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Tesla Full Self Driving (FSD) info - interesting stuff!
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wraper:

--- Quote from: apis on May 02, 2019, 02:08:25 am ---
--- Quote from: apis on May 01, 2019, 06:42:47 pm ---For the most part safety means don't crash into something or drive off the road, which you can do deterministically quite well using good sensors (lidar), good maps and traditional control theory. That's what Waymo is doing. Tesla has taken a very different approach, they use only cheap sensors (cameras) and then use machine learning algorithms to convert the video feed into a 3D representation of the world. Such machine learning based computer vision systems have been making really amazing progress the last decades. But as we have seen, the Tesla system sometimes makes fatal mistakes. The old school, but more expensive, Waymo approach is much more robust. Waymo using lidar means they don't have to convert a 2d representation into 3d, they get a very accurate 3d representation directly from the lidar sensor (and on top of that they add sensor information from cameras and radar).

--- End quote ---
I might add that Waymo also uses machine learning, and Tesla has radar sensors as well as cameras (but no expensive LIDAR). But from what I know there is a large difference in their approach and Tesla rely much more on machine learning.

In the last question of this talk the Waymo engineer also mentions they use a hybrid approach, only using machine learning when it improves safety (even if they have to use the more expensive sensors).

"You want to be safe in the environment, so you don't want to make errors in perception, prediction and planning. And the state of machine learning is not at the point where it never makes errors."

https://youtu.be/Q0nGo2-y0xY?t=3774

--- End quote ---
Waymo approach is garbage frankly. They may have a very small number of disengagements when driving in areas with their high detail maps. But when on a large scale, it's a dead end approach. You will never have precise high detail maps for everything, not to say without errors. Also changes happen all of the time, keeping it up to date is a huge challenge on it's own. It's simply unfeasible to make up to date high detail maps for every area. Not to say when it comes to bad weather, LIDAR becomes an erratic piece of garbage.
G7PSK:
I am begining to think that all Tesla related material should be moved to the Dodgy technology page.

https://youtu.be/sAQlLu5ttOk
wraper:

--- Quote from: G7PSK on May 02, 2019, 08:15:54 am ---I am begining to think that all Tesla related material should be moved to the Dodgy technology page.

--- End quote ---
Not again  |O. Just look statistics on how many cars catch fire and think again if you should have posted this. Not to say it's off topic.
https://www.google.com/search?biw=2048&bih=1166&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=HavKXPzgK4aFmwXs0pG4DQ&q=car+fire+garage&oq=car+fire+garage&gs_l=img.3..0i24.17775.19340..19545...0.0..0.58.341.7......1....1..gws-wiz-img.......0j0i67j0i5i30j0i8i30.DwDjUrYwVWE
Marco:

--- Quote from: maginnovision on May 02, 2019, 03:31:33 am ---I'm pretty sure ti has mmwave that can give you size, speed, and direction of travel for detected objects.

--- End quote ---
It's possible, it's just not currently on the cars ... or it wouldn't be running into fire trucks.
janoc:
I will just post link to this here:

https://jalopnik.com/automation-transformed-how-pilots-fly-planes-now-the-s-1834176244

It specifically discusses Tesla's approach to this and why it is a huge problem. There are decades of research on the impact of human factors when dealing with automation (e.g. in aviation) and, frankly, I am shocked how clueless some people are about this, despite this being an engineering forum.

Talking about "disengagement rates" - hello, when the car drives you into wall with a fully engaged automation because it got confused, does that count? Or when it drops the mess in your lap with 3 seconds to react - you will be dead before you realize what is happening, unlike in a plane where you usually have minutes and kilometers of empty air ... Talking how it is safer than human drivers - with only data for this being the oft-quoted claim from Musk using data from Autopilot which is supposed to be used only on highways - where the least number of crashes occurs, etc.

Or someone making the argument that because antiskid systems are better at preventing loss of control than humans are, it somehow follows that automatic cars will be better too (never mind the several orders of magnitude difference in the complexity of the problem ...).

This debate is pretty much the same every time Tesla is mentioned. The fanboys come out of the woodwork and will defend every nonsense that caused people to die in the past only because now it comes from Tesla, so laws of physics and human psychology somehow don't apply anymore.

There is also this:
https://techcrunch.com/2019/05/01/tesla-sued-in-wrongful-death-lawsuit-that-alleges-autopilot-caused-crash/

Yes, that wasn't a fully autonomous car and yes, the driver will most likely be found at least partially at fault - but if Tesla loses this, it will be pretty much game over for both their Autopilot and most likely the fully self driving cars in their current iteration as well. Every lawyer will jump on every single minor scrape hoping to sue bejeesus out of these companies. And they will have only themselves to blame because, as the plaintiffs wrote in the suit, "Tesla is beta testing its Autopilot software on live drivers".

I have nothing against Musk (e.g. what he achieved with SpaceX is amazing!) or Tesla but if we keep the debate to this style where every criticism is brushed away with "I don't hear you, go away, Luddite!", sticking head in the sand and/or mindlessly repeating hype about machine learning as some sort of magic mantra that will fix everything just give it enough data, people will die - in completely avoidable and preventable accidents.


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