Author Topic: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep  (Read 28745 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2017, 01:39:41 pm »
The problem is that the sort of crap sold in Vietnam and kills people WILL make it to the UK and other EU countries whose governments are willfully ignoring the problem. My local trading standards has been cut back, it is about to be cut back again, we might as well just give the country to a bunch of criminals... no wait????
 

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #126 on: November 24, 2017, 02:05:54 pm »
But now we are talking about mains connected electrical equipment, that can kill people that do not know better like children and it is suddenly ok ?

For how much longer can westerners start to realize that when dealing with China, there's no rights, there's only power.
You can block importing of a car, that's a power. It's technically doable.
You can't block random small packets with no declaration at all at any economical cost.
If you don't have the power to enforce quality of goods from China, you don't get the right of keeping crap away.
This is also why there are crap power supplies from China -- you don't have power (money) to buy genuine, then you lose your rights to pursue safety.
Once again, never say right or wrong in China, it won't work. Talk power, and follow the trace of interest.

It's very simple really. No business to consumer imports. All packages must clearly display the sender and any business to consumer imports get returned/scrapped or examined at the buyer/sellers cost. Only business to business imports with proper documentation to be allowed and the importer will be legally responsible for any regulatory infringements. Importers to be based in the country of import and citizens of that country and subject to it's laws and judicial system.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #127 on: November 24, 2017, 04:53:12 pm »
Well yes that is why some of us fight for laws that protect the public. Like i said individual to individual posting fine, business to individual no, or you cap it. I dearly hope that it is not against WTO rules to ensure that goods are safe ? as it is China only gets away with it because EU countries are so lax at enforcing any import duty and those tariffs are set by the WTO. You can't examine and process every package for quality and customs, it is impossible. So you make sure they are imported by agents, they can then pay the correct duty on the whole container and are responsible for ensuring the products conform to CE standards.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #128 on: November 24, 2017, 05:01:54 pm »
But now we are talking about mains connected electrical equipment, that can kill people that do not know better like children and it is suddenly ok ?

For how much longer can westerners start to realize that when dealing with China, there's no rights, there's only power.
You can block importing of a car, that's a power. It's technically doable.
You can't block random small packets with no declaration at all at any economical cost.
If you don't have the power to enforce quality of goods from China, you don't get the right of keeping crap away.
This is also why there are crap power supplies from China -- you don't have power (money) to buy genuine, then you lose your rights to pursue safety.
Once again, never say right or wrong in China, it won't work. Talk power, and follow the trace of interest.

It's very simple really. No business to consumer imports. All packages must clearly display the sender and any business to consumer imports get returned/scrapped or examined at the buyer/sellers cost. Only business to business imports with proper documentation to be allowed and the importer will be legally responsible for any regulatory infringements. Importers to be based in the country of import and citizens of that country and subject to it's laws and judicial system.
Well that’s just stupid, a return to distributor-centric fiefdom where distributors charge absurd markups.

I, for one, am really fucking glad I can order from Amazon Germany or USA, or Digi-Key (USA) and get it shipped to Switzerland.
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #129 on: November 24, 2017, 05:02:17 pm »
Well yes that is why some of us fight for laws that protect the public. Like i said individual to individual posting fine, business to individual no, or you cap it. I dearly hope that it is not against WTO rules to ensure that goods are safe ? as it is China only gets away with it because EU countries are so lax at enforcing any import duty and those tariffs are set by the WTO. You can't examine and process every package for quality and customs, it is impossible. So you make sure they are imported by agents, they can then pay the correct duty on the whole container and are responsible for ensuring the products conform to CE standards.
How would you ever distinguish between individual to individual and everything else without suspending privacy completely, or even by doing so?
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #130 on: November 24, 2017, 05:10:03 pm »
To be honest I don't know but there must be a way. I'm thinking mainly ebay sellers where most of this slips under the radar (or rather customs and trading standards throw a great big blanket over it and pretend they can't smell what is under there because it's too big to deal with). genuine established companies could register and have their goods approved. but then even Rigol has European distributors, but if the product is good and properly certified it could be given automatic clearance. What needs to be stopped is all this shit that costs 99p ships for free and is either useless or worse dangerous.

so say either the goods are certified by an european agency before they can be imported or they have to go through a locally based importer that takes the can for the product. This would induce importers to step up their pressure on manufacturers and stop them just passing the stuff on.
 

