Author Topic: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters  (Read 7512 times)

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Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #50 on: April 28, 2023, 08:33:57 pm »
I don't see what's wrong with good old fashioned, HEALTHY cycling? I made this comment to someone last night - they agreed. Why do we need electric scooters? Kids used to BIKE everywhere years ago...

In those days you had a single block time commitment, and generally weren't covering 95 km.  I am gradually aging out of bicycles, but in the last decade a 90km ride was a four to five hour commitment that left me hot, sweaty and too tired to do anything else for a few hours.  If you are looking for transportation rather than exercise an ebike is a great option that can also add a bit of exercise.
Most people here wouldn't want to commute any decent distance on motorcycle,. because the weather isn't nice most of the time. Personally speaking, in the winter getting warm is a benefit of cycling and is why I wouldn't want an ebike.

you can use it as a normal bike, here the rules limit the electric aid to below 25km/h, so just pedal faster

Sure, but for pedaling, I just prefer normal bikes though, that don't weigh 30kg. ;D

afaict electric roadbikes are more like 12-15kg
I've not seen an ebike that light before. It think the point is, if you're fit, there's not much point in an electric bike, unless you travel a hilly route, because most of the time it won't be providing any assistance. Heck I'm getting on a bit. I'm 41 and have had some injuries which have taken their toll on my performance: soft tissue scarring to my right leg, which means it aches, if I push it too hard and I had a pneumothorax on my right lung and I still average way higher than the ebike limit on my commute to work.

Going back to the rationale for the limit in the UK: there are quite a lot of shared pedestrian & cycle tracks and the limit is there to avoid posing too much of a danger to pedestrians. I daren't use one of those cycle tracks near where I live in the dark because it's very difficult to see people dressed in dark clothing, even with good lights, especially in poor weather conditions. I even take time off in winter, so I can get to work and back in the daylight. I once went on the road because there was a gale force wind behind me and I was going downhill, when I saw a group of people in the distance, because I was doing well over 50kmph and there were no cars around, otherwise I would have slowed down. I know there are other cyclists who would have just carried on past them at that silly speed.
 

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2023, 05:10:13 am »
The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.
Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.
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Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2023, 01:12:34 pm »
The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.
Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, which is where the original poster is, all ebikes have to be pedal assist, capped to 250W and 25kmph. Want a throttle? Get a motorcycle licence. Sorry. I don't make the rules and would not advocate breaking the law.
 

Online Psi

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2023, 11:45:37 pm »
Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.

You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2023, 11:47:47 pm by Psi »
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Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #54 on: April 30, 2023, 08:00:04 am »
Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.

You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.
All is well, until you're involved in a serious accident, then they'll make more of an effort to investigate.
 

Offline shapirus

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #55 on: April 30, 2023, 08:16:19 am »
afaict electric roadbikes are more like 12-15kg
that's the weight of an average full-suspension MTB (and those close to 12 kg are a higher-level expensive ones) without batteries and motors.
 

Online Psi

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #56 on: April 30, 2023, 08:37:05 am »
Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.

You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.
All is well, until you're involved in a serious accident, then they'll make more of an effort to investigate.

There is some risk to it yes, but in NZ at least the law doesn't actually ban having a throttle.
It's more that the e-bike must:
 "be designed to be primarily propelled by the muscular energy of the rider".

So it's more about what the bike was "designed" to do rather than what you're were actually using it for at any specific time.
This is a bit of a loop hole as it was never written to regulate home-built bikes, it was intended for e-bikes you buy in a store.

It also comes down to how you define "primarily".   If you only ever use pedal assist but only put in 20% of the energy are you in compliance with the law?

