Tesla downgrading software to lock out features on its cars...

[Zero999]

just look at how much of a turd Windows 10 is.

Compared to what? My Linux boxes crash much more often than my Windows machines do. Is Windows 10 perfect? No, but it is a solid, stable platform that gets a bad rap mainly because of bad feelings towards the company.

When looking at consumer hardware, it's more often caused by hardware (especially RAM) than software. Unless you've done something ridiculous to it.

Yes Windows doesn't crash much nowadays but that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

[Sal Ammoniac]

that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

Were they ever? If you're referring to automatic updates, then I agree with you--MS makes it very hard for the average user to opt-out of automatic updates (but I'd argue that the average user shouldn't opt-out).

[Zero999]

that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

Were they ever? If you're referring to automatic updates, then I agree with you--MS makes it very hard for the average user to opt-out of automatic updates (but I'd argue that the average user shouldn't opt-out).

No, when Windows first became popular, the user had a lot of control over their PC. The configuration was all done with user readable text files, rather than the cryptic registry. I remember having hours of fun tweaking win.ini system.ini, config.sys and autoexec.bat on Windows 3.1 and MS-DOS. The computer was not connected to the Internet, most of the time and getting connected was expensive and slow. Updates didn't really exist, until fast Internet connections became cheap and widespread.

MS gradually took control away from the uses as time went on. Forced automatic updates in Windows 10 were the final straw, although they seem to have backed off a bit.

[David Hess]

Yes Windows doesn't crash much nowadays but that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

For practical purposes, Windows rebooting due to an unwanted spontaneous software update is indistinguishable from a crash and should be considered the same.

[james_s]

that was not the point. The problem with Windows is user is no longer in control of their PC.

Were they ever? If you're referring to automatic updates, then I agree with you--MS makes it very hard for the average user to opt-out of automatic updates (but I'd argue that the average user shouldn't opt-out).

It's a matter of trust. For many years I never had any reason to opt out of updates, Windows Update worked very well and I trusted it. Now not so much, MS abused it to the extent that it caused me more grief and concern than similarly behaving malware and viruses. New bugs introduced regularly, features coming, going and changing, reboots in the middle of trying to do work, settings I've configured frequently reverting, crap I didn't ask for getting installed, I could go on. Simply put, I no longer trust Windows Update to do what is in my interest, instead it is a vehicle for Microsoft marketing. When it comes to my PC, I demand the final word on what it does and when, period.

[james_s]

I see you are not in the US, so here's a bit of enlightenment for you: go to YouTube and search "hot rod".

Yes, I realize you can mess with cars up to a point. I do not know what each state requires for a car to be road worthy and be able to get it registered. I know most would have exceptions for classic cars, kit cars, etc. OTOH, with regular production cars I know you are not allowed to change certain things like certain equipment, anti-pollution devices, etc. Depends on the state.  So, yes, I know it is complicated.

I guess my point is that Tesla protects their code and if a self-driving car is involved in an accident and Tesla can prove the user tampered with the code, then Tesla is going to disclaim all responsibility and the user is going to have an uphill battle trying to shift any responsibility back to Tesla. And Tesla will have more lawyers, which always helps.

It's illegal to tamper with emissions control hardware, some states like California are particularly strict. In practice though you can do pretty much whatever you want, only a few states have inspections other than a tailpipe sniffer every couple of years and that is being phased out since so few cars fail anymore.

Then once a car is 25 years old it is exempt from any kind of inspection. It's quite liberating to not have to go through any of that, I don't think I'd ever want to go back to having a younger car.

[james_s]

just look at how much of a turd Windows 10 is.

Compared to what? My Linux boxes crash much more often than my Windows machines do. Is Windows 10 perfect? No, but it is a solid, stable platform that gets a bad rap mainly because of bad feelings towards the company.

My Linux boxes never crash, I've had uptimes of more than a year before, limited mostly by power outages.

My Windows machines don't really crash either, my desktop bluescreens once in a while but I suspect faulty or marginally compatible RAM in that one, there has always been something not quite 100% right.

