| General > General Technical Chat |
| Telsa remotely disables Auto-Pilot on used car it sold at its own auction ... |
| << < (14/16) > >> |
| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: james_s on February 10, 2020, 08:51:09 pm ---Bullshit. Yes car design is encumbered by overregulation of almost every aspect but more so than that the design is driven by fads. Tell me what physics demands rudiculous 20" rims with rubber band tires on a family car. What requirements mandate every car be styled as huge tall fake SUV? Cars look the way they are because they have been optimized to appeal to the broadest range of consumers possible, the middle of the bell curve, the ubiquitous crossover is sort of a car, sort of a station wagon, sort of an SUV, it does none of these things well but it's popular with the average consumer because no matter what they are looking for it looks vaguely like that. Everyone else just copies what is selling best and soon you can hardly buy anything else. While I would love to roll back a lot of the regulations (hey I can buy a motorcycle so why can't I buy a car without a zillion airbags?) it's absolutely possible to make a car that isn't yet another POS crossover within the current system. How about we start with bringing back actual shock mounted bumpers that protect the bodywork so a minor parking lot bump doesn't cost $3k to repair? People like me who want something different are left out in the cold, gone are the days when manufactures made a bunch of unique stuff aiming for a hit, now they just take the safe route and make more of the same. It's exactly the same reason Hollywood is pumping out so many sequels, prequels and reboots, most of it is unimaginative garbage, but it sells so they make more and more of it, and it displaces more and more interesting stuff. You can't blame that on physics and government regulation, it's just an unfortunate result of capitalism. --- End quote --- If you can't accept that the shape of a car is predominantly dictated by physics and legal or safety requirements I don't think there's much left to discuss. All cars of a similar size and mass will be similarly shaped due to these requirements. Bumpers are soft foam filled affairs which are often integrated because of the increased focus on pedestrian safety. That's not great for fender benders in the parking lot but it does decrease the damage done to pedestrians. I won't deny that fashion is also a factor. The dominance of SUV sized vehicles despite that class being fundamentally and intrinsically less safe is the result of that. You can hardly blame manufacturers for this. They merely respond to the constraints of the market from both the legal perspective and the demand. I'd also like to object to the notion of overregulation when vehicle safety and accident survivability has undeniably been improving a lot over the years. Not all regulation is equally successful but as a whole it's definitely a worthwhile endeavour. |
| grumpydoc:
--- Quote from: Bud on February 10, 2020, 03:20:05 pm --- --- Quote from: grumpydoc on February 10, 2020, 01:14:27 pm ---Finally fewer and fewer people actually own cars anyway --- End quote --- I did not notice that.... Each house in my neighbourhood has cars parked on the driveways, some have 2 and some have 3. --- End quote --- Note that I said own, not "have". --- Quote from: nctnico on February 10, 2020, 04:37:35 pm --- --- Quote ---Finally fewer and fewer people actually own cars anyway, financing has moved towards contract hire deals where you never own the vehicle --- End quote --- Better put some numbers on this. I think this shift is caused by people who would previously 'buy' a car and borrow the money from the car dealer. Since the credit-crunch rules for loans have become much stricter so it is likely car dealers don't want the hassle of handling credit applications. A private lease construction is subject to much less rules. --- End quote --- OK, fair call I don't have numbers - BUT I've just bought a car (not on finance) and the contract hire deals are the ones front and centre on the manufacturers websites and are, on the face of it, cheaper per month so which option are most people going to go for? You never own the vehicle on these deals, just rent it. --- Quote from: james_s on February 10, 2020, 05:17:57 pm ---I like owning a car because it's a toy I can tinker with, fix it up, customize it to my liking, I want to own things, I don't rent anything. --- End quote --- Yes, sure, I agree on both the "tinkering" and "dislike rental/credit" front - in fact I suspect this whole forum is populated with people who have a similar opinion. --- Quote from: sokoloff on February 10, 2020, 04:41:12 pm ---Agreed. Our cars spend probably 97.5% of the time idle (avg 6K miles per year on one and 4K mi/yr on the other). One is a 2005 Honda bought in 2012. For 40K miles, we’ve put about $4K in gas, $300 in oil changes, $1200 in outsourced repairs, $500 in tires, $400 in parts for DIY repairs, paid $4K in insurance, paid a few hundred for registrations and inspections, and it’s probably worth $4K less than we paid. 40K miles around $15K in expenses. $0.37/mi all in. --- End quote --- For the UK double the gas price I suspect, average is about £5.80 (=$7.45) per (imperial) gallon, say 35mpg is £0.165/mi (=$0.27) just in fuel. I drive (well, drove until three days ago) an '06 Toyota Celica - say 28-30mpg so my fuel only cost is £0.20/mi (=$0.26), annual mileage 6-8k; servicing, insurance, road tax, tyres, depreciation - realistically £1400 ($1800) pa, lets say £0.20 or $0.26/mi - so my total is a bit more than $0.50/mi - it's not a million miles from your estimate, the difference in fuel will be a lot of it - but I think lends some weight to my comment that $0.28 seems pretty cheap. For reference the UK tax allowance for business car miles is £0.45/mi - I suspect the revenue has a pretty fair idea of realistic running costs. Like you I tend not to buy new cars so my depreciation is low - if you do buy new the costs can be quite high, looking a a Citroën C1 - pretty small city car, new OTR price £13560 is £169/mo (=£2028 or $2616 a year) before you have put fuel in, paid road tax or insured it. --- Quote ---No way are we going to use Uber every time we need to go somewhere, even if it was only $0.40/mi, let alone a significant multiple of that! --- End quote --- Maybe not - today at any rate, but I'm not talking about today. There are other things in play as well as the financing, one is that from 2022 all cars sold in the EU (and the UK) will have to have mandatory safety features such as GPS based speed limiters, lane assist etc - that goes some way to the car doing the driving. Chances are more automation will be added so you will get to the situation (say 2035 ish) where it will not be a big step to 100% automation, at which point it will probably be illegal to tinker with your car in any way at all (well, you might still be allowed fluffy dice). So, by 2040-2045 (I did say 25 years) you might well have a fleet of autonomous vehicles which are total black boxes and which all drive pretty much the same - why bother "owning" one just for your personal use? That turned out to be a long post - perhaps a separate "future of private motoring" thread? |
| GeorgeOfTheJungle:
In short, a future that will be worse. |
| edy:
An interesting point made on the Reddit thread is doesn't software follow the car or the user? It would be nasty if a company can sell the feature multiple times every time a car transfers ownership. Then again, it's software not hardware. I think the way forward which could mitigate this issue is to sell a monthly subscription or annual subscription to autopilot. Whoever the new owner is will need to sign up and pay. It should not be sold as a "bulk" one time purchase. One day what if for some reason government regulators determine some major flaw and force all autopilot features on all cars disabled or crippled in capacity in some way. In this scenario, you feel like you paid $8000 for one thing and then get a reduced feature set later. Also, it is a hefty upfront fee and you may own the car for many years and through multiple iterations of software improvements... you've used the feature longer than a new owner and benefited from it. If Tesla required a subscription, say $1200 per year or $99.99 a month, you could decide to use it or not, just cancel subscription. You could activate it any time. After less than 7 years you've paid the $8000 so Tesla keeps raking in the dough. On the other hand, it is not a "must have" feature as they clearly sell cars without it. So if you feel the cost is too steep or you don't need it, then don't use it. They could even charge you based on number of miles or minutes the autopilot feature is engaged. For example it would be like paying for a "private driver" or taxi service. Every time it is engaged the meter starts ticking. Maybe a flat monthly rate plus usage fees. If you never use it you pay minimal maintenance software fees just for having the convenience of it being instantly available. If you use it a lot (and perhaps increase liability risk to Tesla in case of a problem) then you pay a greater share for the autopilot "program". Again this would fall better perhaps into other subscription based services and not this one-time upfront purchase on a car... it could perhaps solve issues like the one discussed in this thread and other potential problems Tesla and drivers could face in the future. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: edy on February 11, 2020, 12:50:13 pm ---They could even charge you based on number of miles or minutes the autopilot feature is engaged. For example it would be like paying for a "private driver" or taxi service. Every time it is engaged the meter starts ticking. Maybe a flat monthly rate plus usage fees. If you never use it you pay minimal maintenance software fees just for having the convenience of it being instantly available. If you use it a lot (and perhaps increase liability risk to Tesla in case of a problem) then you pay a greater share for the autopilot "program". Again this would fall better perhaps into other subscription based services and not this one-time upfront purchase on a car... it could perhaps solve issues like the one discussed in this thread and other potential problems Tesla and drivers could face in the future. --- End quote --- By that time we'll have open source self driving car software. |
| Navigation |
| Message Index |
| Next page |
| Previous page |