If you have a huge battery pack that takes up a significant amount of space on the bike then it's pretty hard to argue the primary use of the bike is for pedaling.
But if you have a normal size battery and a throttle you can still argue that you primarily pedal when on the bike and it's hard for them to prove you don't typically pedal and just so happened to be using the throttle on the day of an accident. (assuming they can prove you actually were using it at all, which seems unlikely). And if the bike controller is set to always boot-up in pedal assist mode until you press a button to enable the throttle, then even better.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2023, 08:42:15 am by Psi »
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Offline John B

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2023, 09:24:36 am »
It's more that the e-bike must:
 "be designed to be primarily propelled by the muscular energy of the rider".

"Yes officer, my legs produce 5kW each."
 

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2023, 11:06:58 am »
The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.
Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, which is where the original poster is, all ebikes have to be pedal assist, capped to 250W and 25kmph. Want a throttle? Get a motorcycle licence. Sorry. I don't make the rules and would not advocate breaking the law.
Australia had transitionary rules that allowed throttles, then adopted the EU pedal assist / 250W / 25km limits. Over in The Netherlands where light weight speed limited vehicles have a much longer history (more categories, and different spaces to use) the Police have solutions:
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2023, 12:50:49 pm »
The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.
Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, which is where the original poster is, all ebikes have to be pedal assist, capped to 250W and 25kmph. Want a throttle? Get a motorcycle licence. Sorry. I don't make the rules and would not advocate breaking the law.
Australia had transitionary rules that allowed throttles, then adopted the EU pedal assist / 250W / 25km limits. Over in The Netherlands where light weight speed limited vehicles have a much longer history (more categories, and different spaces to use) the Police have solutions:

so you deploy VW dieselgate tactics and make sure it is within legal limits on the test stand ;)
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2023, 12:51:46 pm »
Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.

You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.
All is well, until you're involved in a serious accident, then they'll make more of an effort to investigate.

and you might be ruined because no insurance will cover
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2023, 02:30:08 pm »
Yeah, that law is pretty common in many parts of the world, a lot of people DIY building a E-bike ignore it and add a throttle anyway.

You can do it somewhat stealthy, so it's not obvious if the police actually check that but most dont.
All is well, until you're involved in a serious accident, then they'll make more of an effort to investigate.

There is some risk to it yes, but in NZ at least the law doesn't actually ban having a throttle.
It's more that the e-bike must:
 "be designed to be primarily propelled by the muscular energy of the rider".

So it's more about what the bike was "designed" to do rather than what you're were actually using it for at any specific time.
This is a bit of a loop hole as it was never written to regulate home-built bikes, it was intended for e-bikes you buy in a store.

It also comes down to how you define "primarily".   If you only ever use pedal assist but only put in 20% of the energy are you in compliance with the law?

If you have a huge battery pack that takes up a significant amount of space on the bike then it's pretty hard to argue the primary use of the bike is for pedaling.
But if you have a normal size battery and a throttle you can still argue that you primarily pedal when on the bike and it's hard for them to prove you don't typically pedal and just so happened to be using the throttle on the day of an accident. (assuming they can prove you actually were using it at all, which seems unlikely). And if the bike controller is set to always boot-up in pedal assist mode until you press a button to enable the throttle, then even better.
The law in the UK is more clear. The fact it's ambiguous where you live, is more concerning. It's a tactic of authoritarian regimes, who apply the law, when it suits them. No, I'm not picking on New Zealand. The UK also has some laws which are ambiguous, such as the one around TV licencing, which doesn't clearly define a TV station.
 
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Online Someone

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2023, 09:36:19 pm »
The point of an E-bike to me is for it to be fun to drive/ride, basically like you have a mini-motorbike with fun acceleration.
Pedal-assist is totally pointless to me, give me a throttle or there's no point.
I don't know about Australia, but in the UK, which is where the original poster is, all ebikes have to be pedal assist, capped to 250W and 25kmph. Want a throttle? Get a motorcycle licence. Sorry. I don't make the rules and would not advocate breaking the law.
Australia had transitionary rules that allowed throttles, then adopted the EU pedal assist / 250W / 25km limits. Over in The Netherlands where light weight speed limited vehicles have a much longer history (more categories, and different spaces to use) the Police have solutions:
so you deploy VW dieselgate tactics and make sure it is within legal limits on the test stand ;)
You can do what you like, but over here if spotted by some officer of the law going above the limited speed (that they can substantiate) or something else that catches their attention then you can end up with the vehicle impounded and all the bonus unregistered/uninsured/unlicensed fines along with it.
https://maribyrnonghobsonsbay.starweekly.com.au/news/electric-bike-impounded/
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-06/escooter-illegal-to-ride-victoria-police-safety-blitz/101498938
 

