Author Topic: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!  (Read 7802 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2022, 07:35:11 pm »
Moving goalposts again...

In the end you can apply 'engineering skills' (=define the problem, split in sub-problems and find solutions to each sub-problem) to every problem out there. But that doesn't mean a good hardware engineer is a good software engineer or a good chemical engineer by definition. Or your goal is to be a jack of all trades, master at none.

Sometimes it is useful to explicitly move the goalposts :)

There is a career decision that most people have to make: whether to be a jack of all trades and master of none, or whether to be the master of a niche. Either choice is valid, each has obvious benefits and risks.

My decision was to be more towards the jack of all trades, but with some deep knowledge in a few areas. That way there's more opportunity to have fun and act as a cross-pollinator, and less chance of being frozen out because your niche has evaporated.

Quote
The reality is that there are many fields you can specialise in but acquiring the necessary knowledge takes time to learn and time is limited for everyone. So you have to pick your areas of expertise carefully. In the end you can't know everything up to an expert level.

A key decision is what not to invest time in learning. In software I've managed to avoid a lot of me-too technologies (e.g. Delphi, C#, any web framework) and be an early adopter of useful technologies (assembler, C, Smalltalk, Objective-C, Java).

Making those choices was possible because I had passing knowledge of many topics, e.g. functional programming, various "AI" languages, etc.

Quote
During the past decade I have been involved in various projects dealing with time & frequency transfer. I've had the pleasure to work with various people that have devoted their careers (or may I say: lifes) to this subject. They are pioneers in their field and extremely knowledgeable. But they know sh*t about software engineering.

I know exactly what you mean!

In order to make products it is necessary to have a team. The team members should have different personalities and capabilities and weaknesses, so that each person's weaknesses are covered by another person's strengths.
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Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2022, 05:00:27 am »

I was going to walk away from this stupidity, but I just can't seem to let it drop.  You claim that there is no "fundamental difference" between hardware and software.  How far down are you going in order to make this claim?  Yes, they are both called "engineering" and both require some common skills, but they diverge rapidly above that level.  Are you talking about the activities, or the education?

As for the activity, here are a few design examples from my career, roughly ordered from all hardware to all software (not in time sequence):
  • Hearing aid design (audio amplifier, filter, compressor), all analog circuitry
  • "Wireless microphone" style radio transmitters and receivers
  • EMI design and mitigation
  • Switching power system noise analysis and cure in a timeslotted multiplexer
  • Acoustic test equipment (some analog, some digital, no software)
  • DS1 and DS3 framing, synchronization and switching ASICs (are you calling Verilog "software"?)
  • 6800 processor board hardware
  • Bootcode (68HC11) for system linecards
  • Analysis of digital clock generation methods and time/spectral performance
Sure, some of those things could be done better digitally now, using software, but that's not an argument that there is no difference. 
And I agree that a useful engineer should probably get experience in hardware and software, and avoid early specialization (I managed to avoid it my entire career).
Overall all you have done is mentioned a few spot examples; you have failed to supply a test that can be used to distinguish between hardware and software. Without such a test the differences are small


I am sad that you don't seem to grasp the essence of our disagreement.  "Failed to supply a test"??  Who says I need to?  I gave you examples and if you can't admit that some are examples of hardware design, some of software design, and some a mix, then I have to assume that you are deliberately arguing in bad faith (I won't suggest DK, even though you did.)

Apart from that, you have made many wrong and strange statements...

I've never thought of an electromagnetic field as "hardware"; it is physics! Even then, software is used to mitigate radio EMC problems and some EMI problems.

The EM field isn't hardware, but the circuitry that generates and receives them is.  And so what if software can be used in the analysis?  It may be useful, but it isn't fundamental.  If your criterion is: "If software can be used in the process then it's a software design." I'm afraid that we can probably stop here.  But I continue...

As someone that wears a hearing aid and expects to be eligible for a cochlear implant in one ear, I a, familiar how much you don't know about hearing aids. My first hearing aids had very limited "programmability"; my current has stunning capabilities partially implemented in "software". Cochlear implant controllers are even more sophisticated.

