructs to create/read/write files in an operating system.

As for 6800s, why not consder the contemporary AMD2900 family where microcode is a key implementation concept. Is the microcode hardware or software?

For a more modern example, consider Intel x86 processors from the P6 onwards. How do you think Intel changes the operation of its processors in installed systems? Is Intel Microcode hardware or software? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Microcode

If you think x86 processors are hardware, how do they, when powered down, detect and respond to "wake on LAN" packets to apply power to themselves to start operating again.

Analysis of clocks and time/spectral performance is no more hardware than systems modelling.
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Online nctnico

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2022, 05:35:21 pm »
Moving goalposts again...

In the end you can apply 'engineering skills' (=define the problem, split in sub-problems and find solutions to each sub-problem) to every problem out there. But that doesn't mean a good hardware engineer is a good software engineer or a good chemical engineer by definition. Or your goal is to be a jack of all trades, master at none.

The reality is that there are many fields you can specialise in but acquiring the necessary knowledge takes time to learn and time is limited for everyone. So you have to pick your areas of expertise carefully. In the end you can't know everything up to an expert level.

During the past decade I have been involved in various projects dealing with time & frequency transfer. I've had the pleasure to work with various people that have devoted their careers (or may I say: lifes) to this subject. They are pioneers in their field and extremely knowledgeable. But they know sh*t about software engineering.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 05:39:13 pm by nctnico »
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