EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: GreyWoolfe on April 06, 2016, 11:59:33 am
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I am asking this as I was asked to teach another basic soldering class for my ham radio club. Among those interested is a family with 4 young children, 3 of them hams. I believe at least 2 or 3 are under the age of 10, the youngest, I think, is around 6-7 and none of them teenagers. This makes me nervous as this will be a club function and I don't want to run into legal issues if any of the children hurt themselves. The club does have liability insurance, but I don't want to be the one using it.
I am asking for a general opinion. What is the youngest age you would be willing to teach to solder? Having never taught children to solder, I don't know that I would be comfortable teaching anyone under the age of 16. I would like to think that by then they should have decent motor skills and at least a modicum of self control to be serious about safety.
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I started learning to solder when I was about 8 years old. Cheap soldering iron. Soldered together the parts for a crystal radio. My Dad was patient, but, in retrospect, not very skilled. Most of his soldering experience was sweating copper pipe with a propane torch.
I started learning to run an oxyacetylene torch when I was 13. Ditto for arc welding,
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I was thought to solder when I was 8 or 9 years old. IMHO it highly depends on the individual kid you are trying to teach. I did quite some youth club training of kids
<< 10 years old and it typically just works. Make sure you have a proper ratio of teachers versus pupils, in my experience they can quicky 'overrun' you otherwise :scared:
As for legal: lawyers are a pest to humanity |O
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I think if they try to use the iron as a soother, it's probably a little early.
I think i probably got my first iron at 10/11 or something, maybe it was younger, I can't remember my past all that well, but it's only because I got it from some relatives, and I didn't really get much support or interest in my hobby from my parent.
Changes are she probably didn't know where to find one either though.
Ah the joys of being self taught.
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I taught my stepson at age 10. No problem however prepare them for the danger.
My first lesson: "did you ever burn yourself on hot boiling water"? Do you know how that hurts?
Then look at this <put a hot solderiron at a wetspunge and let is sizzle wildly> "this iron is three to four times hotter then boiling water so never touch the hot end or it will hurt bad.
Make sure you have solder irons with large enough and good colored handles and proper holders, not the fancy smd ones where an accident can happen easily.
My son was darn proud on his first led dice pcb, showed it to everyone. That's why you want to do it ;)
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I taught my stepson at age 10. No problem however prepare them for the danger.
My first lesson: "did you ever burn yourself on hot boiling water"? Do you know how that hurts?
Then look at this <put a hot solderiron at a wetspunge and let is sizzle wildly> "this iron is three to four times hotter then boiling water so never touch the hot end or it will hurt bad.
Make sure you have solder irons with large enough and good colored handles and proper holders, not the fancy smd ones where an accident can happen easily.
My son was darn proud on his first led dice pcb, showed it to everyone. That's why you want to do it ;)
Holders? We don't need no stankin holders. You just let it rest on the desk and have to be real careful not to knock the cord lol. I switched to soldering on the floor with some comfortable pillows for that reason XD
It was one of those shitty direct wall plug ones too.
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It depends on the degree of supervision you can give. I have recently taught my eight year old grandson however there were a couple of occasions where I had to grab his hand to stop him burning him self. You cant give this degree of supervision for a group.
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I was 6 or 7.
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In school at age 10 (IIRC, many years ago), we were using Bunsen burners, heating stuff in test tubes, melting and drawing glass rods and tubes etc. However the class size was small, the supervision was close, the teacher had many years of formal teaching experience, and, back then it was a far less litigatious society.
With eye protection, and appropriate clothing (no synthetic fibre outerwear, long sleeves & trousers) the risk of serious injury is low, but you cannot reduce the risk of a burn requiring hospital treatment to zero.
IANAL, but would think it reasonable to require a written acceptance of the risk assessment from parents of children under 16, and if they themselves don't solder, they should be taught beforehand so they can give informed consent.
What the cut-off age should be is a very difficult question. Some children shouldn't be allowed to handle hot, or sharp objects, poisons or power tools until they are full adults, and even then should be discouraged! Others are fine at a much younger age. Maybe consult a local junior school science teacher to find out what age they start working with concentrated heat sources and high temperatures?
As its an introductory/basics class, IMHO it would be entirely reasonable to require 1:1 supervision from a parent who has already taken the course or demonstrated competency, to allow under 16s to attend.
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The chances of an avoidable accident will depend on why each individual is there, and on the pupil-teacher ratio.