Online Psi

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #63 on: May 01, 2023, 12:02:03 pm »
It would be pretty trivial to have a 250W power and 25kph speed limit the default and those limits get disabled on hidden button press.  Then you just need to power it off if you suspect it's going to be tested.

Not suggesting anyone does that. just saying...
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Online Psi

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2023, 12:05:01 pm »
The fact it's ambiguous where you live, is more concerning. It's a tactic of authoritarian regimes, who apply the law, when it suits them. No, I'm not picking on New Zealand. The UK also has some laws which are ambiguous, such as the one around TV licencing, which doesn't clearly define a TV station.

Na, the rules just have not been updated in ages.
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Offline thm_w

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2023, 10:59:07 pm »
"average" person is below that figure, while self selecting "fit" people would come in around there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power
Even young healthy males have trouble meeting 150W for an hour and that's operating to exhaustion:
"Effects of Differing Pedalling Speeds on the Power-Duration Relationship of High Intensity Cycle Ergometry." McNaughton & Thomas 1996
(people cycling for transport generally don't arrive unable to function)

The first wiki link is just someones estimate of "50-150W".
The second one is a good find, shows an infinite line at about 110W. So healthy 24y/o male could cycle easily at 110W for hours. 150W for an hour was the average failure point as you say.

Semi related one I found, power in trained males seemed to drop more with age vs women https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3794488/
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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2023, 12:13:30 am »
25km/h on a flat road, is only 115W of output power. Its a bit hard to see that the average person can only output 115W for 1hr. But if you include sedentary individuals, you could be right.
"average" person is below that figure, while self selecting "fit" people would come in around there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_power
Even young healthy males have trouble meeting 150W for an hour and that's operating to exhaustion:
"Effects of Differing Pedalling Speeds on the Power-Duration Relationship of High Intensity Cycle Ergometry." McNaughton & Thomas 1996
(people cycling for transport generally don't arrive unable to function)
The first wiki link is just someones estimate of "50-150W".
The second one is a good find, shows an infinite line at about 110W. So healthy 24y/o male could cycle easily at 110W for hours. 150W for an hour was the average failure point as you say.

Semi related one I found, power in trained males seemed to drop more with age vs women https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3794488/
exhaustion /= easily
also those figures and plots are extrapolated from a simple model that breaks down at longer (1h plus) durations so the numbers are not representative of longer durations or "infinity":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/a-possible-way-to-keep-your-fridge-cold-in-long-term-blackouts/msg4245910/#msg4245910
>100W for hours at a time is moving into amateur athlete territory. 100W in 1h is already way above "average" person, but do find some figures to support your claims.....
 

Offline thm_w

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2023, 09:48:24 pm »
exhaustion /= easily
also those figures and plots are extrapolated from a simple model that breaks down at longer (1h plus) durations so the numbers are not representative of longer durations or "infinity":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/a-possible-way-to-keep-your-fridge-cold-in-long-term-blackouts/msg4245910/#msg4245910
>100W for hours at a time is moving into amateur athlete territory. 100W in 1h is already way above "average" person, but do find some figures to support your claims.....

I'm sure you've experienced the same thing when running, hiking, working whatever. Push yourself a bit, find the point at which you start to progressively wear out, then dial it back. At that level you can go for many hours. You can verify this by looking at a power curve, where power output is recorded on all of your rides, then it gets mapped against time spent.