[langwadt]

I see you are not in the US, so here's a bit of enlightenment for you: go to YouTube and search "hot rod".

Yes, I realize you can mess with cars up to a point. I do not know what each state requires for a car to be road worthy and be able to get it registered. I know most would have exceptions for classic cars, kit cars, etc. OTOH, with regular production cars I know you are not allowed to change certain things like certain equipment, anti-pollution devices, etc. Depends on the state.  So, yes, I know it is complicated.

I guess my point is that Tesla protects their code and if a self-driving car is involved in an accident and Tesla can prove the user tampered with the code, then Tesla is going to disclaim all responsibility and the user is going to have an uphill battle trying to shift any responsibility back to Tesla. And Tesla will have more lawyers, which always helps.

It's illegal to tamper with emissions control hardware, some states like California are particularly strict. In practice though you can do pretty much whatever you want, only a few states have inspections other than a tailpipe sniffer every couple of years and that is being phased out since so few cars fail anymore.

a  tailpipe sniffer rather pointless, there's got to be something massively wrong for a modern car to fail and a random check of the tail pipe
says little about the real world emissions. They already of the possible emissions issues like misfires and bad cat via OBD

[SilverSolder]

These days, most automotive emissions testing consists of plugging in to the OBDII port, and verifying that there are no error codes related to emissions...

[Lord of nothing]

In a free market economy the price should reflect the production cost, so price discrimination shouldn't be possible.

In Austria the Petrol Station are permit only once a Day to increase the price for Petrol. Lower it is unlimited possible. 
How would you feel when 1L Milk cost on Peak Time 5€ and on off Peak 1€ for example?

In a free market economy the price reflect what people are willing to pay

Well when every Company decide to sell 1L Milk for 5€ how should the Customer choose something elese?

If there is profit to be made more sellers will enter the market and competition will drive down prices until profits approach zero.

Wrong. When I see how Supermarket Chains here in Austria work you will see there is no competition against each other. The have all the same hight Price.
You can choose the flavour of your choice but in the end the are the same.

The good thing about a free market is that you are not forced to buy and you can take your money and spend it on something else.

Well for that reason thankfully many thinks are still quite State Owned! Would you pay 500€ per Year for the Autobahn? When I follow your argument you dont need to drive on the Autobahn you can choose just narrow Roads.
The same for Public Transport. 2000€ for a Train Ticket is to much? You dont need take the Train you can walk! 

Obviously if the airline loses money year after year they will go out of business and the supply side shrinks a bit.

That happened in Austria. A lot of smaler Airlines had to close because the (former) State Owned Multi Milion € Airline lowered the Price for exactly that Route where the smaler Airline flown on until the had declare Bankruptcy. 
Thats how the "open marked" work. The defacto Monopolist cut the Price for one Route, Product,... until there is still no competitor left and the price goes up by 400%.

to fix it myself

well if you have an accident later or your house burn up you are screwed and the insurance will pay nothing. 

selling the same product at different prices (like region coded DVDs).

Well here in Europe there are many different Version of a DVD, Bluray is sold because the have all different Language inside.

[langwadt]

In a free market economy the price should reflect the production cost, so price discrimination shouldn't be possible.

In Austria the Petrol Station are permit only once a Day to increase the price for Petrol. Lower it is unlimited possible. 
How would you feel when 1L Milk cost on Peak Time 5€ and on off Peak 1€ for example?

In a free market economy the price reflect what people are willing to pay

Well when every Company decide to sell 1L Milk for 5€ how should the Customer choose something elese?

If there is profit to be made more sellers will enter the market and competition will drive down prices until profits approach zero.

