Author Topic: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?  (Read 955 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline optoisolated

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 50
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
Saw this article this morning; haven't had a chance to read the actual research paper yet, so unsure if it's legit or not, but definitely noteworthy.
 :o :popcorn:

Tesla’s battery research partner has released a new paper on a battery cell that could last over 1 million miles, which they say is going to be particularly useful in ‘robot taxis’ – something that Tesla wants to bring to market.

The new battery tested is a Li-Ion battery cell with a next-generation “single crystal” NMC cathode and a new advanced electrolyte. Dahn’s team have been extensively testing these cells and based on the results, they think that the battery could power an electric car “for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles).”

“We present a wide range of testing results on an excellent moderate-energy-density lithium-ion pouch cell chemistry to serve as benchmarks for academics and companies developing advanced lithium-ion and other “beyond lithium-ion” cell chemistries to (hopefully) exceed. These results are far superior to those that have been used by researchers modelling cell failure mechanisms and as such, these results are more representative of modern Li-ion cells and should be adopted by modellers. Up to three years of testing has been completed for some of the tests. Tests include long-term charge-discharge cycling at 20, 40 and 55°C, long-term storage at 20, 40 and 55°C, and high precision coulometry at 40°C. Several different electrolytes are considered in this LiNi0.5Mn0.3Co0.2O2/graphite chemistry, including those that can promote fast charging. The reasons for cell performance degradation and impedance growth are examined using several methods. We conclude that cells of this type should be able to power an electric vehicle for over 1.6 million kilometers (1 million miles) and last at least two decades in grid energy storage.”

https://electrek.co/2019/09/07/tesla-battery-cell-last-1-million-miles-robot-taxis/
 
The following users thanked this post: 3roomlab

Online windsmurf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 586
  • Country: us
 

Offline Psi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7237
  • Country: nz
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2019, 04:26:20 am »
I will reserve my enthusiasm until i can order the cells.
Greek letter 'Psi' (not Pounds per Square Inch)
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike, nctnico, Yansi, Jacon

Offline sleemanj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2361
  • Country: nz
  • Professional tightwad.
    • The electronics hobby components I sell.
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2019, 05:18:02 am »
It looks to be a serious improvement in longevity and should be noted that this is with 100% Depth of Discharge (which the paper says is 3v lower, 4.3v upper)