You have no idea about how much I know about hearing aids.  Bear in mind that my work on them was back in the 1980's, but even then we were working with cochlear implant researchers.  And again, so what if modern hearing aids now use software?  Before I quit that job we were starting to look at DSP signal processing in HAs (but the tech wasn't quite ready for practical consumer application.)  The fact remains that those designs were fully analog.  No software in that hardware.

Is a neural net with all its internal weighting factors hardware or software? Consider Igor Aleksander's WISARD and Tesla's car controllers - especially the "prototype <cough> full self-driving" system.
Irrelevant.  We can both produce many examples of hardware/software hybrids.  I never claimed otherwise

I'm not familiar with the details of verilog, but VHDL certainly is software by most people's definitions. As wackypedia puts it "The VHSIC Hardware Description Language (VHDL) is a hardware description language (HDL) that can model the behavior and structure of digital systems at multiple levels of abstraction, ranging from the system level down to that of logic gates, for design entry, documentation, and verification purposes. ... The key advantage of VHDL, when used for systems design, is that it allows the behavior of the required system to be described (modeled) and verified (simulated) before synthesis tools translate the design into real hardware (gates and wires). ... VHDL is a dataflow language". To aid that, VHDL has many attributes not associated with hardware, e.g. constructs to create/read/write files in an operating system.

Again. irrelevant.  Some might call Verilog or VHDL software, but the resulting design implementation is hardware.  This hardware may run software, but so what?  Anyway, I put the Verilog example closer to the "software" end of the continuum.

As for 6800s, why not consder the contemporary AMD2900 family where microcode is a key implementation concept. Is the microcode hardware or software?

For a more modern example, consider Intel x86 processors from the P6 onwards. How do you think Intel changes the operation of its processors in installed systems? Is Intel Microcode hardware or software? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Microcode

If you think x86 processors are hardware, how do they, when powered down, detect and respond to "wake on LAN" packets to apply power to themselves to start operating again.

Microcode?  Irrelevant.  It's more firmware than software but I don't care what you call it.  By the way, I did the 6800 design in 1976.   Why is a contemporary design significant to your argument?  And why do you keep bring up microprocessors?  It's a fact that micro design is a combination of hardware and software (sort of), and that has never been in dispute.

"Wake on LAN"??  So that section isn't actually powered down.  Do you even understand what is going on?  And of course they're hardware, running some sort of program.  Do you think that software runs on unpowered nothingness?


Analysis of clocks and time/spectral performance is no more hardware than systems modelling.

That was kind of my point, and it should have been obvious (remember, I said "ordered list, from hardware to software"?)  The resulting designs went into ASICs, implemented as registers and gates, no software involved.  And software (some I wrote, others I bought and used) was used to analyze and develop the designs. 

Analysis is part of the design process, and sometimes it involves software.  Other times it's pencil and paper, and perhaps a calculator.  But the resulting design is often hardware, not software.

If you are merely saying that engineers often use software in the design process then just say that and I will agree.  But that's not what you are saying and apparently not what you believe.

The more I think about it I fear that you have in bad faith lured me into a stupid argument.  Unless you can bring forth a semi-cogent response I'm going to let it drop for now.

[edit: fixed one missing quote tag]
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 02:56:40 pm by fourfathom »
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2022, 07:10:58 am »
I gather I was unusual in that I knew what I wanted to get from a university course, and discovered enough to select the right course at the right university. It seems most people aren't like that.

I don't know what's it like in the UK, but Australia is VERY different to say the US system.
Generally speaking, the majority of kids who go to university in Australia:
1) Pick one that is in their city.
2) Live at home with their parents. The US "dorm" system isn't a thing here, it really only for overseas students who stay on campus. Hence university choice might be based on ease of access to their parents home.
3) Hardly ever think about picking the "best" university or course from around the country. Hardly anyone ever leaves their city let alone state to study.

And given our much smaller population and hence far fewer universities to pick from, "you get what you get and you don't get upset".

Has changed a bit now with the whole online thing.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2022, 09:18:23 am »
I gather I was unusual in that I knew what I wanted to get from a university course, and discovered enough to select the right course at the right university. It seems most people aren't like that.