I notice that when the local boy scouts are given flying lessons, some are extremely responsible and well behaved, and some aren't. The latter seem uninterested in flying (i.e. along for the ride, ho ho) and start goofing off with each other.
Personally I'd want at least one supervisor for each soldering iron - however many kids share it. Often when people (of any age) are sharing a tool they will cooperate with each other and learn from each other.
You should, of course, check that any insurance does cover people of that age; some policies are only for "over 16" or whatever.
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Personally I'd want at least one supervisor for each soldering iron - however many kids share it. Often when people (of any age) are sharing a tool they will cooperate with each other and learn from each other.
You should, of course, check that any insurance does cover people of that age; some policies are only for "over 16" or whatever.
Two good points there. IMHO, it would be easier to have each iron watched like a hawk since it stays in one place.
The other is just a matter of prudence> If the insurance does NOT cover the activity and/or ages, whoever is in charge could end up personally liable.
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As for 'How young is too young?' - this is the best answer....
Some children shouldn't be allowed to handle hot, or sharp objects, poisons or power tools until they are full adults, and even then should be discouraged! Others are fine at a much younger age.
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I am asking for a general opinion. What is the youngest age you would be willing to teach to solder? Having never taught children to solder, I don't know that I would be comfortable teaching anyone under the age of 16. I would like to think that by then they should have decent motor skills and at least a modicum of self control to be serious about safety.
I was certainly much under the age of 16 when I first learned to solder. Age is secondary to intelligence and competence at any given task. Some children are smart and some children are dumb (just like adults!).
Here is a point of reference for illustration. Sylvia started doing these shows when she was eight:
https://youtu.be/9MH0mw-Lgi0
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I wouldn't do it. Not in America, the land of the lawyers.
Maybe you could require each child have a parent present and teach/demonstrate to the group as a whole, but have the parents actually instructing their children.
Double win, parent learns something too.
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I wouldn't do it. Not in America, the land of the lawyers.
That's a message we get loud and clear.
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When I was 11 we used machines in the school metalwork and woodwork shops, as part of the general curriculum, which could remove your arm. At what age do most people teach their children to cook on the kitchen hob? They have much greater risk of injury there, than using a soldering iron.
I learned to solder at about 8 or 9. At about 13 or 14 I designed and built my own all vacuum tube oscilloscope, with sections running at up to 500V, and the tube EHT running somewhat higher. My father was an electromechanical engineer, so he was very much aware of the risks involved in these things. He supervised me at first, and backed off when I showed enough competence.
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I was about 10. Growing up in an electronics manufacturing family business I would just to to an assembler and have them tin something for me. Usually involving sticking a couple wires together. At 10 dad said it was time for me to learn how to assemble. They started me off on single sided non solder masked boards on one of our more simple products. We had Ungar irons. They were so hot the tips would glow cherry red. By the time I worked my way up to doing the digital stuff I was 16 and we had upgraded to the weller WTCPT stations.
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I taught both my kids last year, one to one. I had to pop into Maplins with the kids for some overpriced item or other. They saw the kits available so got my son (9) a bug/robot thing and my daughter (7) a flashing led christmas tree. They both did well and took it seriously although I think one of them might have had a quick touch of the tip, doubt they would do it again though!
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I think one of them might have had a quick touch of the tip, doubt they would do it again though!
Everyone touches the hot end of a soldering iron when they first get to use one. How else will you find out how hot it is, and how likely it is to burn you?
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I think one of them might have had a quick touch of the tip, doubt they would do it again though!
Everyone touches the hot end of a soldering iron when they first get to use one. How else will you find out how hot it is, and how likely it is to burn you?
Some of us even still wipe excess solder off the bit with our thumbs.
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I suppose I was seven. I feel blessed at the lack of parental supervision growing up. My parents would be arrested today. I learned there were consequences, like ending up to my neck in cow shit by walking past the end of concrete of a barn. There is talk of de-safetyfying children's parks because they are not learning they can be injured when they fall.
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@ Seekonk
I love this Joan Rivers quote: "I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw that my bath toys were a toaster and a radio."
But seriously I agree with you. Children take much more responsibility when they realize "Hey it's now just upto myself" to make the right decisions. Then they can really advance in responsibility for that moment. Although you need to take care of their attention span. So don't make the activity too long.
I cannot suggest on your (the poster GreyWoolfe) legal safety. But I think a lot is possible with young children. Their attention and care for safety can really grow if you present the activity in a special way. Make the children feel privileged to this activity and agree with them that yes that thing does get really hot, and yes they can burn themselves badly. But if you can get them excited to go for a great looking outcome you can be surprised how well they perform. You can also ask the children directly to invest a significant amount of concentration for this activity. They will be feeling even more valued to join on this "grown-ups" activity. If you can make the activity very worthwhile to them you'll surround yourself by go-getter kids!
