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Tesla model Y 4680 battery pack not very serviceable!

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Psi:

--- Quote from: Psi on August 15, 2022, 06:24:52 am ---
--- Quote from: Miyuki on August 15, 2022, 06:00:54 am ---Tesla is actively anti-repair, ever was, and they are just getting better at this as getting more experience.
And if they will go with it and people still buy it. It will be just an inspiration for other manufacturers.
It is a sad world.

--- End quote ---

I wouldn't say they are anti-repair, that is where the company does things for no reason other than to block repair.

But yeah, lots of issues with repair definitely

--- End quote ---

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2022, 10:40:37 am ---They used aluminium welding in the Model 3, which 95% of reapir shops have no equipment to repair.

--- End quote ---
But did they do that as a "Screw you" to repair shops or because it made the car lighter and boosted range, or because it more sense on their production line?

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2022, 10:40:37 am ---They offer no replacement parts to be ordered by third parties.

--- End quote ---
That has not been true for a while. You can order spare parts for your Tesla now.  They don't have absolutely everything for sale but you can order most things. The time to get them is pretty terrible though.

--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2022, 10:40:37 am ---Flash memory is broken and you need to replace everything in your dash for 1500 or whatever it was.

--- End quote ---
The reason that happened is well known, someone at Tesla accidently left debug mode enabled on the logging system and it was logging everything to flash. It was a simple mistake and not a malicious act to force people to replace their dash console.

I just don't see any obvious anti-repair practices by Tesla. Not saying there are none, just that they don't seem to doing things just to screw with 3rd party repair.  There was that one thing where they would disable supercharging when a car was written off which caused problems for DIY repair of written off cars, but then they started a program where you can get your repaired car checked over by tesla and supercharging reinstated.

Now, on the other hand the following car companies are behind "The Coalition for Safe and Secure Data" which ran TV ads in Massachusetts to try and convince everyone in the state to vote "no" to an automotive right to repair law by saying you would get raped in a parking lot if the bill passes.
GM, Toyota, Ford, Honda, Nissan, FCA, Kia, Hyundai, Subaru, VW/Audi, Mazda, BMW, Daimler, Mitsubishi, Jaguar Land Rover, Volvo

Not saying Tesla is perfect, just that the others are blatantly anti-repair


Siwastaja:

--- Quote from: Psi on August 17, 2022, 12:19:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2022, 10:40:37 am ---They used aluminium welding in the Model 3, which 95% of reapir shops have no equipment to repair.

--- End quote ---
But did they do that as a "Screw you" to repair shops or because it made the car lighter and boosted range, or because it more sense on their production line?

--- End quote ---

Of course to make a better product.

Ignoring poor people in least developed countries (which is fair because they would not buy Teslas), 99.9% of people never have their car welded. Heck, it's quite difficult to even find a repair shop who actually do body repair / welding, 99% of repair is replacing spare parts.

This is the usual "boohoo manufacturers don't make their product repairable", when no one repairs those "repairable" products anyway. From the environmental perspective, if making something better repairable increases the environmental impact by even 1%, it is going to be a net loss!

But do note, products should be made reliable, to have long life, and without planned obsolescence. This is totally orthogonal to being repairable, and making a product less repairable tends to open doors for making the product otherwise better - including more reliable.

Tesla's battery is a good example. Cell-level fixes are difficult, iffy and dangerous anyway. These are hacks that are rarely done. If by impregnating the battery pack in some goo Tesla can make it more safe and reliable, then it obviously needs to go this way. The right thing to do is to keep increasing reliability and lowering cost, and to improve battery recycling, not supporting third party cell swaps.

tszaboo:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm ---
--- Quote from: Psi on August 17, 2022, 12:19:41 pm ---
--- Quote from: tszaboo on August 15, 2022, 10:40:37 am ---They used aluminium welding in the Model 3, which 95% of reapir shops have no equipment to repair.

--- End quote ---
But did they do that as a "Screw you" to repair shops or because it made the car lighter and boosted range, or because it more sense on their production line?

--- End quote ---

Of course to make a better product.

