Author Topic: Tariff Watch  (Read 9433 times)

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Offline calexanian

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Tariff Watch
« on: July 06, 2018, 05:13:08 pm »
Here is the link to the USTR.GOV list of items included in the new %25 china import tariff. Most of the specific electronics stuff is in the middle, to end portion. Passives like MLCC, resistors, etc, are specifically included. Most PCB's will fall into one of these categories as well. Something of note is how finished consumer goods like phones and such are not included. Apple Samsung and the like I am sure lobbied to keep them out and us small manufacturers get screwed.

I am now searching for companies who have caps and resistors that do not touch china. There are several in Thailand I am looking into now.

Please post if you have any legitimate encounters with this new dumb tariff or ways around it.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/301Investigations/List%201.pdf#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/301Investigations/List%201.pdf%22,%22target%22:%22_blank%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22U.S.%20tariffs%20on%20Chinese%20goods%22%7D
Charles Alexanian
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Online Gribo

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 07:03:23 pm »
I should have imported that reactor earlier. Damn.  |O
 

Offline ProBang2

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 07:12:32 pm »
I should have imported that reactor earlier. Damn.  |O

To Canada? There are problems, too?  :o  :wtf:  :o

(Occupied by South Canada???)
 

Online Gribo

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 08:08:01 pm »
Counter tariffs will take place. Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 08:20:44 pm »
How much percent are passives worth on your board? A few %? If so, who cares about the 25% upon a few %?
As for PCBs, does US government provide tax deduction for US-made or originated parts?
I know that in China, we have a tax deduction system -- you can import a product made in US, and if you can provide proof that certain value on the board is made in China, that part can be deducted from tax, providing you have an import/export license. If not, you have to pay tax for the entire FOB value.

Also, if Trump prefers everything made in China instead of PCBAs made in China, considering the low labor cost, why can't you create a Chinese branch and stuff boards to enclosures in China and supervise the QC "in-house" in China, and import the finished goods to circumvent the 25%?

If Trump's new rule really goes well, I will expect Chinese PCBA houses will soon start to offer PCBA-to-enclosure and packaging/shipping service to take advantage of the 25% remission.

Or, you can import bare PCBs from China, and stuff the parts in other low wage areas like Vietnam or SEA or Mexico, then import the finished PCBA to US, also to get rid of the 25%.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 08:28:18 pm by blueskull »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 08:24:06 pm »
Counter tariffs will take place. Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.

Are you guys plotting to invade US?
 

Offline Zero999

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2018, 08:40:55 pm »
This has been discussed before, yes it's silly how the US are shooting themselves in the foot. It's all political and will only cause job losses.
 

Offline Seph.b

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2018, 09:12:56 pm »
Counter tariffs will take place. Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.

Are you guys plotting to invade US?

I still say "54°40' or Fight".
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2018, 09:15:39 pm »
Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.
Everything in and from South Canada is always becoming more and more expansive.
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2018, 09:42:14 pm »
As long as Canada imposes a 270% tariff on US dairy products, I would shut down the border completely.  Nothing in, nothing out!

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/a-guide-to-understanding-the-dairy-dispute-between-the-us-andcanada/article34802291/

NAFTA is a joke!  There's nothing "Free" about that tariff.

 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2018, 09:44:32 pm »
this could be interesting.  if the cost of Chinese electronics go's up  :(
Hobby of evil genius      basic knowledge of electronics
 

Online rstofer

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 10:42:19 pm »
this could be interesting.  if the cost of Chinese electronics go's up  :(

Why is this a concern?  For the consumer, it is a price vs necessity tradeoff.  Just how bad do I need that bit of electronics?  Besides, a lot our electronics comes from South Korea; Samsung is a huge player here.

I don't know how it will affect Apple but that isn't high on my list of concerns.  Walmart will have a problem at some point.  When the $750B proposed tariffs come in, instead of $85B, then maybe China will get the message on Intellectual Property Rights and tariff free trading.  Or not...

China needs to sell to support their economy.  We don't need to buy.  That's why Trump figures that in the long haul we will get what we want.  The customer is always right!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2018, 10:51:09 pm by rstofer »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2018, 01:36:31 am »
China needs to sell to support their economy.  We don't need to buy.