Offline Kilo Tango

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #131 on: November 24, 2017, 06:43:52 pm »
I recently bought some Li-Po batteries from China. These are supposed to be shipped in a specific controlled manner aren't they?.

They arrived via normal mail in a jiffy bag marked Ni-mH.

How about all packages from far east have to pay an inspection charge of say £2. And they are all checked. And if not as described or dangerous, the buyer has to pay say £25 for disposal. They could be made to pay the £25 plus £2 up front before goods are shipped to them, and they get a refund if all OK.

Thoughts ?

Ken
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #132 on: November 24, 2017, 07:31:24 pm »
the easier solution is not to deal with china other than known approved manufacturers and exporters, if they ship one dodgy item they pay a huge fine and can't export any more until it's paid or just have their licence revoked. My idea of regulated importers could be turned on it's head and regulate the exporters or manufacturers, if your big you register as an approved exporter and face consequences if you break the rules, if your small you take your goods to an exporter who is charged with certifying the goods and is responsible if they are found to be be unfit when they arrive at destination. Naturally that does not stop people setting up one exporting company after another but it does add hassle at the point of breaking the rules.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #133 on: November 24, 2017, 10:36:46 pm »
Or hold Ebay/Ali and sorts acountable esp. in cases of death, I might be mistaken but they are the intermediairy in the transaction, they profit from it , they can be held accountable in cases of fraud where they soon remove a seller from their marketplace.. They are not allowed and do not offer a marketplace for obvious illegal and dangerous products as guns or drugs. So why not hold them accountable for products with potential safety issues?
 

Offline Kilo Tango

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #134 on: November 24, 2017, 11:09:42 pm »
Trouble is Ebay/Aliexpress provide an easy conduit for stuff into the country, for people wanting something they will buy it if its cheap enough, and the far east sellers excel at offering it at prices so cheap they sell by the bucket load. The recent sign gen with the dodgy power supply, how many do you think have been sold world wide ?. Probably >10,000. Cause they are all under the radar, so cheap they get thro customs, who aren't really concerned with electrical safety.

Hence my idea of slapping an investigation charge on everything, and if the seller looses the £50 they paid for a sig gen plus having to pay another £25 for disposal, they will soon stop buying crap and look for better quality stuff. The word will soon get around the various forums. If you remove the customers the far east will have to change tactic, hopefully make better quality stuff.

Ken
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #135 on: November 24, 2017, 11:37:01 pm »
Or hold Ebay/Ali and sorts acountable esp. in cases of death, I might be mistaken but they are the intermediairy in the transaction, they profit from it , they can be held accountable in cases of fraud where they soon remove a seller from their marketplace.. They are not allowed and do not offer a marketplace for obvious illegal and dangerous products as guns or drugs. So why not hold them accountable for products with potential safety issues?

Let's say there is a specific type of mains to USB, 5V/500mA charger/power supply. But which has been poorly designed and is unsafe. There could easily be twenty, similar Chinese sellers of it on Ebay (and other outlets).

So we wait until some unfortunate person, dies from the device. E.g. In the UK (or Europe or the rest of the world).

So Ebay, then ban that specific seller, from selling again on ebay.

I can just see that working out just great. (warning: sarcastic response from me).

The other 19 sellers, can carry on selling the dangerous charger, throughout the world. The one banned ebay seller, can change their email address and ebay ID, and starting selling the same poor quality nonsense on ebay again.