A "million miles" pretty much means the pack would never have to be replaced, the car will be scrap value long before then unless it's being used in a commercial setting.



~~~
EEVBlog Members - get yourself 10% discount off all my electronic components for sale just use the Buy Direct links and use Coupon Code "eevblog" during checkout.  Shipping from New Zealand, international orders welcome :-)
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8915
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2019, 05:32:41 am »
I will reserve my enthusiasm until i can order the cells.

Came here to say that. There have been many, many claims of revolutionary batteries over the years, many of which went nowhere. I'm only interested when I can buy some to use.
 

Offline filssavi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 259
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2019, 05:57:23 am »
This is clearly a research result, thus it is probably an hand picked cell, among a batch, manufactured with the best materials and techniques...

When going from the lab to the factory floor unfortunately the blueprints pass through the cost cutting >:D.. ehm  manufacturing engineering department, where the performances are thrown away for dimes on the dollar
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:05:06 am by filssavi »
 

Online windsmurf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 586
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2019, 06:19:15 am »
This is clearly a research result, thus it is probably an hand picked cell, among a batch, manufactured with the best materials and techniques...

When going from the lab to the factory floor unfortunately the blueprints pass through the cost cutting >:D.. ehm  manufacturing engineering department, where the performances are thrown away for dimes on the dollar

Its only a research paper... there are not results yet.
 
The following users thanked this post: dcarr

Offline Rerouter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4293
  • Country: au
  • Question Everything... Except This Statement
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2019, 06:51:04 am »
It seems like a much smaller breakthrough when you start putting the numbers together,

Quote
With an active cooling system, like in Tesla’s battery pack, it was pushing the battery cells to over 6,000 cycles,which would easily mean over 1 million miles in a good battery pack.

so that means they are only promising ~6000 discharge cycles, which while the 100-0% cycles is an improvement, is not far from similar research papers on batteries if you limit yourself to something like 100-25% discharge.

It also makes sense then why they would be targeting taxi's, they would want vehicles that are essentially always in use, so the cycle count is the dominant factor, not the number of years.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 06:52:58 am by Rerouter »
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline Stray Electron

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 707
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2019, 09:42:20 pm »
   "Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles"

   Yawn!  Wake me when someone has one that will last 1 million miles.
 
The following users thanked this post: janoc, Jacon

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1520
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2019, 09:52:20 pm »
I could care less how many miles it lasts, especially when that number is much higher than I'd ever need. I'm more interested in actual specs.
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3404
  • Country: ca
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2019, 09:57:43 pm »
Can they give me a million miles cell phone battery?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline filssavi

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 259
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2019, 10:25:27 pm »
This is clearly a research result, thus it is probably an hand picked cell, among a batch, manufactured with the best materials and techniques...

When going from the lab to the factory floor unfortunately the blueprints pass through the cost cutting >:D.. ehm  manufacturing engineering department, where the performances are thrown away for dimes on the dollar

Its only a research paper... there are not results yet.

It’s a research paper, so they have experimental results, however trying to extrapolate real world performance form the figures obtained in a lab is methodologically wrong and disingenuous at best...

The job of researchers is not to design new products, but to explore ideas and concepts that are still too far away but could be one day down the road implemented in real products
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17459
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2019, 11:03:33 pm »
Sounds great but the world would be better served with a battery which is 20 times cheapers and costs 20 times less energy to produce. Who said a vehicle battery can't be a consumable?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8915
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2019, 12:13:18 am »
I'll gladly pay 3x as much for a battery that lasts 2.5 times as long. Replacing consumables is far from free from a labor perspective and we have enough disposable trash already. Lifespan is very, very important as a lot of gear gets disposed of due to failure of the battery pack even if buying a new pack is arguably economical.

I mean I've had cars given to me that were bound for the scrapper due to faults as simple as a fuel pump relay.
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3449
  • Country: gb
  • Electronic Engineer & Hobbyist
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2019, 06:25:51 am »
Sounds great but the world would be better served with a battery which is 20 times cheapers and costs 20 times less energy to produce. Who said a vehicle battery can't be a consumable?

Because there are certain physical constraints with current battery packs - such as requiring a rigid protective case - that do not ally themselves to being disposable/consumer-serviceable components at 1/20th the weight of a current battery pack.

Also, there is then the environmental cost of disposing of that battery pack - even if it costs less energy to make, it still needs to be recycled or safely landfilled.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 06:28:42 am by tom66 »
 

Offline FreddieChopin

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 78
  • Country: ua
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2019, 05:42:23 pm »
Problem with ICE cars is that current engines are so badly overengineered and hard to repair and that's why it's not worth buying anything new. My 1994 Honker with Andoria 4C90 diesel engine is so simple to service that even 16y old kid can do it. Anyway, what's the point of having electric car that accelerates from 0-60mph in few seconds when most of the time it's driving from red light to red light. If winters weren't as harsh I could get by with just a bicycle. And I can assure you, with regular welding repairs to bodywork my Honker will still be driving in 20-30 years. Your tesla will become a razor or Juicero or metal weights for a gaming mousse.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17459
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2019, 05:49:55 pm »
Sounds great but the world would be better served with a battery which is 20 times cheapers and costs 20 times less energy to produce. Who said a vehicle battery can't be a consumable?
Because there are certain physical constraints with current battery packs - such as requiring a rigid protective case - that do not ally themselves to being disposable/consumer-serviceable components at 1/20th the weight of a current battery pack.
This thread is about dreaming of new batteries. Not the current ones. But for argument's sake let's assume the housing + electronics can be re-used and it is just the cells that need replacing.
Quote
Also, there is then the environmental cost of disposing of that battery pack - even if it costs less energy to make, it still needs to be recycled or safely landfilled.
Ofcourse the 20 times less energy includes getting recycled.

If you think about it in terms of TCO it makes a lot of sense. A low endurance battery pack which costs 20 times less makes an EV's price similar to a regular car and at 20 times less energy on par where it comes to CO2 emissions from production. Say a low endurance pack lasts 50k km on average. This means you break even at a million kilometers compared of the price of a high-end battery pack. If you only drive the car for 100k km you'd need to spend somewhere between $1000 to $2000 on a new battery pack half way. The price of the EV can also become lower because the manufacturer doesn't have to reserve so much money for warranty on batteries (warranty isn't something you get for free; it is an insurance you pay for).

