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| Tesla model Y 4680 battery pack not very serviceable! |
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| Miyuki:
--- Quote from: bdunham7 on August 17, 2022, 11:36:27 pm --- --- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm --- 99.9% of people never have their car welded. Heck, it's quite difficult to even find a repair shop who actually do body repair / welding, 99% of repair is replacing spare parts. --- End quote --- Perhaps things are different in Finland, but here in the US every serious body shop and even most backyard bob types have welding capability, usually spot, MIG and torch, along with the relevant flanging tools, etc. Even after you strip off all the parts that bolt on, you are left with a of sheet metal, usually at least the rear quarter panels, the roof, A/B/C pillars, rocker panels, etc. You can buy repair sections, but you have to cut/flange/grind/weld them in place. Body shops that do repairs on aluminum cars will have TIG welding capability and so on. For major frame straightening, they special order rented jigs for each particular model. Body repair is not 99% bolt-ons, it's almost the opposite. YMMV. --- Quote ---Tesla's battery is a good example. Cell-level fixes are difficult, iffy and dangerous anyway. These are hacks that are rarely done. If by impregnating the battery pack in some goo Tesla can make it more safe and reliable, then it obviously needs to go this way. The right thing to do is to keep increasing reliability and lowering cost, and to improve battery recycling, not supporting third party cell swaps. --- End quote --- I'm going to have to go 2 for 2 on disagreeing with you today. My BEV just got a replacement battery that was 'remanufactured' due to the old one leaking. The particular car and battery that it belongs to (Ford) have no issues with safety or fire, yet they can be disassembled and repaired as needed. There's no reason a battery built like this can't be properly repaired at the cell level (although I'm sure they can be improperly repaired as well). It is already an industry for hybrids and one of the largest aftermarket parts suppliers has remanufactured aftermarket batteries available, along with a number of smaller specialist outfits that have popped up. Mostly NiMH for hybrids because they've been out longer, but I'm sure they're looking at BEV batteries as well. Nissan also offers a remanufactured battery as well, so that's at least two OEM's that are clearly in the 'fixable' camp. https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/find/dorman-car-batteries https://www.aftermarketnews.com/dorman-products-announces-acquisition-of-re-involt-technologies-and-launch-of-new-oe-solutions-hybrid-drive-battery-program/ https://www.greentecauto.com/ --- End quote --- Previous Tesla models used 5kWh or similar modules that theoretically can be changed easily, but it was banned by Tesla for no other reason than selling you whole battery packs. And also suitable for usage for solar storage when no longer good for EVs. Scrapping and trying to recycle the whole 80kWh pack for some minor issues is not a good way to design It is good for the business as the old cars just die and have no way to repair. And I wonder what percentage of cars had the battery replaced in 10 year period. (Either under warranty and in cases not covered) This is a big issue as a car body can easily last 20+ years. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm ---But do note, products should be made reliable, to have long life, and without planned obsolescence. This is totally orthogonal to being repairable, and making a product less repairable tends to open doors for making the product otherwise better - including more reliable. --- End quote --- No. Products should be repairable AND reliable AND economic at the same time. Economic and reliable counter eachother though. You can make a super reliable battery but that will cost a fortune making it a commercial non-starter. In the real world reliable is relative to the price but by being repairable at low cost, you still get an end product with a low TCO. In the end you'll always be competing based on TCO. |
| HighVoltage:
It is not only the battery pack. Try to get any other part for a Tesla as a replacement part. At the end you get it, but what a hassle. We have a family member with a Tesla and he needed a new bumper. Any other car manufacturer has a parts department but not for this one. It took him a few weeks to get a new bumper. And don't ask about the cost! |
| tszaboo:
--- Quote from: nctnico on August 18, 2022, 11:43:10 am --- --- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm ---But do note, products should be made reliable, to have long life, and without planned obsolescence. This is totally orthogonal to being repairable, and making a product less repairable tends to open doors for making the product otherwise better - including more reliable. --- End quote --- No. Products should be repairable AND reliable AND economic at the same time. Economic and reliable counter eachother though. You can make a super reliable battery but that will cost a fortune making it a commercial non-starter. In the real world reliable is relative to the price but by being repairable at low cost, you still get an end product with a low TCO. In the end you'll always be competing based on TCO. --- End quote --- For example VW's MEB platform. They make battery modules, one type, which the ID3 gets 6 or 8 depending on range variant, the ID 4 gets 2 more and so on (example). One BOM material, one production line for the modules. If better cell chemistry comes along, you can replace it with that, without redesigning the car. They can be replaced, shipped to be serviced, and so on. Or the Toyota e-TNGA platform. Or the Hyundai platform. VW launched 12 different car models on the same platform in 3 years. We got the memetruck from Tesla in the meantime. |
| Psi:
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 17, 2022, 06:04:14 pm ---But do note, products should be made reliable, to have long life, and without planned obsolescence. This is totally orthogonal to being repairable, and making a product less repairable tends to open doors for making the product otherwise better - including more reliable. --- End quote --- I don't agree, making something repairable doesn't make it unreliable or give it less lifespan. Can you give an example of where you think that is true? The only downside to making a product more repairable is cost. The initial design/RnD cost a little more to make it easy to take apart and production costs are a little higher for screws instead of glue etc.. But the cost isn't much, maybe 10-20% at most. But that makes the product last significantly longer because it's easy/cheap to 'keep it going' instead of buying a new one. The reason we don't have repairable products is that manufactures have an incentive to make them as cheap as possible and make them fail as soon as possible. And the reason they have that incentive is because the general public do not shop for products based on total cost of ownership, they shop based on purchase price. To fix the problem we need education and perhaps a standard system that shows the total cost of ownership for every product to the purchaser or maybe its expected lifespan based on quality and reparability. eg, this product costs $100 but is built to last 1 year vs this other product that cost $150 is built to last 5 years. Once you educate the public and gamify the system then manufactures will compete to make products that lasts the longest in order to capture the market for people who always purchase the products with the highest lifespan. Ya just have to change the narrative from "Cheaper products = more sales and more profit" "Longer lasting products = more sales and more profit" |
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