Ignoring poor people in least developed countries (which is fair because they would not buy Teslas), 99.9% of people never have their car welded. Heck, it's quite difficult to even find a repair shop who actually do body repair / welding, 99% of repair is replacing spare parts.

This is the usual "boohoo manufacturers don't make their product repairable", when no one repairs those "repairable" products anyway. From the environmental perspective, if making something better repairable increases the environmental impact by even 1%, it is going to be a net loss!

But do note, products should be made reliable, to have long life, and without planned obsolescence. This is totally orthogonal to being repairable, and making a product less repairable tends to open doors for making the product otherwise better - including more reliable.

Tesla's battery is a good example. Cell-level fixes are difficult, iffy and dangerous anyway. These are hacks that are rarely done. If by impregnating the battery pack in some goo Tesla can make it more safe and reliable, then it obviously needs to go this way. The right thing to do is to keep increasing reliability and lowering cost, and to improve battery recycling, not supporting third party cell swaps.

--- End quote ---
Except, Teslas have notoriously bad reliability.
Cell level repair has been dont on early hybrids very often. Taxi drivers have perfected this, and there are services replacing the battery for as low as 100 EUR.


--- Quote from: Psi on August 17, 2022, 12:19:41 pm ---But did they do that as a "Screw you" to repair shops or because it made the car lighter and boosted range, or because it more sense on their production line?

--- End quote ---
No, I think they did it because they are just not very good at making cars. Just look at one car from close, and see if the panel gaps are symmetrical on the car or not. And the car was already 2.5 tons, so instead of removing the completely useless features, like motors moving the doors, or the 8000 horsepower engines (hyperbole), they had to save weight on the bodywork.
We are already getting better electric cars from others luckily.

thm_w:
Yeah their overall reliability is not good: https://techcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/CR-reliability-2019.png 2021 bit better.

But what we are discussing here is batteries, and I don't think anyone has Tesla battery reliability numbers posted publicly?

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm --- 99.9% of people never have their car welded. Heck, it's quite difficult to even find a repair shop who actually do body repair / welding, 99% of repair is replacing spare parts.

--- End quote ---

Perhaps things are different in Finland, but here in the US every serious body shop and even most backyard bob types have welding capability, usually spot, MIG and torch, along with the relevant flanging tools, etc.  Even after you strip off all the parts that bolt on, you are left with a of sheet metal, usually at least the rear quarter panels, the roof, A/B/C pillars, rocker panels, etc.  You can buy repair sections, but you have to cut/flange/grind/weld them in place. Body shops that do repairs on aluminum cars will have TIG welding capability and so on.  For major frame straightening, they special order rented jigs for each particular model.  Body repair is not 99% bolt-ons, it's almost the opposite.  YMMV.


--- Quote ---Tesla's battery is a good example. Cell-level fixes are difficult, iffy and dangerous anyway. These are hacks that are rarely done. If by impregnating the battery pack in some goo Tesla can make it more safe and reliable, then it obviously needs to go this way. The right thing to do is to keep increasing reliability and lowering cost, and to improve battery recycling, not supporting third party cell swaps.

--- End quote ---

I'm going to have to go  2 for 2 on disagreeing with you today.  My BEV just got a replacement battery that was 'remanufactured' due to the old one leaking.  The particular car and battery that it belongs to  (Ford) have no issues with safety or fire, yet they can be disassembled and repaired as needed.  There's no reason a battery built like this can't be properly repaired at the cell level (although I'm sure they can be improperly repaired as well).   It is already an industry for hybrids and one of the largest aftermarket parts suppliers has remanufactured aftermarket batteries available, along with a number of smaller specialist outfits that have popped up.  Mostly NiMH for hybrids because they've been out longer, but I'm sure they're looking at BEV batteries as well.  Nissan also offers a remanufactured battery as well, so that's at least two OEM's that are clearly in the 'fixable' camp.

https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/find/dorman-car-batteries

https://www.aftermarketnews.com/dorman-products-announces-acquisition-of-re-involt-technologies-and-launch-of-new-oe-solutions-hybrid-drive-battery-program/

https://www.greentecauto.com/

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