I don't know what's it like in the UK, but Australia is VERY different to say the US system.
Generally speaking, the majority of kids who go to university in Australia:
1) Pick one that is in their city.
2) Live at home with their parents. The US "dorm" system isn't a thing here, it really only for overseas students who stay on campus. Hence university choice might be based on ease of access to their parents home.
3) Hardly ever think about picking the "best" university or course from around the country. Hardly anyone ever leaves their city let alone state to study.

And given our much smaller population and hence far fewer universities to pick from, "you get what you get and you don't get upset".

Has changed a bit now with the whole online thing.

In the UK, as far as I can make out, there is little tendency to stay at home.
  • the distances are (of course) much smaller, so even if in a "different part" of the country it is still practical to go home for the weekend
  • usualliy the first year is in a university dorm, other years are in digs with a landlady, or more usually in a shared house pit with other students
  • whether or not students do pick good courses/unis is open to question. My daughter used to go around doing university outreach, and a depressing number of kids/parents thought that since all A-levels are (nominally) equivalent, so all universities and courses are equivalent

Certainly my daughter regarded going to uni as being an excellent way of getting away from the "parental units". Mind you, she was unusual. I'd taken her backpacking in India in her early teens, so I wasn't completely surprised when (between school and uni) she told me "dad, I've bought a ticket for 6 months in Australia" - and self-financed 6 months up the east coast and down through Alice Springs to Melbourne. Great kid, and we still see each other very often.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2022, 09:48:03 am »
... something impenetrable due to fouled up use of quotes ....

It appears that you have one very clear idea of what software is and isn't, but aren't prepared to indicate what that might be other than by a few poorly chosen spot examples.

When presented with an "awkward example" you also introduce another term, firmware. You then use it in a way that not only contradicts your other statements, but also doesn't fit with the commonly understood meaning of the term, viz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware That indicates you don't understand what microcode is, despite having been given one reference. Here's another even clearer reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_code#Relationship_to_microcode

Hearing aids have evolved very considerably in the 35 years since you were involved in research into cochlear implants. Their capabilities are astounding.

You stated "Some might call Verilog or VHDL software, but the resulting design implementation is hardware." So, do you regard VHDL/Verilog code as hardware or software? How is that fundamentally different to C running in hardware?

Do you realise that modern x86 processors all run Minix internally? Or that they way they implement x86 machine instructions is changed after installation, especially when bugs are found? So, is an x86 chip hardware or software?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 12:06:25 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Offline armandine2

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2022, 11:07:40 am »
I'm finding lots of good things in this thread to enjoy - Dunning-Kruger included.

I'm blaming the software-hardware simplification as a language problem - all sorts of false dichotomies ensue.

I imagine (in the UK) that the ratio going to a local university or studying farther a field is stable, not high, possibly increasing.

I agree, if it has been suggested, the UK university student may not be a wise purchaser of their instruction - and the UK university consists of departmental silos that struggle to offer multidisciplinary interdisciplinary options.

My limited experience includes two bachelor degrees (1992, 2017) - the second as a home student.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 11:16:53 am by armandine2 »
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2022, 11:25:32 am »
I'm finding lots of good things in this thread to enjoy - Dunning-Kruger included.

I'm blaming the software-hardware simplification as a language problem - all sorts of false dichotomies ensue.

False dichotomies do indeed ensue :)

But is it "merely" a language problem, or is it caused/perpetuated by a lack of breadth and/or only having shallow understanding?

Does the language cause the problem or reflect the problem?

IMHO the starting point is the silo mentality, which is compounded by lack of breadth. The silo mentality itself has several causes.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online coppice

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2022, 11:32:15 am »
In the UK, as far as I can make out, there is little tendency to stay at home.
Pretty much, with one big exception - London. There are a lot of people going to places like Imperial and UCL who live at home. Even if you don't live at home, you are probably commuting a considerable distance to college each day at those places. They have very little student accommodation of their own, and anything nearby is fearfully expensive.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2022, 11:48:42 am »
Quote
If you think x86 processors are hardware, how do they, when powered down, detect and respond to "wake on LAN" packets to apply power to themselves to start operating again.

Well, they obviously aren't powered down - they are in a low-power state, presumably with the main processing stuff turned off. But, not knowing the internals of an x86 I am intrigued. How do they do it?

AFAIK there are a couple of ways:

1. They don't - the RTL whatever chip causes an interrupt which wakes  the CPU (or perhaps just dabs the 'wake up' soft button).