One example (super fit person, not average):

You can see the difference in power between 2 and 4h is minimal, maybe a few percent. Obviously we don't approach infinity, as we need sleep, but, maybe 5-10h until you see a drop.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070974/
https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles/critical-power-calculator
« Last Edit: May 02, 2023, 09:50:16 pm by thm_w »
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Offline tom66

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2023, 10:10:24 pm »
A friend of mine pointed me to a website selling scooters with an output power (peak) of 8400W and a top speed of about 60 mph.  That particular scooter weighed 50kg.  With a 100kg rider, say, it has a total mass of 150kg, and a power-to-weight ratio of 56W per kg.

What else has a power to weight ratio in the same range?  The VW Golf 1.5 TSI (2022) with fuel and driver weighs about 1400kg and has an output power of 96kW peak.  That's about 68W per kg.

So this scooter has nearly the same power to weight ratio as a VW Golf, a vehicle for which you need insurance and a proper licence adminstered by a test facility to operate. Obviously, the collision damage risk for the Golf is far worse; I'm not doubting that.  But I've also little doubt that 30+ mph of 150kg scooter and rider hitting a pedestrian will also be fatal.

These vehicles are going to be used; the "cat is out of the bag".  It is up to the government to find appropriate regulations for them.   That will almost certainly include insurance, and possibly a basic competency test.   They'd better figure it out sooner, rather than later.
 
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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2023, 10:54:15 pm »
exhaustion /= easily
also those figures and plots are extrapolated from a simple model that breaks down at longer (1h plus) durations so the numbers are not representative of longer durations or "infinity":
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/a-possible-way-to-keep-your-fridge-cold-in-long-term-blackouts/msg4245910/#msg4245910
>100W for hours at a time is moving into amateur athlete territory. 100W in 1h is already way above "average" person, but do find some figures to support your claims.....

I'm sure you've experienced the same thing when running, hiking, working whatever. Push yourself a bit, find the point at which you start to progressively wear out, then dial it back. At that level you can go for many hours. You can verify this by looking at a power curve, where power output is recorded on all of your rides, then it gets mapped against time spent.

One example (super fit person, not average):

You can see the difference in power between 2 and 4h is minimal, maybe a few percent. Obviously we don't approach infinity, as we need sleep, but, maybe 5-10h until you see a drop.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5070974/
https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles/critical-power-calculator
You can keep pointing to data from athletes, but that does not link/match/inform data about average people. Every person is unique and has different limitations on their sustained power, the amateur trials that NASA modelled dropped 30-40% from 2hr to 4hr, 150W to 100W. Or you know instead of trying to extrapolate on highly variable human performance data, just go back to the actual question...
That's the whole point: to limit the speed to what an average person can sustain for a decent period of time on an ordinary bike.
I can't find the justification for the laws but, it could also be a direct safety consideration. Above X speed injuries will be much worse.
But my point was it varies based on region. We've got UK 25km/h, Canada 32km/h, USA 32-45km/h. Is the UK one "right"?

25km/h on a flat road, is only 115W of output power. Its a bit hard to see that the average person can only output 115W for 1hr. But if you include sedentary individuals, you could be right.
To design road infrastructure the speed of the users is measured, average cyclists being somewhere around 15km/h (already a self selecting group, and not indicative of overall population average). Average bicycle speed sampled in real use 13.5km/h
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1687814015616918
The histograms only have a few outliers above 25km/h, making the 25km/h limit seem pretty reasonable.
 

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Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2023, 07:28:18 am »
Regarding the average speed of cyclists: it's not just how fast one can comfortably go, but also how safe it is and stopping and starting through busy traffic.  For example, my average speed might be 25kmph, over 10km or so, but that will include slowing down for pedestrians and stopping to wait for traffic. It's probably closer to 30kmph, when I'm at a steady pace, on a clear road.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2023, 12:16:06 pm »
A friend of mine pointed me to a website selling scooters with an output power (peak) of 8400W and a top speed of about 60 mph.  That particular scooter weighed 50kg.  With a 100kg rider, say, it has a total mass of 150kg, and a power-to-weight ratio of 56W per kg.