Correct in a free market, not correct in China. Chinese government has absolute power in China, and as long as China can sell even a little bit to EU or SEA that Chinese workers can have food to eat, Chinese people will not fight their gov't.
On the other hand, those people who owns the country, those big capitalists and politicians, have the OBOR orders to export to middle east, EU and Africa to keep their factories running and money coming in.
The real problem for China is import sanction, not export sanction, which is hard to press on. The West will give Chinese gov't a very good reason to "liberate" Taiwan if they put high tech import sanction on China.
 

Offline Nominal Animal

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2018, 02:26:42 am »
China needs to sell to support their economy.  We don't need to buy.
Correct in a free market, not correct in China.
There is no free market on this planet anyway.  Nobody knows the actual rules even the big economies go by, because they're constantly being tweaked by players who wish to gain in the short term, and do not care about even catastrophic effects if they think there is a chance they could get away with it.

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Offline JohnnyMalaria

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2018, 02:32:39 am »
We don't need to buy.

Yes we do. There are things available from China that do not exist in any similar form from a US manufacturer. Case in point: 4-channel 100MHz DDS ready to go - USB/serial etc etc. $100. Nearest off-the-shelf plug-and-play/turn key option from the US that would meet my specification? $4000. Size of the Chinese device - fits in the palm of your hand. Size of the US device - 3U instrument case.

Of course, the increase in price for a $100 item is manageable. If the same item was manufactured in the US then I'd buy it even at twice the price.

US industry continues to shoot itself in the foot. It's like the car industry. It bitched and moaned in the 60's and 70's about the trade deficit with Japan regarding car sales. "Not fair! Not fair!" Someone eventually decided to understand why. The reason? US manufacturers refused to invest in the plant required to make...drum roll..right-hand drive cars - and they wondered why the Japanese didn't want them (plus the fact the quality of the US cars was utter shite).  :palm:
Tell me it can't be done and I'll do it. Or give it a damned good try.
 

Offline CatalinaWOW

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #15 on: July 07, 2018, 02:44:26 am »
There are some rules that can be derived from reading these discussions.

1.  Existing tariffs=good.  New tariffs=bad.   No one discusses why this is.  There are many, many tariffs in place.  How did world trade survive in their presence.  Why are the new ones bad.

2.  Tariffs on things I don't buy=non issue.  Tariffs on things I buy=end of the world.  Apparently people on this forum are economically disconnected from everyone else.

3.  My country is the injured party.  Played by everyone.

4.  My country's rational, measured and targeted response will result in exactly what I want.  As demonstrated by each countries exact conformance to the predicted response.  ;).

I really don't think the members of this forum are going to do better than the world leaders who actually have access to the controls of this machine.  Unfortunately the evidence is that we would do no worse.
 
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Offline boB

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2018, 04:55:44 am »


I don't know how it will affect Apple but that isn't high on my list of concerns. 

Me neither.   But Apple will be just fine because people sell their pets and their animals to afford their stuff.

boB
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Offline boB

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #17 on: July 07, 2018, 05:06:25 am »
We don't need to buy.

Yes we do. There are things available from China that do not exist in any similar form from a US manufacturer. Case in point: 4-channel 100MHz DDS ready to go - USB/serial etc etc. $100. Nearest off-the-shelf plug-and-play/turn key option from the US that would meet my specification? $4000. Size of the Chinese device - fits in the palm of your hand. Size of the US device - 3U instrument case.

Of course, the increase in price for a $100 item is manageable. If the same item was manufactured in the US then I'd buy it even at twice the price.

US industry continues to shoot itself in the foot. It's like the car industry. It bitched and moaned in the 60's and 70's about the trade deficit with Japan regarding car sales. "Not fair! Not fair!" Someone eventually decided to understand why. The reason? US manufacturers refused to invest in the plant required to make...drum roll..right-hand drive cars - and they wondered why the Japanese didn't want them (plus the fact the quality of the US cars was utter shite).  :palm:

We  (US) absolutely DO need to buy from China and other countries !  For several reasons but this is only part of my list...

