Author Topic: Steorn Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!  (Read 39768 times)

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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Steorn Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« on: December 08, 2015, 08:44:30 pm »
These scamers are now trying to sell an everlasting USB charger, from a website that redirects to Facebook orbo.com

And there's someone crowdfunding to buy one to bust :
http://boingboing.net/2015/12/08/free-energy-for-sale-steorn.html

 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2016, 11:02:15 am by EEVblog »
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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2015, 09:18:05 pm »
OK, so 1200 Euro for a charger that gives "One tablet charge per day"
Assuming a 5Ah battery, let' say 25Wh per day. Give them the benefit of the doubt and say 50Wh

Typical UK mains electricity cost £0.10 per kWh, so £1 is equivalent to 20 days' Orbo charge
So payback time approx 20,000 days, about 50 years...
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Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2015, 09:32:59 pm »
So here's my guess in the unlikely event that they so actually ship something.
It's a box full of batteries, with a circuit to limit discharge to their "one tablet per day" rate.
And a warranty that's slightly shorter then the battery life.
And probably some weasel small print to somehow avoid criminal fraud charges.

Seems like they aren't so keen on actually taking real orders.....
From http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/
 :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:
Quote
So far as I know from the experiences of three people who have attempted to place an order with Steorn (myself included), orders have not yet been accepted. In my case, after sending an e-mail to orders@orbo.com (as instructed in the second webinar video) on December 2, I first received an automated response:

    Thank you for your interest in Orbo technology. We will respond to your email within the next 24 hours.

I then received an e-mail the next day, stating:

    Hi xxxxxxx, thanks, as I'm sure you can appreciate there is a high level of interest and we are working our way through everyone. Could you please let us know your shipping address and we will revert tomorrow with estimated shipping and delivery details etc?

    Best regards,
    The Orbo Team

I replied with my shipping address, but did not hear back the next day as they indicated I would, and it has been the weekend since. We'll see whether the order process proceeds as the new week begins.

 
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Offline Towger

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2015, 09:42:03 pm »
I know a couple of people who have spent about 2k euro on machines which raise the ph of drinking water.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2015, 09:46:55 pm »
Wow, after all this time, they are still at it? I guess they probably don't have any other choice as their reputation as some kind of engineering company was destroyed the first day they started this BS about a perpetual motion machine.
 

Offline amyk

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2015, 10:11:09 am »
They would need >10kWh to charge an average tablet once a day for a year. A 10kWh battery is not that small, but the price range, if not the size, does suggest a humongous battery of some sort. Large lithium batteries have special shipping restrictions, so it'd be interesting to see them get caught if they try to hide that fact...
 

Offline Ian.M

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2015, 10:32:37 am »
Check it with a Geiger counter! It might be a surplus Russian RTG.
 
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2015, 10:42:31 am »
The Whack-A-Mole of the over-unity community!

They won't ship. If they do, it'll get torn down and the game will be up.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2015, 10:52:56 am by EEVblog »
 

Offline Artlav

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2015, 12:15:22 pm »
Hm. I have a powerbank out of 4 18650 cells, that can charge 3 phones on one charge.
The thing weights 250g, and is 154 cm^3 in volume.

Assuming a warranty period of 14 days, that gives a device of 3.5-4 kg and 13x13x13 cm in size.
Ain't exactly large, but bigger than what they show.

Price would be in the $1 for the controller + 14 x 4 x $0.7 = $41 if using recycled batteries, or 14 x 4 x $8 = $500 if using new ones.
Quite a bit of a profit margin.

Sounds plausible, i guess?

Check it with a Geiger counter! It might be a surplus Russian RTG.
Doubt it - these things weight 0.5-1.5 tonnes, and put out 50W when fresh.
They are typically used as laptop chargers by northern deer herders, and aren't exactly easy to come by after the initial grab in the 90s.
 

Offline rich

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2015, 01:58:18 pm »
So here's my guess in the unlikely event that they so actually ship something.
It's a box full of batteries, with a circuit to limit discharge to their "one tablet per day" rate.

Linked from the boingboing is http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com which has more detailed detective work, well worth a read. Basically Stoern described it to shareholders as a cells constructed out of 2 (dissimilar?) metal films with an electret material. These don't charge your device directly as they can't deliver the power, but are used to trickle charge a lithium pack which acts as a reservoir.

Later though, when questioned on Facebook the reply was:
Quote
I am assuming that your questions are based on the 'leaked' video of the private webinar. While it is true that we use electrets the whole thing is a gross simplification of how we build out systems, basic physics would tell us that in a system like this, all the free electrons will gather on one plate in any closed circuit arrangement - hence creating a 'one shot' system. The example cells and descriptions are for demonstrative purpose only, building such a system would lead to a very frustrating experience! So the questions don't really apply!

and my favourite quote:
Quote
I think what might be happening is that we are splitting time. I know that sounds absolutely nuts but I think that we are using the differences in the magnetic fields to manipulate time and that is leading to the creation of energy.