The bottom line is: making something better doesn't always mean it is an actual improvement in terms of TCO. You see the same with a lot of other stuff. You can buy a washing machine which lasts 20 years or one which last 5 years at 1/5th of the price. In the latter case you do end up with a washing machine which has the latest technology on energy savings every time you buy a new one.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 08:52:11 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Nauris

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 144
  • Country: fi
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2019, 03:16:20 pm »
Sounds great but the world would be better served with a battery which is 20 times cheapers and costs 20 times less energy to produce. Who said a vehicle battery can't be a consumable?
Because there are certain physical constraints with current battery packs - such as requiring a rigid protective case - that do not ally themselves to being disposable/consumer-serviceable components at 1/20th the weight of a current battery pack.
This thread is about dreaming of new batteries. Not the current ones. But for argument's sake let's assume the housing + electronics can be re-used and it is just the cells that need replacing.
You can always dream and play with numbers, but thats a rather pointless excercise if there is no connection to reality.

The battery manufacturing capacity is being constructed now at a fast pace and it is based on current lithium-ion technology. At this point any improvements needs to be such that they can be easily integrated into existing and planned manufacturing infrastructure.

Northvolt CEO said some time ago that battery market is going to be capacity limited for the next decade - thats why their aim is for longer life cells, to get max out of the limited manufacturing capacity.
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17459
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2019, 04:07:39 pm »
That could be the case for now but a decade will probably have passed before we see this new long-life battery on the market. At that point the market may be entirely different. Nobody knows (which also may be the cause of the limited production capacity; it hints towards a low risk profile towards investments in battery manufacturing).
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 04:09:15 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Nusa

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1520
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2019, 04:36:11 pm »
Pretty safe bet, since a decade is a pretty normal delay between "hey, we have prototypes that work" and "you can buy them now", assuming they don't find a gotcha during the commercialization process.
 

Offline Rick Law

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2654
  • Country: us
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2019, 06:13:20 pm »
This is clearly a research result, thus it is probably an hand picked cell, among a batch, manufactured with the best materials and techniques...

When going from the lab to the factory floor unfortunately the blueprints pass through the cost cutting >:D.. ehm  manufacturing engineering department, where the performances are thrown away for dimes on the dollar

Its only a research paper... there are not results yet.

But filssavi is keying on the important point - actual manufacturing and the cost cutting.  Manufacturers are by nature less enthuse about something that lasts.  The shorter something lasts, the more frequent the purchase.

Take Kitchen appliance.  The manufacturer(s) have no reservation about saying "we change the XYZ so cusomters can 'date' the kitchen" - I heard a marketing exec said that on a live TV interview.  So folks throw away perfectly functioning white color dish washers and refrigerators to "upgrade" to beige color ones, then stainless steel ones, recently they dispose of the stainless steel ones for "apple white" ones...

Even in the software industry, I recall the discussions in magazines (then less internet) windows 3x turning into Windows 95, then Windows 97, Windows 98, so on, as purely Microsoft's effort to create repeat customers.  All to create an impression that you need to buy another newer one.

My opinion is, it is probably far more useful for both consumers and manufacturers to improve efficiency/endurance and deploy-ability verses improving longevity.  Batteries that weights less and costs less but goes 400 miles on a charge and can recharge in 400 seconds would be far more successful as a product than a battery that can lasts 400,000 miles.
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2883
  • Country: fr
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2019, 06:25:46 pm »
It’s a research paper, so they have experimental results, however trying to extrapolate real world performance form the figures obtained in a lab is methodologically wrong and disingenuous at best...

You mean like all marketing press-releases?  >:D
 

Offline janoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2883
  • Country: fr
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2019, 06:36:35 pm »
Problem with ICE cars is that current engines are so badly overengineered and hard to repair and that's why it's not worth buying anything new. My 1994 Honker with Andoria 4C90 diesel engine is so simple to service that even 16y old kid can do it. Anyway, what's the point of having electric car that accelerates from 0-60mph in few seconds when most of the time it's driving from red light to red light. If winters weren't as harsh I could get by with just a bicycle. And I can assure you, with regular welding repairs to bodywork my Honker will still be driving in 20-30 years. Your tesla will become a razor or Juicero or metal weights for a gaming mousse.

Try to move to a country that actually enforces emission rules and doesn't let you register whatever imported wreck that wouldn't be possible to legally sell anywhere in the Western Europe anymore. You will find that your 1994 Honker is not allowed anywhere near a major city, that you are paying through the nose on various emission-related taxes and insurance maluses (if you even pass emission test at the mandatory tech inspection in the first place - e.g. your 1994 diesel certainly doesn't have a particle filter and likely smokes like a chimney) and the fuel costs are going to bite off ever larger piece of your income due to the various carbon taxes and rising prices of oil.

E.g. I am driving a 2009 Seat Leon, also diesel, satisfies EURO 4 standard - and I am not allowed into Paris with it anymore whenever there are polution-related restrictions in force. In a year or two I am not going to be able to drive in most major French cities that have the low polution zones in place. A 10 years old car, in perfect shape!

At some point the electric car or at least something newer that isn't hitting against all these restrictions starts to look interesting. Tesla is still mostly an enthusiast car but there are other cars than Teslas, both electric and gas powered.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2019, 06:39:08 pm by janoc »
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17459
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #23 on: September 12, 2019, 08:45:29 am »
E.g. I am driving a 2009 Seat Leon, also diesel, satisfies EURO 4 standard - and I am not allowed into Paris with it anymore whenever there are polution-related restrictions in force. In a year or two I am not going to be able to drive in most major French cities that have the low polution zones in place. A 10 years old car, in perfect shape!
Off topic: But why did you buy a diesel? The signs that diesel is going to be phased out/banned in large parts of Europe have been on the wall for a long time. It started with the German environmental zones.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 09:50:30 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online NANDBlog

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4402
  • Country: nl
Re: Tesla battery researcher unveils new cell that could last 1 million miles?
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2019, 10:59:31 am »
E.g. I am driving a 2009 Seat Leon, also diesel, satisfies EURO 4 standard - and I am not allowed into Paris with it anymore whenever there are polution-related restrictions in force. In a year or two I am not going to be able to drive in most major French cities that have the low polution zones in place. A 10 years old car, in perfect shape!
Off topic: But why did you buy a diesel? The signs that diesel is going to be phased out/banned in large parts of Europe have been on the wall for a long time. It started with the German environmental zones.
Since diesel abominations like these are sold here:

It should be illegal. The amount of engineering to make these cars less polluting is nil. They are more harmful to the environment, than dozens of hybrids. Like police should stop people driving these "cars", ask them to step out, and crush it into pieces on site.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf