Author Topic: do you work out?  (Read 4668 times)

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Offline thermistor-guy

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2018, 11:33:10 am »
...
Plenty of stuff you can do.
Swimming or water polo.
Rowing
Reformer Pilates
Overhead ladder based stuff at the gym, and almost any gym workout that doesn't involve the knees much. A simple cable machine could workout almost your entire body.

I recently started using cable machines as a variation. They are a very useful tool for building strength, and also for mobility work (range of motion).

Exercises that use rubber bands can also be useful. On his Athlean-X you tube channel, Jeff Cavaliere recently posted a band exercise for external shoulder rotation:

I've been trying it, and it feels useful. My new physio, an expert on shoulders, agrees it has value. So I've included Jeff's suggestion in a tri-set  for shoulder health maintenance, something I now do near the end of each gym session.

Athlean-X is a good source of info for strength conditioning. Jeff is knowledgeable and seriously strong. (But Dude, your dragon flag technique is a little bit sucky, OK? I know you can do better. C'mon.)

Pilates and rowing seem like good options, depending on how the OP's knees feel under load.

The other suggestion I'd make is yoga. Don't be fooled by the beginner stage. Intermediate-level yoga requires significant strength. At advanced levels, yoga has many elements similar to street-style workouts and gymnastics. I don't do it at the moment because, with my training schedule (all up, about 12 hours per week)  I simply don't have the time, and my training focus is elsewhere.

Beginner-level yoga may help with leg strength, joint stability, and reprogramming of comprised movement patterns. Take it easy. Just do what you can, and let your body adapt.

Turnover rate of skeletal muscle is about 90 days (I've heard). In 90 days, you have replaced, say, your biceps muscle with new tissue. Turnover in connective tissue like joints, tendons, ligaments is about 270 days. It's slower. The blood supply is far less plentiful, there. So it takes longer for connective tissue to adapt to training loads.

The number one rule in all conditioning is don't get injured. Injury sucks big-time. Bail out fast if you feel your instructor doesn't know what he/she is doing. Good luck.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 11:57:35 am by thermistor-guy »
 

Offline ChunkyPastaSauce

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2018, 07:48:36 pm »
I'm actually looking for alternative sports/workouts that don't put stress or repetitive movements on the knees.
Maybe take a look at isometrics, you load but with little to no movement. Used to do them when stuck in the car between classes.

Plenty of stuff you can do.
Swimming or water polo.
Rowing
Reformer Pilates
Overhead ladder based stuff at the gym, and almost any gym workout that doesn't involve the knees much. A simple cable machine could workout almost your entire body.

Yes definitely; I just meant for knees
 

Online thm_w

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2018, 08:09:10 pm »
What boggles my mind is that in the weekend if I get out of bed at 10am and eat this breakfast and do my hobbies I only get hungry around 3pm so 5 hours later.
When during weekdays I eat this at 7am go to work I start to crave around 10am so Only three hours later.
This leads me to conclude that ( for me personally) the hunger signals are psychologically influenced by the situation. I do not really really like my job it is not bad but not great so the food will give me comfort. While when I am doing something I really like, the hunger signal is only given when the body starts to get a problem (low bloodsugar).

Stress and lack of sleep will cause overeating and possibly desire for simple carbohydrates. I'm guessing 7am is early for you to wake up.
https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/news/20120314/sleep-less-eat-more#1
https://www.uchicagomedicine.org/prevention-and-screening-articles/sleep-loss-boosts-hunger-and-unhealthy-food-choices

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"We found that sleep restriction boosts a signal that may increase the hedonic aspect of food intake, the pleasure and satisfaction gained from eating," said Erin Hanlon, PhD, a research associate in endocrinology, diabetes and metabolism at the University of Chicago. "Sleep restriction seems to augment the endocannabinoid system, the same system targeted by the active ingredient of marijuana, to enhance the desire for food intake."

Low blood sugar is not really a problem unless you are diabetic IMO. I don't eat from 10pm until 1pm or so. You can train yourself to go longer (see video dave linked), but it may take a lot of effort to get used to it.
 

Offline hans

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2018, 09:10:51 pm »
Thanks all for the responses to my open invitation.

...
Actually these posts make me somewhat sad as well. In the last half year I've been exercising with a physiotherapist to improve stability in my knees, muscle strength in my upper legs, and eventually reduce medial knee pain. I liked the physical exercise, as it is nice to clear you head after a long day or stressful times, but unfortunately physically there were only adverse effects for me. That is not to say it came as a big surprise, given my history with orthopedic surgeons.

Unfortunately it does mean that I'm quite limited in my exercise options. For example, last few months I picked up basic cycling again, and it had a significant negative effect. I'm actually looking for alternative sports/workouts that don't put stress or repetitive movements on the knees. People have been recommending swimming to me, but my physiotherapist has recommended against it due to the instability (AFAIK applies to the breaststroke in particular). But maybe I should try it out if there are no alternatives..

I'm sad to read that. I started training seriously a few years ago, trying to rehabilitate an injured knee. My doctor said it would take eight weeks. It took two years.

For six months I could barely walk. For another three months, I couldn't jog, not even a few metres. For another year or more, my knee would occasionally malfunction while running. The kneecap wouldn't track correctly, and almost jam, but then a few steps later would be fine. This glitch was exasperating, unnerving, and disheartening.

But as luck would have it, even when I couldn't jog, I was problem-free on a stationary bike and an elliptical trainer. So I'd walk to the gym, and use them. I gave up leg strengthening exercises, because they seemed to make my knee worse.

I started to lose confidence in my physiotherapist. Reading the medical literature, I worked out that my recovery was being held back by lingering Arthrogenic Muscle Inhibition (AMI). My physiotherapist seemed clueless about it, gym trainers didn't seem to know about it (not their specialty, so not their fault). My doctor's prognosis was way off (not his specialty, so not his fault)). It dawned on me that, despite well-meaning professionals doing their best, I had to solve this myself. Two years.

And the same with nutrition, and training technique. Because it hit me, hard, that if I don't learn the how, what, and why, I'm at the mercy of well-meaning people who may simply be getting it wrong.

I started off as fat as a department store Santa with arms like sticks, at 93 kg. Not through obvious overeating, just through inactivity and eating a "well-balanced" "conventional" diet recommended by the usual "Intellectuals Yet Idiots" that infest mainstream nutrition.

My weight dropped to 73 kg over two years. Now it's 78 kg, but I'm leaner. I'm stronger now and lifting more weight than ever. The once-injured knee is symptom-free. My aerobic capacity is good but not outstanding. In my competitive cross-country running days, my resting bpm got as low as 39. Now it's 50 bpm, so I'm well short of my genetic potential. There is room for improvement, if I decide to pursue it.

As I phased leg strength training back in, especially single-leg training like King deadlifts, I realized that it helped my running - more power on hills, more comfort when holding a fast pace just below a sprint, better running form when fatigued, so less joint strain. If you are an endurance athlete, I recommend (FWIW) power and strength training. It helps. You are more functional with it, and less prone to injury. The fact that hybrid training (training for strength, plus power, plus endurance) is still a controversy is just astonishing. Facepalm-worthy, really.

To the OP: don't lose hope. Keep searching for something you can do, and enjoy. Maybe it's some form of swimming. Maybe some form of rowing - on machines or on water (I once knew a guy who used to kayak to work). Maybe something unusual you haven't tried. Keep looking.

That's nice to read how you bounced back on own willpower and research.

With the risk of going more OT, but I would like to explain my history with orthopedic surgeons. I've had osteotomy to both upper legs. 20 degrees of malrotation plus some X-leg was corrected. Pre-op I had daily sore knees (to put it lightly) from just a light/regular day routine. That's gone now fortunately for ~3 years.

Unfortunately around the same time, medial knee symptoms started to appear (as well as a light variant of jumper's knee). It started in a period when I was walking quite a lot, probably too much for too long. Ironically it was when I was at a rehabilitation center. However at first they didn't want to recognize this as an issue, and waived it away as just some sore muscles from the increased physical effort. But it stuck along.

This year I went to the 3rd physiotherapist, that suspected I got a large Q angle which is probably a residual given my history. We worked on more strengthening and coordination exercises. Although performing exercises greatly improved, the symptoms only got worse after training (and dissipate with rest).

I'm not getting my hopes up for anything useful short-term when I visit my doctors again later this year. I suspect they either focus on the Q angle (there is some residual in lower leg), or can't find anything at all. Either way, finding a way to get more into shape without a cure worse than the problem is key for me to sustain it. Since I've stopped training, I do recognize that my energy levels has dropped.

I think it's similar to a dieting; you don't want to make the scheme so strict that it feels like a punishment. It must become a new balance in your week schedule at some point.

You can try to swim mostly with your arms. You can also keep one leg still and switch between legs to reduce strain on your knees.
How about cycling? Or if that's too hard on the knees, then you could try rowing/

Also, talk about about swimming, without using your legs (you can put a float between them to start with, before your arms a strong enough to go alone) with your physiotherapist. 
Maybe take a look at isometrics, you load but with little to no movement. Used to do them when stuck in the car between classes.
Plenty of stuff you can do.
Swimming or water polo.
Rowing
Reformer Pilates
Overhead ladder based stuff at the gym, and almost any gym workout that doesn't involve the knees much. A simple cable machine could workout almost your entire body.