 

Offline rich

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 03:34:33 pm »
I watched the shareholder video and Shaun seems to repeatedly assert that the industry standard failure rate of consumer electronics is 25% without giving a timeframe and also admits that half of that 25% is due to physical damage not component failure. When asked about product lifespan, he clings to the 1 in 4 failure rate when managing expectations of how Orbo will perform, he expects the lifetime of their bit (presumably the orbo cell?) to be many many years, but the other electronics "will break".

Quote
If that power cube works after three days, its an exceptional power cube. If it's working in a month, it's off the freaking scale, and if it's working after 2 months, it changes the world. Will it be working in 2 years? I don't know, things fail. We warrant for 12 months.

So yeah, they could ship a box of batteries and if it doesn't last 12 months then you can ship it back to Stoern under warranty and they recharge repair it for you. On a less skeptical note, are there engineering tradeoffs in batteries which would give much higher energy density than lithium but with the downside of minimal power delivery or does the chemistry just forbid it?
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2015, 06:06:11 pm »
Cringeworthy, almost parody like.

I don't think they can pull off a "put loads of batteries in a box scam"
If you take a battery with an exceedingly high capacity of 19Ah:
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/d-batteries/7020830/
The average mobile phone takes 3.5Ah, you dont even need the back of the envelope to see that size and cost is prohibitive even if your target was for the battery to last a few months before running off.

I think their goal is to find some rich fool(s) to perpetually bankroll "research" because sure as hell if they ever sell a product the game is up.
Unfortunately there are plenty of people willing to believe this stuff,
 

Offline suicidaleggroll

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2015, 06:11:10 pm »
Quote
In 2007 Steorn set up a highly polished weekend-long public demonstration of their technology, now dubbed Orbo, at the Kinetica Museum in London ... The big day arrived and the demo was... delayed. Then delayed again. And finally cancelled. The device failed, and Steorn blamed it on the hot lights beating down on the museum installation. Then in 2009, Steorn's hand-picked jury of experts came out with their verdict: they had been shown no evidence that Orbo generated excess energy. Finally at the end of 2009 Steorn held another public demo, this time in Dublin. They showed off a new version of their Orbo technology ... it was connected to a battery that drove those electromagnets (which it was said to continuously recharge, but which could just as well have been providing all the power itself) and its claims of excess energy production were supported only by cryptic and inconclusive calorimetry tests and oscilloscope readings.

Over the years since, Steorn has managed to convince enough of the right people of the credibility of their technology to gather themselves 20 million euros of investment.

 |O |O |O
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2015, 06:38:26 pm »
Quote
In 2007 Steorn set up a highly polished weekend-long public demonstration of their technology, now dubbed Orbo, at the Kinetica Museum in London ... The big day arrived and the demo was... delayed. Then delayed again. And finally cancelled. The device failed, and Steorn blamed it on the hot lights beating down on the museum installation. Then in 2009, Steorn's hand-picked jury of experts came out with their verdict: they had been shown no evidence that Orbo generated excess energy. Finally at the end of 2009 Steorn held another public demo, this time in Dublin. They showed off a new version of their Orbo technology ... it was connected to a battery that drove those electromagnets (which it was said to continuously recharge, but which could just as well have been providing all the power itself) and its claims of excess energy production were supported only by cryptic and inconclusive calorimetry tests and oscilloscope readings.

Over the years since, Steorn has managed to convince enough of the right people of the credibility of their technology to gather themselves 20 million euros of investment.

 |O |O |O

yep, they dont need to sell any products at all... just keep finding new investors

Offline mikeselectricstuffTopic starter

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2015, 12:21:14 am »
http://orbo.com/ now has a shopping cart for their Snake Oil, but the charger is apparently sold out...

Maybe here's the get-out
Quote
Force Majeure
We shall not be liable for any failure to perform, or delay in performing, any of our obligations where such failure or delay is a result of circumstances beyond our control.

The laws of thermodynamics would be beyond their control (and probably comprehension as well)
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Offline wbeaty

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2015, 03:53:08 am »
It's a box full of batteries, with a circuit to limit discharge to their "one tablet per day" rate.
And a warranty that's slightly shorter then the battery life.

Ha, that was my guess too!  A custom-built battery with enormous internal impedance.  That way it's impossible to rapidly test the total stored energy (by heavy load etc.)  You could short it, and it still might take a year to run it down to zero.

Actually this has a history.