Wrong. When I see how Supermarket Chains here in Austria work you will see there is no competition against each other. The have all the same hight Price.

only way that could happen is if they have contacts and agreements, price fixing and market sharing.
that is illegal around here,
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/selling-in-eu/competition-between-businesses/competition-rules-eu/index_en.htm

[Lord of nothing]

that is illegal around here,

well there was a case in Germany. In a small Town is a Public Lake Bath with an Snackbar. Some people complain against them for some reason.
Now the City open there own Snackbar infront of the Bath. Both hace the same price for Food and Drink with one little difference. The Person who rent the Snackbar in the Bath lost Money because the Snackbar in front of the Bath his loos got funded by Tax Money. 
So what did you think who survive this battle?

[soldar]

In Austria the Petrol Station are permit only once a Day to increase the price for Petrol. Lower it is unlimited possible. 

What does that achieve? I cannot think it achieves anything useful except make some politicians think they are doing something useful. Mostly the best thing they could do is nothing.

How would you feel when 1L Milk cost on Peak Time 5€ and on off Peak 1€ for example?

I would feel it was better to buy milk when it is cheap unless I needed it urgently. The notion that the government should be regulating the price of milk is absurd. In planned economies where this was tried the result was a scarcity of milk. Yet the free market manages to keep us well supplied with milk. You can buy milk anywhere in New York City, London, Paris, Madrid, Berlin... And you probably cant find a single cow in those cities. The free market entices millions of people to work to satisfy the needs of others. It is almost a miracle. We live better than ever because other people have an incentive to satisfy our needs. You want to know what it is like when the price of milk is regulated by the government? Just have a look at Venezuela. The moment the government regulates the price of something you get shortages. People just don't learn.

Well when every Company decide to sell 1L Milk for 5€ how should the Customer choose something elese?

Colluding to affect market prices is illegal pretty much in every civilized country and a few people are caught and marched to jail every year. Now, if you tell me the system is corrupt and does not prosecute enough then the problem is not the market, the problem is corruption and when you have corruption you really do not want to have the corrupt authorities regulating the market.

In Spain, like in any capitalist country, you can buy milk at many different prices. I can buy milk here for 0.55 and I could probably find it for 5.50. People choose according to brand, place, convenience, etc. I can go to Costco in the outskirts and buy in bulk for a very low price or I can buy in central Madrid late at night at a 24 h store for three times as much. I like having that choice and that possibility. The moment the government imposes a limit on the price of milk we will have shortages. Somebody stays open late to sell me milk because they can make a profit. If the government says no profit can be made then that choice disappears and if I'm out of milk I'm fucked. If that milk is too expensive for me then I can wait. What is not going to happen is that government regulation is going to lower the price of milk... or of anything else for that matter. We could study hundreds of examples.

Price regulation has almost never resulted in lower prices.  Price regulation results in (1) scarcity, (2) higher prices and (3) black market. This has been historically almost always true and yet people insist we need the government to set prices. No thanks. The free market may have its problems but governments have a terrible history when it comes to supplying our needs. Awfully terrible. If I have to choose who to supply my needs I will almost always choose the free market.

Rent control always results in lower supply and higher prices as we are seeing in Spain these days. If you want lower rent you need to increase supply and you do not increase supply by fucking with the owners. If you fuck with the owners many will decide it is not worth the hassle and take their properties off the market while others increase the rent they ask when you first move in knowing they cannot raise it later. Rent control is utter stupidity and yet a whole bunch of politicians keep proposing it.

Some years ago the government here gave some subsidies to young people to help pay their rent. The result, as was foreseeable, was that rent went up. It's called "supply and demand". Watch the five minute university youtube video linked above. Supply and demand. There is no way of getting around it. You subsidize energy for a certain group? Neighbors can buy electricity at half price from them. The entire family will come and shower and cook at grandma's because it is so much cheaper.  I know well of which I speak.

[Lord of nothing]

What does that achieve? I cannot think it achieves anything useful except make some politicians think they are doing something useful.

Its simple. In Germany the price for fuel goes up and down in a short time. When the People get of there Jobs the price rise up and get down in the evening. 
So would you like to pay more for the fuel just for the fact you go to work (or back)?

Just have a look at Venezuela.

A Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.

