Tariff Watch

[calexanian]

Here is the link to the USTR.GOV list of items included in the new %25 china import tariff. Most of the specific electronics stuff is in the middle, to end portion. Passives like MLCC, resistors, etc, are specifically included. Most PCB's will fall into one of these categories as well. Something of note is how finished consumer goods like phones and such are not included. Apple Samsung and the like I am sure lobbied to keep them out and us small manufacturers get screwed.

I am now searching for companies who have caps and resistors that do not touch china. There are several in Thailand I am looking into now.

Please post if you have any legitimate encounters with this new dumb tariff or ways around it.

https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/301Investigations/List%201.pdf#link=%7B%22role%22:%22standard%22,%22href%22:%22https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/enforcement/301Investigations/List%201.pdf%22,%22target%22:%22_blank%22,%22absolute%22:%22%22,%22linkText%22:%22U.S.%20tariffs%20on%20Chinese%20goods%22%7D

[Gribo]

I should have imported that reactor earlier. Damn. 

[ProBang2]

I should have imported that reactor earlier. Damn. 

To Canada? There are problems, too?     

(Occupied by South Canada???)

[Gribo]

Counter tariffs will take place. Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.

[Zero999]

This has been discussed before, yes it's silly how the US are shooting themselves in the foot. It's all political and will only cause job losses.

[Seph.b]

Counter tariffs will take place. Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.

Are you guys plotting to invade US?

I still say "54°40' or Fight".

[Nominal Animal]

Everything from South Canada will become more expansive.

Everything in and from South Canada is always becoming more and more expansive.

[rstofer]

As long as Canada imposes a 270% tariff on US dairy products, I would shut down the border completely.  Nothing in, nothing out!

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/a-guide-to-understanding-the-dairy-dispute-between-the-us-andcanada/article34802291/

NAFTA is a joke!  There's nothing "Free" about that tariff.

[jonovid]

this could be interesting.  if the cost of Chinese electronics go's up 

[rstofer]

this could be interesting.  if the cost of Chinese electronics go's up 

Why is this a concern?  For the consumer, it is a price vs necessity tradeoff.  Just how bad do I need that bit of electronics?  Besides, a lot our electronics comes from South Korea; Samsung is a huge player here.

I don't know how it will affect Apple but that isn't high on my list of concerns.  Walmart will have a problem at some point.  When the $750B proposed tariffs come in, instead of $85B, then maybe China will get the message on Intellectual Property Rights and tariff free trading.  Or not...

China needs to sell to support their economy.  We don't need to buy.  That's why Trump figures that in the long haul we will get what we want.  The customer is always right!

[Nominal Animal]

China needs to sell to support their economy.  We don't need to buy.

Correct in a free market, not correct in China.

There is no free market on this planet anyway.  Nobody knows the actual rules even the big economies go by, because they're constantly being tweaked by players who wish to gain in the short term, and do not care about even catastrophic effects if they think there is a chance they could get away with it.

my license plate is SIGSEGV

I use public transport. Fortunately, it is excellent here, and SIGBUS is rare.

[JohnnyMalaria]

We don't need to buy.

Yes we do. There are things available from China that do not exist in any similar form from a US manufacturer. Case in point: 4-channel 100MHz DDS ready to go - USB/serial etc etc. $100. Nearest off-the-shelf plug-and-play/turn key option from the US that would meet my specification? $4000. Size of the Chinese device - fits in the palm of your hand. Size of the US device - 3U instrument case.

Of course, the increase in price for a $100 item is manageable. If the same item was manufactured in the US then I'd buy it even at twice the price.

US industry continues to shoot itself in the foot. It's like the car industry. It bitched and moaned in the 60's and 70's about the trade deficit with Japan regarding car sales. "Not fair! Not fair!" Someone eventually decided to understand why. The reason? US manufacturers refused to invest in the plant required to make...drum roll..right-hand drive cars - and they wondered why the Japanese didn't want them (plus the fact the quality of the US cars was utter shite). 

[CatalinaWOW]

There are some rules that can be derived from reading these discussions.

1.  Existing tariffs=good.  New tariffs=bad.   No one discusses why this is.  There are many, many tariffs in place.  How did world trade survive in their presence.  Why are the new ones bad.

2.  Tariffs on things I don't buy=non issue.  Tariffs on things I buy=end of the world.  Apparently people on this forum are economically disconnected from everyone else.

3.  My country is the injured party.  Played by everyone.

4.  My country's rational, measured and targeted response will result in exactly what I want.  As demonstrated by each countries exact conformance to the predicted response.  .

I really don't think the members of this forum are going to do better than the world leaders who actually have access to the controls of this machine.  Unfortunately the evidence is that we would do no worse.

[boB]

I don't know how it will affect Apple but that isn't high on my list of concerns. 

Me neither.   But Apple will be just fine because people sell their pets and their animals to afford their stuff.

boB

[boB]

We don't need to buy.

Yes we do. There are things available from China that do not exist in any similar form from a US manufacturer. Case in point: 4-channel 100MHz DDS ready to go - USB/serial etc etc. $100. Nearest off-the-shelf plug-and-play/turn key option from the US that would meet my specification? $4000. Size of the Chinese device - fits in the palm of your hand. Size of the US device - 3U instrument case.