Out of the choices given, I think I should try swimming first, but should talk with my physiotherapist again if breaststroke is a good idea. I've also read about aquajogging, maybe worth trying out.

I can say that light cycling for a few km is usually fine. Walking 1-2km tops at the moment. I'm not sure if rowing is a good idea, as it's a repetitive bending motion. Maybe worth trying out later on.

I've tried isometric training with at the rehalibitation center and I didn't really see much benefits. But given their ignorance maybe it's worth retrying it.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2018, 09:31:29 pm by hans »
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2018, 10:34:37 pm »
Consistency is the key. I've talked about changing habits before and this is part of that.
And what do you consider to be good habits? In my opinion bad ones include: calorie counting, restricting, as well as just picking up the nearest high energy snack, such as a chocolate bar, are equally bad. In the past, they've made me fatter, rather than leaner.
IMHO counting calories is a good thing to do because it makes you aware of what eating habits you need to change. Rushing things and being obsessive about losing weight isn't good and very likely to fail. You have to make long term adjustments to your eating habits even though saying no to pie and ice cream is hard.
I agree about being aware of the energy density of foods and your requirements. The problem with following a restricted calorie diet is, it's very unnatural. Measuring everything and looking at the labels is just a pain. Another issue is people's energy requirements , i.e. their basil metabolic rate, vary dramatically and can't be easily determined by weight and height calculations, so how much one should be eating is difficult to predict. If your BMR is only 100Kcal different from what the calculations predict, then you'll theoretically lose or gain a lot of weight, over the long term, by sticking to that diet, although in reality, your body will adjust somewhat, to prevent it.

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Having some physical exercise is good no matter what but if you have a lot of overweight then swimming is probably the best way because this doesn't strain your leg joints that much. Cycling could be a good option as well.
I agree, doing lots of impact work, if you're carring too much weight isn't good. I agree with you about swimming. I suppose I also chose cycling because I've had problems with my knee joints in the past, but in my case, that could have been malnutrition, just as much as jogging.

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Yes, BMI is just a rough indicator. My BMI is just over the 24 mark, but that rope would have 8cm of slack. Actually the ratio between waist and height is also quite rough, better than BMI, but still not perfect. The waist to hip ratio is a better measurement. Mine is a healthy 0.85. I used to be over 1, before I started cycling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waist%E2%80%93hip_ratio#Indicator_of_health
Well it seems I have more work-out to do.
Sorry if I made you feel bad.

I think we're mostly agreeing. You seem very hesitant to monitor calories because you've gotten yourself in trouble with that in the past. It is a valid strategy and what most proper dietitians and doctors use. It works very well for a huge amount of people. There is indeed a risk that people lose themselves or overdo it. Obsessing over calories is obviously not the way to go and depriving yourself to the point that you're compensating with unhealthy foods isn't either. However, awareness of what you eat and what it means for your body is helpful. A lot of people don't have a clue what the stinkers are and that's what calorie counting helps with. Just make sure to treat it like a tool and not like a religion.
The trouble is it didn't happen all in one go. I've struggled with my weight for a long time. Looking back I had issues with disordered eating, long before it became clinically diagnosable. The striking thing is it wasn't the disordered eating, which was initially responsible for the weight gain, but attempts to lose weight, which resulted in disordered eating. Later more weight gain came, as a result of the eating disorder, but that's a different story.

It I told a doctor, what I was doing to lose weight at the start, they probably would have given me plenty of encouragement, because it's the recommended dietary advice for weight loss. What concerns me is I've met people who are trying to lose weight and many of them seem to be experiencing the symptoms of an eating disorder, just not to the extent where it's clinically diagnosable or having a significant impact on their well-being. I don't want others to make the same mistake as me!

Recovery for me involved seeing a counsellor, dietician, who both advised me to cease any attempts at controlling my weight and relearning to listen to my appetite signal. My weight fluctuated for a bit, before settling at a "too fat" level for a couple of years. This wasn't healthy but it was certainly less unhealthy than having an eating disorder, which had a much higher mortality rate, than just being a bit overweight. Later on I discovered, by accident, that exercise would bring my weight back down to a healthy level. It was not intentional. I originally started pedal cycling to work because it was easier and safer than my motorbike. The weight came off and now I'm very fit and healthy.

Now I'm aware that there's also a link between excessive exercise and disordered eating and it was even a part of my eating disorder: I used to run excessively! I'm monitoring the situation, mindful of the signs of relapse or exercise obsession.