2. Some hardware bitstream monitor, no software involved (except for configuring).

3. The (not too secret now) separate onboard management processor does it all.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2022, 12:01:16 pm »
In the UK, as far as I can make out, there is little tendency to stay at home.
Pretty much, with one big exception - London. There are a lot of people going to places like Imperial and UCL who live at home. Even if you don't live at home, you are probably commuting a considerable distance to college each day at those places. They have very little student accommodation of their own, and anything nearby is fearfully expensive.

I lived on the very edge of London (there were iron tax posts in common land indicating that!). I didn't even look at the very good courses in IC or UCL because it would have been sensible for me to stay at home.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2022, 12:04:19 pm »
Quote
If you think x86 processors are hardware, how do they, when powered down, detect and respond to "wake on LAN" packets to apply power to themselves to start operating again.

Well, they obviously aren't powered down - they are in a low-power state, presumably with the main processing stuff turned off. But, not knowing the internals of an x86 I am intrigued. How do they do it?

AFAIK there are a couple of ways:

1. They don't - the RTL whatever chip causes an interrupt which wakes  the CPU (or perhaps just dabs the 'wake up' soft button).

2. Some hardware bitstream monitor, no software involved (except for configuring).

3. The (not too secret now) separate onboard management processor does it all.

I presume, without having bothered to verify it, that the "secret" processor running Minix does it. Either way, it is sufficient to blow the simplisitic "it is obvious that x86 chips are hardware" concept out of the water. (That plus the behaviour modified after installation, for fixing "inappropriate behaviour")

It is all shades of grey, with no clear distinction between hardware and software :)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 12:09:24 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online coppice

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2022, 12:12:24 pm »
In the UK, as far as I can make out, there is little tendency to stay at home.
Pretty much, with one big exception - London. There are a lot of people going to places like Imperial and UCL who live at home. Even if you don't live at home, you are probably commuting a considerable distance to college each day at those places. They have very little student accommodation of their own, and anything nearby is fearfully expensive.

I lived on the very edge of London (there were iron tax posts in common land indicating that!). I didn't even look at the very good courses in IC or UCL because it would have been sensible for me to stay at home.
I went to UCL and about half my friends there lived at home. I have no idea how representative that is, but people I know who went to other universities were pretty much amongst 100% people living away from home. So, even one group being 50% home students seemed like a big contrast. That was in the 70s. Costs have risen faster in London than elsewhere, to I assume the percentage of home students may have risen. I lived in with my parents in Enfield, and commuted about an hour each way.

We now live in a village near York. My son is currently at York Uni, and drives in each day. I don't think he knows anyone else living at home, and he can me sure only a handful of undergrads drive into college. Even though we are only about 8 miles from the uni he was going to live in a hall of residence, because wifey through it might increase his independence. COVID stopped that in his first year, and he has settled into spending the whole 4 years at home.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 12:13:56 pm by coppice »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2022, 12:33:15 pm »
In the UK, as far as I can make out, there is little tendency to stay at home.
Pretty much, with one big exception - London. There are a lot of people going to places like Imperial and UCL who live at home. Even if you don't live at home, you are probably commuting a considerable distance to college each day at those places. They have very little student accommodation of their own, and anything nearby is fearfully expensive.

I lived on the very edge of London (there were iron tax posts in common land indicating that!). I didn't even look at the very good courses in IC or UCL because it would have been sensible for me to stay at home.
I went to UCL and about half my friends there lived at home. I have no idea how representative that is, but people I know who went to other universities were pretty much amongst 100% people living away from home. So, even one group being 50% home students seemed like a big contrast. That was in the 70s. Costs have risen faster in London than elsewhere, to I assume the percentage of home students may have risen. I lived in with my parents in Enfield, and commuted about an hour each way.

We now live in a village near York. My son is currently at York Uni, and drives in each day. I don't think he knows anyone else living at home, and he can me sure only a handful of undergrads drive into college. Even though we are only about 8 miles from the uni he was going to live in a hall of residence, because wifey through it might increase his independence. COVID stopped that in his first year, and he has settled into spending the whole 4 years at home.

I was at uni in the mid 70s. The thought of an hour commuting on the tube was enough to discourage me from applying for a job at the Hirst Research Centre in Wembley!