I can buy milk here for 0.55 and I could probably find it for 5.50. People choose according to brand, place, convenience, etc. I can go to Costco in the outskirts and buy in bulk for a very low price or I can buy in central Madrid late at night at a 24 h store for three times as much. I like having that choice and that possibility.

Well here it cost the same because there are just 2 Big Player who dominate the Market.
And a Handfull of smaller Company with <200 Stores each.

Price regulation has almost never resulted in lower prices.

In many Country the Public Transport ist highly Governmental funded. In many case the Public Transport is very cheap.

[David Hess]

Just have a look at Venezuela.

A Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.

Are you referring to something other than economic sanctions?

[Lord of nothing]

Sure did your forgotten about the illegal regime change?
What the USA tried is against Venezuelan Law.
  I gues nobody believe the US follow any Law and regulation even the sign to it.

[Zero999]

Yes, government controls on prices don't work. I heard that at one point in the USSR, bread was cheaper than grain, so farmers would use it to feed their animals!

As far as the free market is concerned, there never has been and never will be a truly free market. The government will always implement regulations and laws, which restrict the economy. Some of the laws will boost economic growth and other hinder it. One thing to note is that not all laws which hinder economic growth are bad for society. For example environmental and safety laws are very important, even though they can be a pain for businesses.

[soldar]

Its simple. In Germany the price for fuel goes up and down in a short time. When the People get of there Jobs the price rise up and get down in the evening. 
So would you like to pay more for the fuel just for the fact you go to work (or back)?

I did not know that existed anywhere but, so what? Price discrimination happens with everything. If they can get a few more cents out of people who have jobs and are in a hurry they can give a break to people who don't have jobs and have time. That's the way everything works. Car rentals, air fares, hotels, transportation, etc. Not only do I not see it as wrong but I see it as a good thing. Retired people with limited disposable income can travel because they are flexible on their travel while business executives pay much more because they have more money than flexibility. I think that is good. If you want to eat in a restaurant at slow hours I have no problem with you getting a lower price than if you want to eat at busy time. Let businesses set their prices freely and they will do what they can to attract those less able to pay.

Just have a look at Venezuela.

A Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.

Oh, give me a break. Venezuela is a basket case solely due to the radically stupid policies and corruption of their government. Just like Cuba and just like any other country with a controlled economy.

In many Country the Public Transport ist highly Governmental funded. In many case the Public Transport is very cheap.

This is true. Local transportation in Spain is heavily subsidized and I am not going to get into it because (1) It is really not possible to have competition in the transportation of a city, (2) I do not think it is run more efficiently than private corporations (plenty of corruption) and (3) promoting public transportation and discouraging private transportation is something needed in the big cities. So this is a case that is not really representative of anything. It is very possible that certain things like this need to be subsidized but that does not mean everything needs to be subsidized or controlled.

I recommend Hayek's "The Road to Serfdom". It is brilliant and enlightning.

[wraper]

Just have a look at Venezuela.

A Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.

Oh, give me a break. Venezuela is a basket case solely due to the radically stupid policies and corruption of their government. Just like Cuba and just like any other country with a controlled economy.

They may have stupid government but they are screwed to this extent mostly thanks to US. But it's off topic, so better to not derail the tread.

[langwadt]

Just have a look at Venezuela.

A Country terrorised by the USA to receive chepa Oil.

Oh, give me a break. Venezuela is a basket case solely due to the radically stupid policies and corruption of their government. Just like Cuba and just like any other country with a controlled economy.

They may have stupid government but they are screwed to this extent mostly thanks to US. But it's off topic, so better to not derail the tread.

they are so inept and corrupt that they didn't need any help to totally fuck up the country. They have did similar to Zimbabwe
nationalize, plunder and destroy their main source  of income, and print more money to "fix" the problem

[soldar]

As far as the free market is concerned, there never has been and never will be a truly free market. The government will always implement regulations and laws, which restrict the economy.