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FWIW, I was 8 when I first learned to solder with a firestick. What instruction I had, was one-on-one by my dad, so not the same situation you'd be facing.
Given how litigious society is these days however, I'd be too scared to attempt it in a group. Maybe, and I stress this point, I might be willing to teach a minor via a one-on-one situation, but not a group (I'd probably be too scared if I get the slightest chance to think about it before committing to it).
Now if you know the parents well, that may change matters significantly. ;)
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Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is, IMHO, a sure way for them to fail in some elements of their later life - and sometimes catastrophically. However, there is that duty of care that is every parent's responsibility.
My philosophy has been one of when they start climbing trees. When they first begin, you keep close and keep them low. When they slip, they will learn to be more careful and should they fall, the injuries will more likely be minor. As they progress, you step further away and let them go higher until you get to the point that you have enough confidence in their abilities to leave them to their own devices. After all - they will be going out on their own at some point and it's best they get a lot of practice managing things on their own before they do.
But seriously I agree with you. Children take much more responsibility when they realize "Hey it's now just upto myself" to make the right decisions. Then they can really advance in responsibility for that moment.
Indeed.
This was my approach when each of my kids learned to drive. I'd give a few pointers and suggestions - then make it very clear they were responsible for their actions. They didn't have to prove anything to me.
If you're going to put a soldering iron in the hands of an inexperienced person, such as a child, you are bound to have accidents. Just do your best to make sure the risks are managed and the degree of injury is likely to be minor.
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Wrapping kids up in cotton wool is, IMHO, a sure way for them to fail in some elements of their later life - and sometimes catastrophically. However, there is that duty of care that is every parent's responsibility.
My philosophy has been one of when they start climbing trees. When they first begin, you keep close and keep them low. When they slip, they will learn to be more careful and should they fall, the injuries will more likely be minor. As they progress, you step further away and let them go higher until you get to the point that you have enough confidence in their abilities to leave them to their own devices. After all - they will be going out on their own at some point and it's best they get a lot of practice managing things on their own before they do.
I encouraged my daughter to climb trees. I told her where to put hands and feet, and then she got a twinkle in her eye. I told her "yes, you can climb higher, but higher that that point and I'll help you but I'm not coming up to get you". She went higher and fet che had achieved something.
But seriously I agree with you. Children take much more responsibility when they realize "Hey it's now just upto myself" to make the right decisions. Then they can really advance in responsibility for that moment.
This was my approach when each of my kids learned to drive. I'd give a few pointers and suggestions - then make it very clear they were responsible for their actions. They didn't have to prove anything to me.
I taught her to drive around a car park, and, when she could reach the pedals, on the dead-end part of an airfield peritrack, after a day learning how to fly gliders. We also went backpacking in India when she was 12 and 14, which gave her the confidence to backpack around Australia on her own before university.
It was all for naught, of course: she still accused me of wrapping her in cotton wool. But eventually she admitted otherwise, after coming into contact with other people at university :)
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I am asking for a general opinion. What is the youngest age you would be willing to teach to solder? Having never taught children to solder, I don't know that I would be comfortable teaching anyone under the age of 16. I would like to think that by then they should have decent motor skills and at least a modicum of self control to be serious about safety.
Age is less of a concern IMO than difficulty of the soldered joint and for newbies it should be made as easy as possible.
Some years ago (15-20) our local intermediate schools (11-12 Yr olds) used this method for introduction to electronics; brass head paper clips through cardboard with components soldered directly to the brass head.
While a little tricky, it promotes good tinning practice and the joint is large enough for youngsters to easily see the process and whetting of solder to the component leads.
To start with too difficult joint is likely to discourage some and IMO that should be avoided.
Apply the KISS principle. ;)
But really any kid that turns up and is interested enough to "have a go" should never be held back.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/school-children-and-take-it-apart/?action=dlattach;attach=165227)
BTW, my daughter, now 30 did this ^
And how proud she was to show her dad. :-+
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I've taught a seven year old and all I did was check with his mother first that it was OK. He knows that it's a dangerous piece of equipment and that means he takes extra care.