A relative is living at home while going to Nottingham uni. That decision was nothing to do with covid, but I suspect was more of a delayed action subtle side effect of having a sibling die of leukaemia. Covid meant he took a year off university, which was almost certainly a sensible decision.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online coppice

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2022, 12:46:47 pm »
The thought of an hour commuting on the tube was enough to discourage me from applying for a job at the Hirst Research Centre in Wembley!
That discouraged you, and not the thought of working at Hirst? Weird.  ;)
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2022, 01:21:27 pm »
The thought of an hour commuting on the tube was enough to discourage me from applying for a job at the Hirst Research Centre in Wembley!
That discouraged you, and not the thought of working at Hirst? Weird.  ;)

Nice snark :)

The milk round made me realise why I didn't want to work for GEC. Hirst wasn't the "normal" GEC, but was still very gloomy internally! Not a difficult decision to make.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online coppice

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2022, 01:24:36 pm »
The thought of an hour commuting on the tube was enough to discourage me from applying for a job at the Hirst Research Centre in Wembley!
That discouraged you, and not the thought of working at Hirst? Weird.  ;)

Nice snark :)

The milk round made me realise why I didn't want to work for GEC. Hirst wasn't the "normal" GEC, but was still very gloomy internally! Not a difficult decision to make.
There were several pure research operations around GEC, but none of them were that much different from working in the other GEC operations. They all relied on blood sucking the government, only interested in solid commercially oriented work when there was no alternative.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2022, 01:33:57 pm »
At our local private university, per SEMESTER fees are:


$26,000 Tuition
$ 1,400 Medical Insurance (may be optional if student covered by parents)
$ 7,000 Housing
=========
$34,400 (give or take, probably have to add a few thousand for other expenses and student fees)


Times 10 semesters for a EE => $344,000 !!!

There are stipends that may reduce the number but it is still a staggering number.  Grad school at a more distant location is priced about the same.  Some Master's can be completed in just 3 semesters so call it $100,000.

It is far better to take the first 4 semesters at a community college and of course it is better to live at home, if it's possible.

My education was essentially free.  The Veteran's Administration paid for my undergrad and my employer paid for grad school.  This was a LONG time ago!

 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2022, 03:44:00 pm »
... something impenetrable due to fouled up use of quotes ....

It appears that you have one very clear idea of what software is and isn't, but aren't prepared to indicate what that might be other than by a few poorly chosen spot examples.

When presented with an "awkward example" you also introduce another term, firmware. You then use it in a way that not only contradicts your other statements, but also doesn't fit with the commonly understood meaning of the term, viz https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmware That indicates you don't understand what microcode is, despite having been given one reference. Here's another even clearer reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_code#Relationship_to_microcode

Hearing aids have evolved very considerably in the 35 years since you were involved in research into cochlear implants. Their capabilities are astounding.

You stated "Some might call Verilog or VHDL software, but the resulting design implementation is hardware." So, do you regard VHDL/Verilog code as hardware or software? How is that fundamentally different to C running in hardware?

Do you realise that modern x86 processors all run Minix internally? Or that they way they implement x86 machine instructions is changed after installation, especially when bugs are found? So, is an x86 chip hardware or software?

I had *one* missing quote tag, and just fixed it.  Perhaps you will be capable of penetrating it now?

Why do you keep bringing up processors?  Do you think that processor design is the only remaining field in EE?  Of course they run software, and contain embedded code of some sort.  Many of the chip designers probably wrote the embedded stuff.  You would win this argument if I were claiming otherwise -- but I never have.  A modern engineer should probably know something about software, and many engineering tasks and designs will require it.

Go ahead and quibble about the definitions of microcode, firmware, and software, or the evolution of hearing aid technology.  These are irrelevant to the actual argument, and you dragging red herrings across the discussion only tells me that you (at best) don't understand the argument.

Let's back way up.  You have repeatedly claimed that there is no obvious difference between hardware and software:
I like to have fun with people that think there is an obvious difference between hardware and software.
When I provide some obvious cases, as well as some gray-area ones, you insult, hand-wave, and present irrelevant examples.