I am part owner in a US company that manufactures electronic products for the alternative energy industry and employ around 75 people doing this, in the US.  SMT and assembly and all that.  We buy parts that would not be obtainable in the US at least with the better quality that we require as well as price.  ICs, electrolytic capacitors, aluminum castings, custom plastic parts, etc.  We get whatever we can locally including sheet metal.  Even sheet metal prices have gone WAY up recently. We don't see much, if any good coming from this trade war.  It has not, in our opinion been thought out properly.  It will hurt everybody at least in the short term.  Except maybe for the US government which will take the money and squander it.

boB
K7IQ



« Last Edit: July 07, 2018, 05:08:10 am by boB »
K7IQ
 

Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2018, 05:32:18 am »
We don't see much, if any good coming from this trade war.  It has not, in our opinion been thought out properly.

That may be understatement of the year :) Trump doesn't think at all, he reacts with his gut by self admission. Like other populist demagogues, he sells his supporters a lie they want to believe. That is the same as most career politicians, the difference is that Trump seems to truly believe his own nonsense and conspiracy theories, career politicians know they must promise one thing to get elected but can only deliver something different when in power.

This trade war will be a complete failure, and probably have the reverse effect that is intended. China will be more determined to be self-sufficient rather than put trust in unreliable partners.
Bob
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Offline Delta

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2018, 06:21:09 am »

1.  Existing tariffs=good.  New tariffs=bad.   No one discusses why this is. 

That, Sir, is an absolutely bloody brilliant statement, and one I have not considered before.

It perfectly describes some of the arguments going on here in the UK regarding leaving the EU. "OMG, it would be terrible if we have to pay tarrifs on stuff we import from the continent!" - "oh yeah, we currently have to pay EU tarrifs on stuff we import from the rest of the world, but that's fine."
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2018, 06:48:48 am »
China will be more determined to be self-sufficient rather than put trust in unreliable partners.

It's the survival of Chinese government. Look at history, 1989 Tiananmen Square Incident, partially accelerated the forming of Wassenaar Agreement in late 90s and the exclusion of China in WA. In the 90s, artillery attack on Kingmon, Taiwan, China received export/import sanction. Late 90s, Chinese government's persecution of Falungong, resulted in trade and media sanctions. Mid 2000s, China rolled Anti Separation Law against Taiwan, again, received high tech sanction.

In other words, if China wants absolute dictatorship in greater China region, China has to clone western technology and  sustain domestic needs independently, that's the only way Chinese government can get around with dictatorship without having to fear the West to export democracy to China.

China tried to play well and be just a world factory in the late 80s and early 90s, unfortunately the West insisted on exporting democracy to China. If the West, particularly US, doesn't care about politics in China and keeps a pure business relationship with China, China won't have to clone western technology in the first place.
 
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Offline a59d1

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2018, 07:08:07 am »
Tariffs only work if you're the only party that can enact them. Since the real world allows all parties to enact reactionary tariffs, the only possible outcome is lower efficiency and higher costs.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2018, 07:29:10 am »
Tariffs only work if you're the only party that can enact them. Since the real world allows all parties to enact reactionary tariffs, the only possible outcome is lower efficiency and higher costs.

Yup. Essentially all governments involved are introducing additional taxes, to be paid by importers and eventually consumers. The governments can then use that money for subsidies, to compensate the importers for their increased costs of goods...  ::)
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2018, 07:37:35 am »
Tariffs only work if you're the only party that can enact them. Since the real world allows all parties to enact reactionary tariffs, the only possible outcome is lower efficiency and higher costs.

Yup. Essentially all governments involved are introducing additional taxes, to be paid by importers and eventually consumers. The governments can then use that money for subsidies, to compensate the importers for their increased costs of goods...  ::)

And in the meanwhile, target certain corporation for supporting. Good scheme of state level corruption.
 

Offline shteii01

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Re: Tariff Watch
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2018, 07:41:57 pm »
There will not be trade war.
Chinese government needs to feed its people by importing food from other countries.  US is one of the major exporters of food to China.  Even if China reduces its food purchases from US, other countries don't have the food to supply China completely, so those other countries will buy from US and sell to China.  China will pay premium either way.

A couple of weeks ago on the radio in the business news they reported that even though Mexico put tariffs on US pork, the sales of pork to Mexico were 5% higher than last year.  I mentioned it to my dad, he said they probably reselling it to China.
 


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