Start them young!
https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.darc.de%2Fuploads%2Fmedia%2FJugendbasteln-ham-radio-2013-1.jpg&sp=60935d850893216956418e9232e434a0 (https://ixquick-proxy.com/do/spg/show_picture.pl?l=english&rais=1&oiu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.darc.de%2Fuploads%2Fmedia%2FJugendbasteln-ham-radio-2013-1.jpg&sp=60935d850893216956418e9232e434a0)
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I appreciate all the comments. I will have both parents there if I have the class. They can keep an eye on the children and try to keep them as safe as possible. All the children are quite mature for their ages so I think it might just work out.
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Test procedure:
Hand them an unpowered iron
Outcome:
They put it into their mouth
Conclusion:
They are too young.
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I'd think that around 9 or 10 should be adequate, with close supervision, but it really does depend on the child. I think I probably started around that age, but I honestly don't remember.
I stress, even with adults, that there are only two places that I EVER want to see that iron: 1. In the holder on the base, 2: In your hand soldering a joint together.
I'd also have them wearing eye protection. Not that soldering itself is particularly risky, though spatters of flux have been known to happen. But when trimming leads using side cutting pliers, I've seen small bits of metal go flying, and one of those in someone's eye would not be pleasant. You only get one set of eyes, and the penalty for not allowing them to last a lifetime is just too severe.
I'd probably have a bucket of icewater nearby, even though I wouldn't expect to need it. If someone does burn themselves, it's important to cool the affected area as quickly as possible.
I know a nine-year-old ham radio operator -- we went to a hamfest together. The hamfest had a station for soldering practice, where kids of all ages (no upper age limit) were welcome to solder together a simple kit, with supervision of experienced solderers. I asked the nine-year-old if he wanted to try it. He looked at me with big eyes, and said, "Are you crazy? No way am I going to risk burning myself with one of those things!"
I didn't push him into it. I suspect that, with such an attitude, he could be a competent and safe solderer when he decides he's ready.
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Test procedure:
Hand them an unpowered iron
Outcome:
They put it into their mouth
Conclusion:
They are too young.
:-DD
Reminds me of my youth; is that iron even on or hot yet? Spit, Spit fizzle fizzle
And later as a parent of toddlers petrified that one would touch the very hot cast iron log burner at my parents and after wondering how to ensure they'd never got too close I picked up one, wrapped their little hands in tight and walked them very close to the flue. That was more than enough heat for a youngster and from that day forth they walked the long way to get past the log burner. :D
But they couldn't identify whether the log fire was going or not, it didn't have a glass door so no flames to see, so what seemed like a bright idea at the time was for them to have a small spit at it, bubbling spit meant it was hot. :phew:
Oh shit, what had I done, thereafter anywhere we went that had a log fire the kids were lined up spitting at it to check if it might be hot. |O :palm:
Funny as hell now I look back and it won't be long until they have to train their own kids to recognise a hot log burner or as I dearly hope a hot soldering iron. :popcorn:
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Oh shit, what had I done, thereafter anywhere we went that had a log fire the kids were lined up spitting at it to check if it might be hot. |O :palm:
:-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD
At least the unintended consequences in this case were harmless and humorous! :-+
-Pat
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Looking back I was using those spring clips in the Electronic 101+ sets and also brass screws in wood when I was 6-7. I got to soldering with a dirty iron a year or so later, but got my Antex CS-25 from Maplin when I was 10. That was the equivalent of a Metcal station then :-DD
I think with supervision any infant should be ok, and by the time they are in secondary school leave them to their own devices ;)
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Looking back I was using those spring clips in the Electronic 101+ sets and also brass screws in wood when I was 6-7. I got to soldering with a dirty iron a year or so later, but got my Antex CS-25 from Maplin when I was 10. That was the equivalent of a Metcal station then :-DD
Ah, the same as me. My set was from Philips; I still have the instruction manual somewhere and probably some of the clips and a few transistors, and maybe a few resistors. Sad.
But the instruction manual was very good at presenting differing levels of knowlege, from "put this in that hole" to (for the more complex circuits) more information than I could understand. Good thing too - it acted as a gateway/path encouraging me to find out more.
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I miss my old Antex. All these solder stations don't have anything like the heat capacity of a proper mains driven iron.
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I miss my old Antex. All these solder stations don't have anything like the heat capacity of a proper mains driven iron.
I acquired one when my father inlaw passed a few years ago, I'd read much about them over the years and like you I'm impressed with it's thermal performance for only a 25W iron.
It's now my goto iron for any outside repairs as only a howling gale seems to worry it.