So here's another example:  You need a Colpitts oscillator.  So you design one.  One transistor (or two, if you buffer it), an inductor, three or four capacitors, and a few resistors.  This is a hardware circult, probably a part of a larger design, but perhaps not.  There is no software content.  No programming required.  No digital logic.  You don't even need to use a computer in the design process.

My position is that some electronic designs do not involve software.  Nothing more.  *Using* software during the design process does not make the design any  less of a hardware-only design.  Designing a board where there is a component which runs software that someone else has written does not make that board design task a software design.  If you actually write the code, or need to understand the code in order to do the design then you are engaging in software as well as hardware design.

Verilog is a *Hardware* Description Language.  The Verilog simulator/compiler/etc. is software.  The final design is hardware, which may or may not contain microcode or run software.  If the final design consists of just an internal oscillator, a counter and eventually blinks an external LED then this is a hardware design.  The fact that software was involved in the design process is irrelevant.

Back to the OP's  situation:  In Electronics Engineering you are sometimes an independent designer, but usually you are part of a team.  Knowing software is usually a very good thing, and probably required for many jobs.  Starting with a software background and then moving into hardware requires a new set of skills and knowledge, and the details depends a lot on the type of hardware design you wish to do.  I'm speaking of the work and the skills required, not how you get there.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2022, 07:00:39 pm »
Why do you keep bringing up processors?  Do you think that processor design is the only remaining field in EE?  Of course they run software, and contain embedded code of some sort.  Many of the chip designers probably wrote the embedded stuff.  You would win this argument if I were claiming otherwise -- but I never have.  A modern engineer should probably know something about software, and many engineering tasks and designs will require it.

You continue to miss the point. I use the implemention of modern processors to demonstrate that there is no clear distinction between hardware and software.

Quote
Go ahead and quibble about the definitions of microcode, firmware, and software, or the evolution of hearing aid technology.  These are irrelevant to the actual argument, and you dragging red herrings across the discussion only tells me that you (at best) don't understand the argument.

No, the definitions and distinctions are central to the argument. They clearly demonstrate that there is a graded continuum between something that is obviously "pure" hardware such as a colpitts oscillator and something that is obviously pure software such as a telecoms billing system.

That graded continuum means there is no clear distinction between hardware and software.


... strawman arguments omitted ...

Quote
Verilog is a *Hardware* Description Language. 

Your understanding of VHDL (and Verilog and others) is limited. Hardware description is part of VHDL and one thing it is used for. There are other things it is used for, as exemplified by non-synthesisable programs and operating system file manipulation.

VHDL behavioural models are akin to C programs; both are compiled to primitives. Structural models are akin to macro assemblers; they expand the models to primitives.

Quote
The Verilog simulator/compiler/etc. is software.  The final design is hardware, which may or may not contain microcode or run software.  If the final design consists of just an internal oscillator, a counter and eventually blinks an external LED then this is a hardware design. 

Look deeper. The final designs are all analogue voltages, electron flow and electromagnetic fields, to which we assign some meaning. With the exception of photon counting amd femto-amp circuits, all circuits are analogue (I exaggerate a little, to make the point). So-called "digital ICs" are actually analogue circuits in which voltages within certain ranges are interpreted as digital signals. Failure to understand that and deal with it leads to specialists in "signal integrity" being able to make a good living.

So, is an x86 processor hardware or software?
Is an IC hardware or software? Does the answer change if the IC is an MCU? Why?
Is an FPGA hardware or software? In what way is that fundamentally different to an embedded MCU?

Quote
The fact that software was involved in the design process is irrelevant.

I have never claimed that software being involved in the design process was relevant. You were the one that introduced that kind of concept.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2022, 07:12:19 pm »
Quote
So, is an x86 processor hardware or software?
Is an IC hardware or software? Does the answer change if the IC is an MCU? Why?
Is an FPGA hardware or software? In what way is that fundamentally different to an embedded MCU?

Wouldn't the answer depend on what you're going to do with them? If you're making one run Windows then clearly it is software. But if you're trying to create a motherboard on which to stick them then clearly that's hardware. You can be a wiz at DDR5 layout and barely able to write a one-line hello.bat, and similarly be able to implement some adjacent row snooping algorithm and yet be unable to identify the right DIMM slot to plug one into.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2022, 07:20:20 pm »
[more of the same, from both of us]
I think we're shooting past each other, and you seem to be assuming ridiculously fundamental ignorance on my part.