What else has a power to weight ratio in the same range?  The VW Golf 1.5 TSI (2022) with fuel and driver weighs about 1400kg and has an output power of 96kW peak.  That's about 68W per kg.

So this scooter has nearly the same power to weight ratio as a VW Golf, a vehicle for which you need insurance and a proper licence adminstered by a test facility to operate. Obviously, the collision damage risk for the Golf is far worse; I'm not doubting that.  But I've also little doubt that 30+ mph of 150kg scooter and rider hitting a pedestrian will also be fatal.

These vehicles are going to be used; the "cat is out of the bag".  It is up to the government to find appropriate regulations for them.   That will almost certainly include insurance, and possibly a basic competency test.   They'd better figure it out sooner, rather than later.

where in the world would such a scooter not be illegal to drive on public roads?

 

Offline Zero999

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2023, 04:51:25 pm »
A friend of mine pointed me to a website selling scooters with an output power (peak) of 8400W and a top speed of about 60 mph.  That particular scooter weighed 50kg.  With a 100kg rider, say, it has a total mass of 150kg, and a power-to-weight ratio of 56W per kg.

What else has a power to weight ratio in the same range?  The VW Golf 1.5 TSI (2022) with fuel and driver weighs about 1400kg and has an output power of 96kW peak.  That's about 68W per kg.

So this scooter has nearly the same power to weight ratio as a VW Golf, a vehicle for which you need insurance and a proper licence adminstered by a test facility to operate. Obviously, the collision damage risk for the Golf is far worse; I'm not doubting that.  But I've also little doubt that 30+ mph of 150kg scooter and rider hitting a pedestrian will also be fatal.

These vehicles are going to be used; the "cat is out of the bag".  It is up to the government to find appropriate regulations for them.   That will almost certainly include insurance, and possibly a basic competency test.   They'd better figure it out sooner, rather than later.

where in the world would such a scooter not be illegal to drive on public roads?
If the tyres and brakes were good enough to pass and MoT (the UK road safety check), it was taxed and the driver insured, then it would be perfectly legal to ride in the UK.

Another thing to note about power to weight ratio is an electric motor has most of the torque at lower speeds, whist an internal combustion engine has its peak at high speeds, so a scooter with that specification would beat most cars off the lights, even though it would be left behind on the motorway.
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: superfast (too fast?) electric scooters
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2023, 06:18:47 pm »
A friend of mine pointed me to a website selling scooters with an output power (peak) of 8400W and a top speed of about 60 mph.  That particular scooter weighed 50kg.  With a 100kg rider, say, it has a total mass of 150kg, and a power-to-weight ratio of 56W per kg.

What else has a power to weight ratio in the same range?  The VW Golf 1.5 TSI (2022) with fuel and driver weighs about 1400kg and has an output power of 96kW peak.  That's about 68W per kg.

So this scooter has nearly the same power to weight ratio as a VW Golf, a vehicle for which you need insurance and a proper licence adminstered by a test facility to operate. Obviously, the collision damage risk for the Golf is far worse; I'm not doubting that.  But I've also little doubt that 30+ mph of 150kg scooter and rider hitting a pedestrian will also be fatal.

These vehicles are going to be used; the "cat is out of the bag".  It is up to the government to find appropriate regulations for them.   That will almost certainly include insurance, and possibly a basic competency test.   They'd better figure it out sooner, rather than later.

where in the world would such a scooter not be illegal to drive on public roads?
If the tyres and brakes were good enough to pass and MoT (the UK road safety check), it was taxed and the driver insured, then it would be perfectly legal to ride in the UK.

Another thing to note about power to weight ratio is an electric motor has most of the torque at lower speeds, whist an internal combustion engine has its peak at high speeds, so a scooter with that specification would beat most cars off the lights, even though it would be left behind on the motorway.

but then it would be classified and registered as a motorcycle or similar, no?

 


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