What do you think is ok?

You should pay for everything.
18 (7.3%)
Tweaking hardware is ok, downloading or tweaking software is not.
22 (8.9%)
Tweaking hardware and software is ok, if it is mine I can do what I want.
155 (63%)
Everything is ok as long as it saves me money.
31 (12.6%)
Something else.
20 (8.1%)

Total Members Voted: 237

Author Topic: Stealing: The double standard?  (Read 95058 times)

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Offline mamalala

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Re: Stealing: The double standard?
« Reply #325 on: February 19, 2014, 09:14:03 pm »
Ok, but lack of EULA enforcement does not mean ownership of source code or patents which are implemented in the software.  (You still don't own it.)

There is quite a difference between a regular software program that is available to be run on a computer, and firmware that is tied to a very specific piece of hardware. In the latter, the firmware is thought of being an integral part of the complete machine. It is required to have the machine work as intended. I can't use it  on anything else, nor can i go and get an alternative for it elsewhere, very much unlike normal software, where you can chose between different programs from different vendors.

In any case, over here i am allowed to fiddle around with software that i bought in any way i want. What i can not legally do in most cases is to redistribute the modified software, unlike the original software, which i  am always allowed to resell, as long as i don't keep a copy for myself.



Offline nctnico

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Re: Stealing: The double standard?
« Reply #326 on: February 19, 2014, 11:33:23 pm »
Ok, but lack of EULA enforcement does not mean ownership of source code or patents which are implemented in the software.  (You still don't own it.)
True. In case of software copyright laws apply which say the work remains the property of the owner. You only buy the right to use the software.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Stealing: The double standard?
« Reply #327 on: February 20, 2014, 12:09:57 am »
In the US for example, the legality isn't clear at all (actual EULA language hasn't ever been challenged directly in a court of law yet, as defending attorneys have kept this from happening).

And that is why, no matter how hard anyone tries to extrapolate other cases (game conconsoles etc), or makes claims that it's "illegal" etc and to read EULA etc, no such case law exists for any form of test equipment or other similar hardware product. So until that time modifying such hardware is not "illegal" until such case laws sets a precedence, or there are federal or states that prohibit it.
EULA mean nothing until a company tries to test them and gets a court ruling, which I think would be pretty darn hard to do.
And has been pointed out, there is a strong history in the industry of publishing much hardware modifications for many decades now.

Offline Weez

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Re: Stealing: The double standard?
« Reply #328 on: March 17, 2014, 08:06:27 pm »
Just stumbled on this thread and felt compelled to add my $0.02.  I confess I didn't read all 24 pages, just skimmed through it, so I may be repeating another's comment(s).

It seems we have a bit of everything, opinion-wise, here. 

I think it's sad that we live in such an age of planned obsolescence.  For example, if I pay 2 or 300.00 for a media player, I consider that to be a decent chunk of change.  I then look at the warranty and it says the unit is covered for 90 days.  So, it could be viewed that, by agreeing to the purchase, I'm saying that in 3 months I should be willing to fork out another 300 bucks to replace a defective unit, no complaints or arguments.

If we take end-user abuse out of the picture, then the manufacturer is basically saying that they have no, or very little, confidence in their product(s).  Yet they still want top dollar for them. 

I think that's crazy...yet we, as consumers, continue to flock to the stores in droves, like a bunch of lemmings.

I've been a woodworker for many years.  I have a shop filled with top quality (and expensive) tools, many of which are very old.  Once upon a time, there was a mantra of "spend your money on quality tools...buy it once, and be done with it".  I have handplanes that are 100+ years old, and still work just as well as they did when they were new.  If I ever decide to sell them, I'll get back most of what I paid.  When these tools were new, they cost the equivalent (sometimes more) of a week's wages.  But you only had to do it once.

If I pay a premium for a (insert electronic item here), I expect that sumbitch to run like a raped ape for years, not months. 

Not a very realistic outlook in today's world, I know, and I know that there are some items being made today that are top shelf quality.  These aren't the norm, though, at least in my experience.

If I pay 7 or 8 hundred dollars for a Rigol scope, even if it's considered "entry level" for it's bracket, shouldn't I expect it to run for years, even with heavy use?  Look at all the Teks (and other brands) that are 40 or 50 years old (or older) and still going strong, minor repairs/calibration notwithstanding.  That's quality.  Sure, it came with a price, but it was money well spent.  An investment, one might say.  If the price of admission for a Tek, back in the day, doesn't equate to that of a Rigol today, is that an excuse for shoddy performance and/or longevity? 

I say it isn't, because with all the advancements in technology, manufacturing processes, the lesser costs involved should equate to savings to us, the purchasers/users...not the profit to the company.  Make your profit by selling more of a quality item, not by selling less of an intentionally crippled product at a bloated price.

Since that seems to be the status quo (I won't give specific examples here) of the industry (a general term), then I believe that we, as consumers, really have no choice but to strike back whatever way we can. 

If that means hacking a 100Mhz Rigol scope into a 200Mhz, then so be it.  I've no problems whatsoever with that. 

Same thing with software.  Sell your product at a reasonable price.  Reward loyal customers.  Only release a new version when you've really surpassed the old one enough to where there is a signiifcant difference (cough, Adobe, cough), not just because two years have gone by.

Don't wanna do that?  Not enough profit in that business model?  Ok fine...but just know that those of us who don't agree with the corporate greed mentality, will continue to obtain what we want, for free.

If you buy a scope and can hack it into a better model, do it, and  with a clear conscience.  Install your software on as many computers as you own, likewise, with a clear conscience.

If these goddamned lawyers could make it illegal to fold your Charmin in half to get double the use when wiping your ass, they'd do it.  Screw 'em.

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