I would enjoy continuing this friendly debate, but this probably isn't the thread for it.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2022, 08:10:42 pm »
Quote
So, is an x86 processor hardware or software?
Is an IC hardware or software? Does the answer change if the IC is an MCU? Why?
Is an FPGA hardware or software? In what way is that fundamentally different to an embedded MCU?

Wouldn't the answer depend on what you're going to do with them? If you're making one run Windows then clearly it is software. But if you're trying to create a motherboard on which to stick them then clearly that's hardware. You can be a wiz at DDR5 layout and barely able to write a one-line hello.bat, and similarly be able to implement some adjacent row snooping algorithm and yet be unable to identify the right DIMM slot to plug one into.

I don't think the use matters.

FPGA are blank until made useful by code written in an HDL. MCUs blank until made useful by code written in C. X86s are the name of our  lives.

FSMs can be created in pure software (e.g. telecom systems) or pure hardware (e.g. offshore oil rigs using hydraulic logic) or programes that configure blank hardware,or a combination of all techniques.

That principle is not limited to FSMs, of course.

There is no easily defendable black and white distinction between hardware and software; it is a gray continuum.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2022, 08:14:44 pm »
[more of the same, from both of us]
I think we're shooting past each other, and you seem to be assuming ridiculously fundamental ignorance on my part.

I would enjoy continuing this friendly debate, but this probably isn't the thread for it.

The relevance is limited to helping budding engineers realise that labels unhelpfully and incorrectly partition design concepts and implementations.

The earlier and more they think in general terms, the better for their career. Anything that prods people to discard unhelpful concepts is to be welcomed.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2022, 08:44:36 pm »
The relevance is limited to helping budding engineers realise that labels unhelpfully and incorrectly partition design concepts and implementations.

The earlier and more they think in general terms, the better for their career. Anything that prods people to discard unhelpful concepts is to be welcomed.
But to think clearly about a system / problem / solution, you need to be able to analyze and recognize the fundamental essence as well as the details.  We partition and categorize (label) things so we can best find the optimum interconnections (I'm not talking about wires here), and overall structure.

You saying, essentially, "we can't call this hardware because, hey, look over there, someone did something similar with software!, or "there's 'software' inside that component" is not being helpful.

Of course we should consider all the tools in the box when we are approaching a design -- hardware, software, etc. -- and usually it's a mix.  But first you must understand the thing, and appropriate labels can be essential to that understanding.  Yes, you can also trap yourself into a poorly thought-out solution with improper labeling, but I submit that that the labeling is usually an effect, not a cause.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Starting a new CompSci/Electronics career -need advice!
« Reply #49 on: September 08, 2022, 09:57:38 pm »
The relevance is limited to helping budding engineers realise that labels unhelpfully and incorrectly partition design concepts and implementations.

The earlier and more they think in general terms, the better for their career. Anything that prods people to discard unhelpful concepts is to be welcomed.
But to think clearly about a system / problem / solution, you need to be able to analyze and recognize the fundamental essence as well as the details.  We partition and categorize (label) things so we can best find the optimum interconnections (I'm not talking about wires here), and overall structure.

You saying, essentially, "we can't call this hardware because, hey, look over there, someone did something similar with software!, or "there's 'software' inside that component" is not being helpful.

No, I'm not saying that.

I'm saying don't  be constrained by needlessly structuring your thinking around a bogus split between hardware and software.

Yes, that does happen.it is a variant of Conway's Law, viz
Any organization that designs a system (defined broadly) will produce a design whose structure is a copy of the organization's communication structure.
— Melvin E. Conway

As I recounted, during one job interview the HRDroid needed to pigeonhole me as either a hardware engineer exclusive-or a software engineer, because that dictated the part of the organisation I would work in.

I declined to answer, and he was stymied. I didn't take the offered job!

Quote
Of course we should consider all the tools in the box when we are approaching a design -- hardware, software, etc. -- and usually it's a mix.  But first you must understand the thing, and appropriate labels can be essential to that understanding.  Yes, you can also trap yourself into a poorly thought-out solution with improper labeling, but I submit that that the labeling is usually an effect, not a cause.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 


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