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Exercise should be part of maintaining a healthy weight, because your body simply functions better when you do. It can also help with the balance of energy, but people should be very aware it's essentially impossible to get to or maintain a healthy weight through exercise alone. The saying that losing weight is 80% diet and 20% exercise is fairly accurate. Exercise does support the moderation of energy intake in an excellent way and is a massive factor in your overall health, so exercise is always recommended.
Well I'm doing it quite well thank you. I think it's because I'm doing a lot of cardio. It's difficult to estimate the amount I actually burn. If I put the speed, distance and my statistics into one of those online calculators, I get about 600Kcal to 700kCal, but it's likely to be more than that, since it just takes my average speed. It doesn't take into account that I spend some time stopping, decelerating and accelerating, the effects of wind and hills. I'm well aware of the fact that, in theory all I need to do is eat little bit more extra with every meal and I could gain the weight back, but something is preventing that from happening: it's remained stable. I think my increased level of fitness has resulted in my body is managing its energy balance better than before.

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The appetite signal has served animals and mankind for millennia. The important difference is that during these millennia people and animals have have predominantly lived in food scarce situations. Most animals will keep eating while there's food. Humans have manipulated the world into a situation where food is essentially always available, so our appetite signal needs to adjust. We're more restrained than a lot of animals, but it's obvious we haven't adjusted to the new situation yet. We tend to prefer foods containing things that are quite rare in nature, like fat and sugar. Unfortunately the impulse to eat any of that we can find is hurting us now and refined foods sometimes mean we're attracted to foods that lack everything else that nature tries to get us to eat.
But the obesity epidemic has happened very recently. It wasn't a problem 100 years ago and there wasn't a widespread famine in most of the US and Europe back then. It also doesn't explain why some people are lean and others fat and self-control doesn't seem to be a significant factor.

Also what happens if we make people eat too much? How fat do they get? Well not that much, check out the opposite of the Minnesota starvation experiment, the The Vermont Prison Overfeeding Study.
http://idealbodyweights.blogspot.com/2009/08/vermont-prison-overfeeding-study.html

Even given a huge caloric surplus, people struggled to gain 20% over their initial starting weight. Clearly something else is going on here.
 

Offline thermistor-guy

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #80 on: June 20, 2018, 01:12:18 am »
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I think it's similar to a dieting; you don't want to make the scheme so strict that it feels like a punishment. It must become a new balance in your week schedule at some point.
...

Exactly right. The goal is to improve your life, not make it worse.

When I make changes, I make them gradually, usually one at a time, and assess how I am adapting. What complicates it is sometimes you feel a little worse, temporarily, before you feel better. Physiotherapy and yoga can be like that.

...
Out of the choices given, I think I should try swimming first, but should talk with my physiotherapist again if breaststroke is a good idea. I've also read about aquajogging, maybe worth trying out.

I can say that light cycling for a few km is usually fine. Walking 1-2km tops at the moment. I'm not sure if rowing is a good idea, as it's a repetitive bending motion. Maybe worth trying out later on.

I've tried isometric training with at the rehalibitation center and I didn't really see much benefits. But given their ignorance maybe it's worth retrying it.

Some people enjoy working out in water. In one case that I know, an overweight middle-aged woman was ordered by her surgeon to undergo water-based rehab exercises, otherwise he wouldn't operate on her leg. She came to like the workouts so much, she turned into a fitness enthusiast - a complete turnaround.

Gymnasts do a lot of isometric training, especially near the end ranges of motion (fully flexed, fully extended). It can build serious strength. The risk to connective tissue is high if you are not prepared for it, or if you try to progress too far too soon. That's a problem because connective tissue injuries can take a long time to heal.

I lucked out because I found some activities that I could manage and enjoy. Cycling initially was a little uncomfortable, so I did it once a week only, with moderate intensity, and let my knee adapt. The setup and my position on the bike mattered. With the bike set up one way (seat/ handlebar position and height), my quads seemed to be doing most of the work, and my knee protested more. Set up another way, my glutes took on more of the load (which they should), and I felt more comfortable. Cycling forums go into exhaustive detail about this, in pursuit of maximum power output and efficiency.

Keep searching for what works for you. Good luck.
 
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Offline Audioguru

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Re: do you work out?
« Reply #81 on: June 20, 2018, 02:31:29 am »
I am almost 73 years old and have never been fat. I was an athlete in my teens then I did not exercise until after a heart attack 9 years ago. I nearly died but the doctor opened two blocked heart arteries. Now I do not drink alcohol or smoke anymore and I eat less cholesterol. Mild medications reduce my blood pressure and cholesterol and thin my blood. I ride a bicycle, run and walk every day. Now I am so healthy I feel like I am in my 30ies.
 
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