Of course, the increase in price for a $100 item is manageable. If the same item was manufactured in the US then I'd buy it even at twice the price.

US industry continues to shoot itself in the foot. It's like the car industry. It bitched and moaned in the 60's and 70's about the trade deficit with Japan regarding car sales. "Not fair! Not fair!" Someone eventually decided to understand why. The reason? US manufacturers refused to invest in the plant required to make...drum roll..right-hand drive cars - and they wondered why the Japanese didn't want them (plus the fact the quality of the US cars was utter shite). 

We  (US) absolutely DO need to buy from China and other countries !  For several reasons but this is only part of my list...

I am part owner in a US company that manufactures electronic products for the alternative energy industry and employ around 75 people doing this, in the US.  SMT and assembly and all that.  We buy parts that would not be obtainable in the US at least with the better quality that we require as well as price.  ICs, electrolytic capacitors, aluminum castings, custom plastic parts, etc.  We get whatever we can locally including sheet metal.  Even sheet metal prices have gone WAY up recently. We don't see much, if any good coming from this trade war.  It has not, in our opinion been thought out properly.  It will hurt everybody at least in the short term.  Except maybe for the US government which will take the money and squander it.

boB
K7IQ

[donotdespisethesnake]

We don't see much, if any good coming from this trade war.  It has not, in our opinion been thought out properly.

That may be understatement of the year Trump doesn't think at all, he reacts with his gut by self admission. Like other populist demagogues, he sells his supporters a lie they want to believe. That is the same as most career politicians, the difference is that Trump seems to truly believe his own nonsense and conspiracy theories, career politicians know they must promise one thing to get elected but can only deliver something different when in power.

This trade war will be a complete failure, and probably have the reverse effect that is intended. China will be more determined to be self-sufficient rather than put trust in unreliable partners.

[Delta]

1.  Existing tariffs=good.  New tariffs=bad.   No one discusses why this is. 

That, Sir, is an absolutely bloody brilliant statement, and one I have not considered before.

It perfectly describes some of the arguments going on here in the UK regarding leaving the EU. "OMG, it would be terrible if we have to pay tarrifs on stuff we import from the continent!" - "oh yeah, we currently have to pay EU tarrifs on stuff we import from the rest of the world, but that's fine."

[a59d1]

Tariffs only work if you're the only party that can enact them. Since the real world allows all parties to enact reactionary tariffs, the only possible outcome is lower efficiency and higher costs.

[ebastler]

Tariffs only work if you're the only party that can enact them. Since the real world allows all parties to enact reactionary tariffs, the only possible outcome is lower efficiency and higher costs.

Yup. Essentially all governments involved are introducing additional taxes, to be paid by importers and eventually consumers. The governments can then use that money for subsidies, to compensate the importers for their increased costs of goods... 

[shteii01]

There will not be trade war.
Chinese government needs to feed its people by importing food from other countries.  US is one of the major exporters of food to China.  Even if China reduces its food purchases from US, other countries don't have the food to supply China completely, so those other countries will buy from US and sell to China.  China will pay premium either way.

A couple of weeks ago on the radio in the business news they reported that even though Mexico put tariffs on US pork, the sales of pork to Mexico were 5% higher than last year.  I mentioned it to my dad, he said they probably reselling it to China.

[VK5RC]

Tariffs at the Port of entry are just one factor, many countries 'support' their own industry - directly through farm/mine/factory subsidies, or indirectly through state sponsored research, fuel/energy rebates etc. Playing with the international exchange rate is also a classic way of introducing a non-level playing field.
I can't think of a country's government that doesn't 'play games' - but that is what they are voted (mostly) in to do!

[calexanian]

For many products the BOM may be over 30% of the total cost of the device and most parts come from China. There is NO tax deductions for using U.S. sourced parts, and in most cases we no longer have the capacity to produce the parts here. for our company this equates to a 10% increase in cost, on top of the increase in steel cost implemented 6 months ago. we will have to adsorb a 12% cost increase net on our product for the rest of the year. Not many hardware companies have the margins to do that. If we had a thriving parts and pcb production industry we could source from that fell in the price gap of current chinese parts plus the 25% fee it would make sense, but we do not. All this will do is force manufacturers to buy from china and pay the fee to the government lessening our ability to compete internationally.

[calexanian]

same here.

[Zero999]

1.  Existing tariffs=good.  New tariffs=bad.   No one discusses why this is. 

That, Sir, is an absolutely bloody brilliant statement, and one I have not considered before.

It perfectly describes some of the arguments going on here in the UK regarding leaving the EU. "OMG, it would be terrible if we have to pay tarrifs on stuff we import from the continent!" - "oh yeah, we currently have to pay EU tarrifs on stuff we import from the rest of the world, but that's fine."

That's a valid question. I suppose existing tariffs aren't so bad, because the status quo is known and new tariffs result in uncertainty which is bad for business.

As far as brexit is concerned: a similar principle applies but extra tariffs with the UK's largest trading partners are seen as worse than potentially lower ones from other countries.

[all_repair]

Existing tariff is bad, new tariff is worse not because old tariff is good.  It is because new tariff means more tariff, so more tariff is worse than less tariff.