Of course, it depends on how you define "free" but IMHO this is the wrong way of looking at it. To me freedom does not mean no regulation. In fact, no regulation to me is quite the opposite of freedom. You have more freedom in Europe than in Somalia because you have more laws and regulations in Europe to affirm and protect your freedoms.

Market freedom to me is that all rules and regulations apply to everybody equally, that prices are not controlled by regulations but are set freely by buyers and sellers, that the government does not regulate end use but lets the market decide the use. Regulations that protect and promote health or other desirable goals are not against freedom of the market if they apply equally to all actors. Selling cocaine is prohibited to everybody. Good.  Environmental and consumer protection laws if they apply to everybody equally do not go against the freedom of the market.

What is not a free market is when regulations say a product or service must be sold at a discount to a group or industry and at a premium to other group or industry. Maybe in some rare cases it is justified but that is not a free market.  When the government taxes differently the same product when applied to different uses, that is not a free market.

It bothers me that some people paint a caricature of a free market and then say it is evil. A free market is a well regulated market. Having traffic laws that make everybody drive on the right side of the road does not mean less freedom, it means more freedom. Unless you like to drive in Somalia where you probably would not get very far.

If the government says "here are the roads, you can go where ever you like as long as you respect the rules which apply to everybody", that is freedom. If the government (or your wife) says "today you are going to the beach whether you like it or not", I would not consider that freedom. 

[langwadt]

As far as the free market is concerned, there never has been and never will be a truly free market. The government will always implement regulations and laws, which restrict the economy.

Of course, it depends on how you define "free" but IMHO this is the wrong way of looking at it. To me freedom does not mean no regulation. In fact, no regulation to me is quite the opposite of freedom. You have more freedom in Europe than in Somalia because you have more laws and regulations in Europe to affirm and protect your freedoms.

Market freedom to me is that all rules and regulations apply to everybody equally, that prices are not controlled by regulations but are set freely by buyers and sellers, that the government does not regulate end use but lets the market decide the use. Regulations that protect and promote health or other desirable goals are not against freedom of the market if they apply equally to all actors. Selling cocaine is prohibited to everybody. Good. 

and that means the price (profit) on cocaine is 100s of time higher than it would be if legal and
a lot of bad people are getting very very very rich, rich enough to lobby for it to stay illegal to keep
the price up

[soldar]

and that means the price (profit) on cocaine is 100s of time higher than it would be if legal and a lot of bad people are getting very very very rich, rich enough to lobby for it to stay illegal to keep the price up

Well, yes, true but the social problems presented by drugs and how they could best be dealt with is totally outside the scope of this thread. Maybe an interesting conversation for another time. For now all I'll say is that it is one more example of supply and demand. When demand outpaces supply, prices rise.

[Zero999]

As far as the free market is concerned, there never has been and never will be a truly free market. The government will always implement regulations and laws, which restrict the economy.

Of course, it depends on how you define "free" but IMHO this is the wrong way of looking at it. To me freedom does not mean no regulation. In fact, no regulation to me is quite the opposite of freedom. You have more freedom in Europe than in Somalia because you have more laws and regulations in Europe to affirm and protect your freedoms.

Market freedom to me is that all rules and regulations apply to everybody equally, that prices are not controlled by regulations but are set freely by buyers and sellers, that the government does not regulate end use but lets the market decide the use. Regulations that protect and promote health or other desirable goals are not against freedom of the market if they apply equally to all actors. Selling cocaine is prohibited to everybody. Good.  Environmental and consumer protection laws if they apply to everybody equally do not go against the freedom of the market.

What is not a free market is when regulations say a product or service must be sold at a discount to a group or industry and at a premium to other group or industry. Maybe in some rare cases it is justified but that is not a free market.  When the government taxes differently the same product when applied to different uses, that is not a free market.

The problem is market regulations do not apply to everyone equally. They apply less to those with more money and better lawyers, than those who don't.

[soldar]

The problem is market regulations do not apply to everyone equally. They apply less to those with more money and better lawyers, than those who don't.

That is as old as the world.

the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must
- - Thucydides

Doesn't mean we should not strive to make things better.