Until another poor unfortunate is killed by the dangerous charger, again.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2017, 11:40:17 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #136 on: November 25, 2017, 07:42:09 am »
Or hold Ebay/Ali and sorts acountable esp. in cases of death, I might be mistaken but they are the intermediairy in the transaction, they profit from it , they can be held accountable in cases of fraud where they soon remove a seller from their marketplace.. They are not allowed and do not offer a marketplace for obvious illegal and dangerous products as guns or drugs. So why not hold them accountable for products with potential safety issues?

because they are unaccountable as they reside in offshore jurisdictions. That is why I keep repeating that the importer MUST be LOCALLY based with citizens of that nation as directors. The reason this hit goes under the radar is that the importing countries are incompetent - particularly the UK - in not enforcing the law and it's done in small transactions.

A classic example is Daves uCurrent. Germans can't buy one from Dave because the German authorities are fierce in enforcing the rules and no CE mark means it gets returned to sender. The UK don't give a shit, so Dave ships them to me by the box. Not only is neither of us asked about CE marking, I have not been charged import duty on the last two boxes that came in on DHL. Now you can of course reasonably argue that expecting a simple circuit board like a uCurrent to be CE marked is silly and it is, in fact self certification is probably possible with no need for an external lab. But if it was a mains charger or something things would be more serious. Who is at fault here? I blame the UK authorities for not even checking that it is not a mains powered device, and they can't be assed to charge me import duty that should go towards paying to check all of that chinese shit we would not even be letting in.

What happens with the chinese shit is that someone will have to get hurt or someone like me get hold of one, know the law and ring a charity because a consumer can't ring trading standards anymore. If I make a good case to the charity workers that don't know the law themselves they will pass my report onto trading standards (I have had to explain the law to them in the past because they did not know or care for it). Trading standards will then have to come and get the thing off me and details of where i got it. If it came from a shop they will trace the shop and the importer and try and get them removed from circulation the hard way with product recalls etc and the shop/wholesaler/importer may get held accountable. If the item came from ebay the charity worker won't even take any details and all I can do is complain to the seller who is conveniently protected by ebay who not being a legal entity in the UK are out of reach of the law.
 

Offline Kilo Tango

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #137 on: November 25, 2017, 09:52:24 am »
Well to get this moving, why do't we all write to our MP ?. As Engineers our voice must carry some weight, and there are plenty examples to put forward, then let them work out a way of stopping the c**p coming in.

We pay a lot for government, time they did some good.

Ken
 

Offline MK14

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #138 on: November 25, 2017, 12:49:42 pm »
A classic example is Daves uCurrent. Germans can't buy one from Dave because the German authorities are fierce in enforcing the rules and no CE mark means it gets returned to sender. The UK don't give a

Maybe we (in the UK and probably the EU as well), need to INSIST that anything which has a mains plug and/or connects to the mains (e.g. a mains voltage LED bulb), MUST be officially certified. Otherwise it is NOT allowed to be imported, unless marked as prototype/sample (or historic collectors item) via official businesses and documentation (to minimise cheating).

I don't know how this could be easily implemented, but would look at the German system, to see how practicable their system is, for use in the UK/EU.

Maybe other things (such as dodgy Lithium batteries, over-powered Laser pointers and other potentially dangerous items, should be included as well).

It really needs reasonably simple/straightforward rules/laws, so that this can be implemented, in a fast, efficient and cost effective manner.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #139 on: November 25, 2017, 08:11:42 pm »
I think in Germany basically if it comes from outside of the EU you need a CE mark. Which is how it is supposed to be. Of course the what needs a CE mark could be debated.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #140 on: November 25, 2017, 08:18:30 pm »
Well to get this moving, why do't we all write to our MP ?. As Engineers our voice must carry some weight, and there are plenty examples to put forward, then let them work out a way of stopping the c**p coming in.

We pay a lot for government, time they did some good.

Ken

Have you ever tried writing to a UK MP? My dishonorable member for wellingborough and rushden is an old asshole that spends more time working out how to line his own pockets than give a rats ass about what his constituents concerns are. He has no technical background at all and only pays attention to headline grabbing stuff so that he can look good in the papers. That is why we are in the mess we are in, because politicians and not technical people run the country.

A country is a system and needs system engineers to make it work. Instead though we have a bunch of upper class people that never really achieved anything only thinking about what tomorrows headlines will be. and if that is "goods now more expensive to import because of more stringent controls" they know they won't be popular. Unfortunately running the country properly is about doing unpopular things like making people pay for their services and stopping bad people harming society which comes at a cost to society but benefits everyone all round if you look beyond the 5 second decision to buy a good quality device that won't kill you versus one for 1/10 the price that is quite likely to kill you or you might have got lucky this time......
 
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Online amyk

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2017, 03:37:59 am »
...as if we should get the government to control even more how we should live... ::) I don't want to make this political, but seeing those in the UK advocate for more regulation is a little disturbing. Heard of 1984? :palm:

Just let Darwin take care of it.

Besides, don't forget that this happened in Vietnam, and many more die in car accidents every day. The fact that it makes the news when someone does get electrocuted already says a lot about how dangerous these "unsafe" chargers actually are in practice.
 

Offline Towger

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2017, 07:06:57 am »
A classic example is Daves uCurrent. Germans can't buy one from Dave because the German authorities are fierce in enforcing the rules and no CE mark means it gets returned to sender. The UK don't give a shit, so Dave ships them to me by the box.

With the way things are going they will all need the British Kite mark in a couple of years.  If they start in forcing that it will really limit the import of shoddy electronics.

Btw, when you talk about duty do you mean VAT + Duty or just Duty alone?

 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2017, 08:45:02 am »
...as if we should get the government to control even more how we should live... ::) I don't want to make this political, but seeing those in the UK advocate for more regulation is a little disturbing. Heard of 1984? :palm:



Unfortunately that is the typical attitude of the ignorant UK citizen and no doubt the ignorant citizen of any country. So you want the liberty of buying something dangerous off ebay from someone in china and killing yourself? sure go ahead. Like you say Darwin awards at the standby. I don't see how the government would be controlling how you live if they say they are going to stop you buying stuff that could cause your death or the death of one of your family members. they are not saying that you can't buy a phone charger, they are saying that for you benefit and that of those you may subject the phone charger to it must be safe. You are basically arguing to have your life put at risk.

And no I don't know what you mean by 1984, I was born the year before that.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2017, 08:59:21 am »
A classic example is Daves uCurrent. Germans can't buy one from Dave because the German authorities are fierce in enforcing the rules and no CE mark means it gets returned to sender. The UK don't give a shit, so Dave ships them to me by the box.

With the way things are going they will all need the British Kite mark in a couple of years.  If they start in forcing that it will really limit the import of shoddy electronics.

Btw, when you talk about duty do you mean VAT + Duty or just Duty alone?



I don't think there would be a problem with maintaining current CE standards and marking. it is not unusual for standards set by one country or group to be adopted by others. How many different logos are there on anything decent you buy these days? I designed a wiring loom for a low volume commercial vehicle, the customer insisted wire was used that has certifications from other automotive manufacturers, why? because those standards are adopted the world over by car makers and therefore accepted by all importing countries. it would make no sense for them to have their own approvals and get that ratified in any other country, they simply piggy back on others standards who in turn meet or exceed the standards of any nation importing their goods and have already been cleared and declared as such. If the UK wants to come up with their own standards that meets or exceeds CE marking they can do that, I doubt they will as CE is already in depth enough and has protected us so far as we check the CE printed on that dodgy Chinese item is not just part of the standard silk screen and is backed up by certification.

By Duty I mean either i suppose, any method for the government to raise money to fund the service that checks incoming goods for suitability. Duty in itself is a charge of it's own, you can have VAT levied on top. So typically if something is bought from abroad where VAT is not paid to the seller the importing government will levy it instead. On top of that they can charge duty which is i think a discretionary charge and basically dissuades people from buying too much from abroad and circumventing local distribution and manufacturing in order to unfairly cut costs or at least I hope that is it's function.

If we truly want to put this country back on it's feet we should levy significant import duty on all goods from china and give UK manufacturers a shot at making the same stuff properly.

The way VAT works in europe is that if you buy in any EU country VAT is charged at YOUR local rate (yes sorry ebay had to put their prices up because UK VAT is more than luxemburg), thast is then passed to YOUR government, or if you are VAT registered you can not pay the VAT and save the intercountry dealings. Ifyou are dealing outside of the EU then you are not charged VAT by the seller but customs should intercept the goods and charge in the case of the UK 20% on the declared value.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2017, 09:00:44 am »
oh and of course the chinese are really generous as not only do they sell at rock bottom prices but apparently they don't take the money and everything shipped is a "gift". Perhaps the UK and other countries customs need to wake up to the fact that the Chinese are actually not so generous.
 

Offline Beamin

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #146 on: November 26, 2017, 12:39:53 pm »
BigClive could figure this one out.

So for this to electrocute yourself you would have to

1. have something fail in the charger that connected the hot side to one of the wires in the cable
2. Touch one of the wires with bare skin - normal if you are sleeping
3. Touch something that was grounded- She might have a heater or base board or pipes by her bed.

Seems like 1 in a million or less odds. The article did say electrocution.
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Offline Beamin

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #147 on: November 26, 2017, 12:49:11 pm »
They could achieve a lot by stopping the Chinese government form subsidising the postage.

Not only the Chinese govt provides subsidy...  the Universal Postal Union rules mean that destination countries pay much of the internal cost of delivering a packet from foreign countries e.g. China.  Some of that money is reclaimed from the foreign countries, but not all.  So effectively, we too provide a subsidy.

Does anyone know how this works in the US? So a epacket from china lands at a port or airport how do they pay the postal system for delivering it to your house? Knowing this country the taxpayers probably foot the bill (under the guise of jobs or free trade or other BS) but I would hope not. Those epackets alone must cost millions to ship but yet you just paid 99 cents for everything including profit and postage. No such thing as free money. We should put a 5$ terrify on these things. I know I used to sell things on ebay but now my ads are just buried under 100 pages of crap half the price with free shipping. You could actually make a living just buying things on ebay then reselling them. Not anymore unless you are Chinese.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #148 on: November 26, 2017, 01:33:15 pm »
I too pulled out of ebay. Usually a destination country has a so called "reciprocal" arrangement, we deliver yours for free, you delivers ours for free. Of course no one actualy sells anything to china who incidentally have a 100% import tariff.
 

Online brucehoult

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Re: Teen dead after rolling on to iPhone cable in her sleep
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2017, 02:33:06 pm »
I too pulled out of ebay. Usually a destination country has a so called "reciprocal" arrangement, we deliver yours for free, you delivers ours for free. Of course no one actualy sells anything to china who incidentally have a 100% import tariff.

That's just obviously not true.

New Zealand for example in 2016 exported US$9.4 billion of products to China, while importing US$10.3 billion. Imports from China doubled from 2007 to 2016, while exports to China QUADRUPLED in the same time period.

It is likely that NZ will sell more to China than it buys soon, if not already in 2017.

China is New Zealand’s second-largest trading partner for exports and only third-largest for imports. In the year ended June 2016, 17 percent of NZs goods and services exports went to China while 16 percent of NZ's goods and services imports came from China.

NZ, incidentally, have had a Free Trade Agreement with China since 2008, so your 100% tarrif point is not true either.

The UK would be free to do the same if and when it leaves the EU.
 


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