It's the Alessandro Volta perpetual motion scam of 1802!   Volta himself was a "free energy" believer.  He was certain that his Voltaic Piles were based on "contact electrification" and not on chemical reactions, and they would operate forever if he could just get rid of that pesky corrosion problem.  Many experts of the time were confused about this, especially after experimenting with dry-electrolyte batteries, the DuLuc or Zamboni "dry piles" using thousands of layers, with dry paper as the electrolyte.   Such a device could put out microwatts and drive electrostatic motors.   Simple calcs show that they'd do this for several centuries before their plates finally corroded away.

See, it's the same scam: immense series impedance lets the battery keep working, but it prevents any quick measurment of net energy storage.    It's perfect for "powering the controversy."   It might go for centuries!

Steorn just has to word their guarantee so that, if their infinite-life battery fails after ?months?, then it's the user's fault.

The central idea here is that there's no such thing as an insulator.   Materials are either electron conductors (metals,) or they're ionic conductors (electrolytes.)   Glass, plastic, rubber, if they have any mobile ions at all, and you deposit a thin film of the material between plates of two differing metals, you've got a battery.  It's internal resistance might be megohms or gigohms, but it's still a battery, and can (slowly) charge up a capacitor etc., as long as the capacitor dielectric has higher resistance than the "electrolyte."

« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 03:54:41 am by wbeaty »
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Offline amyk

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2015, 04:27:36 am »
You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell

Charging a phone/tablet/etc. requires many orders of magnitude more energy though...
 

Offline wbeaty

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #17 on: December 24, 2015, 05:39:21 am »
Charging a phone/tablet/etc. requires many orders of magnitude more energy though...

Not true, since the stored energy is proportional to the grams of metal in the active plates.   Imagine a group of AA alkaline batteries with volume similar to the Oxford dry-pile.   Of course the energy rate, the peak watts of a dry-paper electrolyte battery is many millions of times lower.   But the energy density might not be that far different.   Also, rechargable cells typically store fewer joules than primary batteries of similar volume, since the rechargables must include inert plate-supports which take up space.  A primary cell like the dry-pile's (and perhaps Steorn's) can fill that same space with zinc, lithium etc., and let it be consumed entirely, running for twice as long in the process.

If the Steorn battery device is ?10x ? larger volume than a typical tablet battery, then we might expect to get at least that number of tablet-charges out of it before the active metal is consumed, the thing goes dead and the scam is revealed.   Heh, I wonder if their batt-stack uses lithium thin films?!

Odd thought:  what if the Steorn device includes a rectifier effect, and the electrolyte is inherently piezo?   Whacking the thing down on the tabletop might inject energy of fractional-joules scale!  :)   In that case, carrying it around in a backpack for weeks might make it last far longer than if it was carefully supported on a soft pillow at home.
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Offline Stonent

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2015, 05:15:01 am »
I know a couple of people who have spent about 2k euro on machines which raise the ph of drinking water.

Just put a teaspoon of baking soda in it.  About 50 cents a box, probably good for 100 glasses.
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Offline amyk

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #19 on: December 28, 2015, 12:26:21 am »
I felt like doing a little more back-of-the-envelope maths:

Assuming this device holds 10kWh of energy, that's 36MJ. Its volume is around 1L, so let's say its energy density is 36MJ/L.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_energy_densities

Diesel fuel: 35.8MJ/L
Jet fuel: 37.4MJ/L
Gasoline: 32.4MJ/L

Lithium primary: 4.32MJ/L

Interestingly enough, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc%E2%80%93air_battery gives up to 35.21MJ/L... so it could be possible the Orbo is just a gigantic metal-air primary battery. That makes a bit more plausible, but still not completely believable...
 

Offline rrinker

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2015, 02:48:24 am »
I know a couple of people who have spent about 2k euro on machines which raise the ph of drinking water.

Just put a teaspoon of baking soda in it.  About 50 cents a box, probably good for 100 glasses.

 Same thing, on the box level, works great in my pool. In the mean time, people with pools half the size spend 10x as much as I do on chemicals each summer, yet my water chemistry is always spot on.

 

Offline rich

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2016, 03:46:03 am »
Recent article about their financial status (I think they just released the 2015 accounts)  http://www.businesspost.ie/steorns-deficits-rises-to-e21-million-in-most-recent-accounts/

And Steorn are suggesting orbo might actually be shipping real soon now:
Quote from:
    "we expect to have shipping clearance by the end of this week or early next week"
whatever that means!?

 

Offline McBryce

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2016, 11:23:25 am »
Looks like they've just started shipping: http://boingboing.net/2015/12/08/free-energy-for-sale-steorn.html

Yay! Free energy for anyone with €1200!

McBryce.
30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 

Offline Srbel

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2016, 01:11:53 pm »
Leave her alone! Don't you see she's hot?!

 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: Stoern Orbo free energy scam - they're Still at it!
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2016, 01:41:50 pm »
must be the worst produced video ever...  i like the way someone is eating their dinner over the audio!

but it purports to show their magic beans technology

https://youtu.be/0cR7wRDPcHU?t=16m23s


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