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For the normal work I have a Fahrenheit soldering station that's good enough for most jobs. For heavy soldering I have 'Thor' which is a 200W iron with heavy flex and its own custom designed stand that keeps the tip well away from the bench surface. This is a tool that demands respect but it sure gets the job done.
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I started soldering stuff at 8-10years maybe earlier who knows, golden fish has better memory than I do...
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A little perspective may be in order. At what age do you let them use a hatchet.
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Well, I had my own pocket knife by about age 5, after my Dad taught me to whittle. By 6 I was reloading shotgun shells (my Dad was a hunter safety instructor and we all belonged to the same rod & gun club) - granted it was an fully automated process, just move the in progress shell to each spot in sequence and pull the handle each time. But during the club's open house when they had various shotgun competitions (block shoots and clays, etc) - every shell fired in competition was one I personally loaded. Somewhere there is a picture of me sitting at the bench running it. For whatever reason, soldering came later for me. After my Dad passed when I was 9, my Mom still wouldn't let me solder by myself, she insisted on doing it all after I built up a project. Prior to me coming along, she worked in a factory building transformers, doing quite a bit of soldering. However, after the second or third time she managed to burn my fingers while I was holding a component in place, I finally said enough, just let me do it myself. I can burn myself just fine..
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Get a liability waiver form. Review with your lawyer to make sure it is good. Then have parents of children sign.
Make sure the parents understand the amount of heat involved and that touching means an instantaneous burn. Eyeball the children to make sure they are not 'wild', then teach away.
Groups in the US teach 6 year olds all the time.
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My father let me use his iron when I was 8. I'd already burned my nan's shed down before then so they let me play with matches.
First iron was an Antex firestick. I've got a 12v one somewhere. Handy as you can run it off a bench supply - only takes a couple of amps. It's definitely better than my Aoyue 968 was but nowhere near as good as the new weller one.
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Test procedure:
Hand them an unpowered iron
Outcome:
They put it into their mouth
Conclusion:
They are too young.
I still test to see if the iron is hot like that. Oh wait, did I just say that out loud? :-DD
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Be fully informed.
Top result for the google search "effect of lead on brain development" was this WHO web page http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs379/en/ (http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs379/en/)
I worked for a while in a lead remelt faclility. We crushed old car batteries to get the lead plates out and turned these plates back into lead in a furnace with a reducing atmosphere (I think).
Adult workers got regular blood tests and any whose lead level got too high were sent on leave until it dropped back to a safe level. The effect of lead is different for children at an age when their brains are still developing.
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I have been giving my kids stocking stuffers and other small projects that involve soldering since they were about 8.
With a bit of supervision, it's always gone smoothly.
Last year, my younger one (then 10) got a 8x8 LED scrolling LED matrix. Those 128 joints taught her proper technique, i.e. 3sec per joint and just the right amount of solder.
OTOH, I have had several projects (e.g. many of the cheap Velleman classics like the xmas tree) where I had to use some patch wire because trying to redo a joint 3 times led to the pad lifting and breaking the trace.
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I just bagged an Antex C15 soldering iron as my 45W Weller TCP eats SMD components for lunch.
I fully intend teaching my oldest two (9 and 12) how to solder with it as well.
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Why do you want to teach younguns how to solder? What do they have to solder? If it's in a wider electrical and electronic context why start with soldering and not some circuit theory, breadboarding...?
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Soldering covers more than just electronics.
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Why do you want to teach younguns how to solder? What do they have to solder? If it's in a wider electrical and electronic context why start with soldering and not some circuit theory, breadboarding...?
Because they want to learn how to make things that are more than toys.
Because it is a yet another new skill.
Because they will, literally and metaphorically, learn how to handle a dangerous tool.
Because they will learn personal responsibility for their actions.
Because they will learn how to develop a skill.
Because they will see that makers don't wear their pants over their trousers.
Because schoolfriends won't be taught it.
Because it won't be taught at school.
Because they will see that the world is made by the likes of thee and me, not Them.
Because doing things with your kids is important.
Because...
And - most importantly - because it is fun.
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I bought a little flashing LED Christmas tree kit a couple of years back and after ten minutes instruction (and plenty of warning) and a few practice joints my 8 year old daughter completed it. To be fair she is mad about crafting and very good with her hands, so it wasn't too surprising.
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Ar the Seattle Mini Maker fair last year DigiPen had a booth set up with a guy helping young kids solder a small PIC based random number generator board that they got to keep. My 7 and 9 year old boys loved it. Since then my 9 year old has been working on a digital clock kit.