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Tesla Full Self Driving (FSD) info - interesting stuff!
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madires:
Another issue most people are not aware of is that the driver assistance systems and systems for autonomous driving can be fooled easily. This was demonstrated several times by security researches at hacker cons. There are a lot problems which need to be addressed before we may think about trusting a self-driving car.
apis:

--- Quote from: wraper on May 02, 2019, 07:51:37 am ---Waymo approach is garbage frankly. They may have a very small number of disengagements when driving in areas with their high detail maps. But when on a large scale, it's a dead end approach. You will never have precise high detail maps for everything, not to say without errors. Also changes happen all of the time, keeping it up to date is a huge challenge on it's own. It's simply unfeasible to make up to date high detail maps for every area. Not to say when it comes to bad weather, LIDAR becomes an erratic piece of garbage.

--- End quote ---
Priority one is no accidents (Waymo has no fatalities, Tesla 3).
Priority two is comfort.
Priority three is that there no annoying disengagements that cause delays. Waymo has the lowest number of disengagements per mile by a large margin. Tesla is still on the "cruise control" stage.

Google has already demonstrated they are able to map the parts of the world where they would want to drive in the foreseeable future, so the need for maps is not much of a limitation. Using maps is safer so why not use them if you can? Clearly they are able to deal with some changes in the map environment or else they wouldn't be able to drive as much as they do.

All sensors have both advantages and disadvantages, but lidar is without a doubt the best type of sensor you can have. Waymo drives in light rain at the very least. If they can't use the lidar in some extreme conditions they will be in the same bad situation as Tesla, having to rely on only cameras and radar. It's not like the lidar is the only sensor. Lidar + camera + radar > camera + radar, no matter how you look at it.

The most difficult part for a self driving car is to take the sensor data and create an accurate representation of the surroundings. That is also one of the most safety critical tasks (you don't want to miss any pedestrians on the road like Uber did, or road dividers or trucks, etc, like Tesla did). So it should be obvious that using the best possible combination of sensors to minimise the risk of confusion is the way to go.

Musk has said the following about lidar apparently:
“In cars, it’s freaking stupid. It’s expensive and unnecessary. And as Andrej was saying, once you solve vision, it’s worthless. So you have expensive hardware that is worthless on the car.”
Basically he's admitting that computer vision isn't good enough yet and that he is betting on that they will solve vision before everyone else.

Tesla has convinced people to collect the road data for them and people even pay a premium to be their safety drivers. If something goes wrong Tesla just blames it on the driver not being alert enough: "it's only cruise control". It's clever marketing if nothing else, but it's killing people. They get a lot of data for free. Machine learning on it's own isn't good enough yet, but Tesla is betting that they will get to good enough before the competition, and by then they will be sitting on more data and hardware with lower marginal cost.

But there is no reason to think other companies like Waymo won't be able to remove the lidar whenever it's safe to do so. It's not like Waymo and others are unable to use more machine learning and less expensive sensors whenever they choose to.
G7PSK:
Might well be the wrong place,probabley the wrong page as well. There are 272.1 million cars on the road in the US last year of which 171,500 caught fire Tesla has built 300,00 cars and from what I can find online there are at least 2 fires a week relating to them. I will leave the math.
wraper:

--- Quote from: apis on May 02, 2019, 03:32:01 pm ---Google has already demonstrated they are able to map the parts of the world where they would want to drive in the foreseeable future, so the need for maps is not much of a limitation. Using maps is safer so why not use them if you can? Clearly they are able to deal with some changes in the map environment or else they wouldn't be able to drive as much as they do.

--- End quote ---
Yow fresh they generally are? 1 year, 2 years? I've seen plenty of situations when map came out yesterday, but does not match actual road which was rebuilt differently a few months ago. Not to say, it's not just satellite view that is required in this case.
apis:

--- Quote from: janoc on May 02, 2019, 01:57:55 pm ---I have nothing against Musk (e.g. what he achieved with SpaceX is amazing!) or Tesla but if we keep the debate to this style where every criticism is brushed away with "I don't hear you, go away, Luddite!", sticking head in the sand and/or mindlessly repeating hype about machine learning as some sort of magic mantra that will fix everything just give it enough data, people will die - in completely avoidable and preventable accidents.

--- End quote ---
The main problem I see is a lot of people who say it's impossible but they don't have an informed explanation of why they believe so or any data to back it up. It's just heated opinions and there seems to be very poor understanding of how these cars work. People on the internet say it's not possible and in the meantime these cars are driving tens of thousands of miles uninterrupted in the real world, apparently unaware it's not possible. Seems pretty disingenuous to me.

I agree there's reason to be critical but it's also annoying that people assume all self driving cars are equal. Tesla is way behind the others in this field. If you want to assess the technology you should look at the technology leader which is Waymo not Tesla.

Mostly the criticism is on the lever "it's impossible, there are too many nuances and edge cases". Well, obviously not, they are already at a level where they can drive completely uninterrupted in California for what corresponds to a year for an average person in the US. (With zero fatalities of course). They've made the cars overcautious to guarantee no accidents, but that means there will be false positives (disengagements), so the difficult part is to get those down to an acceptable level without increasing the risk of serious accidents.

Self driving cars won't take over by 2019 as some (Elon) says, but there's nothing to indicate they won't get there eventually imo.
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