Author Topic: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW  (Read 6345 times)

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Offline BU508ATopic starter

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Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« on: February 18, 2020, 11:39:17 am »
Hi,

looks like, that the automobile industries can learn one or two things from Tesla.

Money quote from the article linked below:

"What stands out most is Tesla's integrated central control unit, or "full self-driving computer." Also known as Hardware 3, this little piece of tech is the company's biggest weapon in the burgeoning EV market. It could end the auto industry supply chain as we know it."

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Tesla-teardown-finds-electronics-6-years-ahead-of-Toyota-and-VW2

Interesting times are ahead, I think.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2020, 01:27:19 pm »
Are the AI chips Tesla designed ASICs or some off the shelf chip that has been remarked to obscure its identity?
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Online wraper

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2020, 01:31:21 pm »
Are the AI chips Tesla designed ASICs or some off the shelf chip that has been remarked to obscure its identity?
It's a completely custom chip designed from the ground up.
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2020, 01:33:21 pm »

This custom hardware is one of the most interesting things about Tesla.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2020, 01:36:12 pm »
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2020, 01:51:10 pm »
Are the AI chips Tesla designed ASICs or some off the shelf chip that has been remarked to obscure its identity?

ASIC designed by an in-house Tesla team, diffused in Austin, TX by Samsung Semiconductor.

It's the largest neural-net processor out there in volume production (Intel is due to launch a general purpose AI accelerator next year.)  Essentially each device is about 5x faster than the GTX1060 of the prior generation.

There are two independent ASICs per car, with independent power supply, clock, communication and camera feeds, which provides redundancy for full self driving (if/when that is achieved.)
« Last Edit: February 18, 2020, 01:54:32 pm by tom66 »
 
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Offline ataradov

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2020, 05:41:25 pm »
While it is impressive, I'm not sure that this is 100% necessary or adds a lot of actual value.

If you look at what aomma.ai can do with a single camera and essentially a cell phone processor, I'm not sure all that dedicated AI hardware is all that necessary.
Alex
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2020, 05:52:12 pm »
While it is impressive, I'm not sure that this is 100% necessary or adds a lot of actual value.

If you look at what aomma.ai can do with a single camera and essentially a cell phone processor, I'm not sure all that dedicated AI hardware is all that necessary.

As I understand it, the Tesla solution uses a lot less power than something implemented on general purpose hardware would do.
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2020, 05:57:46 pm »
But who cares? That general purpose processor uses minuscule amount of power compared to motors and probably even headlights. Sure, saving power gives you an edge,  but investing money into custom silicon is probably not the greatest idea.

Unless you know that car business is not sustainable and you are really in the business of selling those chips. Which is fine, other car vendors would just buy them, the same way they buy processors now.
Alex
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 06:04:50 pm »
But who cares? That general purpose processor uses minuscule amount of power compared to motors and probably even headlights. Sure, saving power gives you an edge,  but investing money into custom silicon is probably not the greatest idea.

Unless you know that car business is not sustainable and you are really in the business of selling those chips. Which is fine, other car vendors would just buy them, the same way they buy processors now.

I can't remember which Tesla presentation I saw it in,  but the power saving is significant.  Even the efficient Tesla processor uses several hundred watts when "thinking hard".  It makes a big difference on an electric car, apparently.
 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2020, 06:06:36 pm »
comma.ai uses a cell phone. It does not consume that much that you would notice. So I'm not sure what it is thinking hard about.
Alex
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2020, 06:12:43 pm »

I think the reasoning behind designing their own processor is covered in this presentation:

 
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Online wraper

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2020, 07:37:06 pm »
If you look at what aomma.ai can do with a single camera and essentially a cell phone processor, I'm not sure all that dedicated AI hardware is all that necessary.
Except it often tries to drive you off the road. Driving capability and doing it reliably are 2 very different things. Also don't forget this hardware is meant for FULL self driving.
 
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2020, 07:42:41 pm »
Honnestly? Not sure I care... Self driving capability is not on my list of things I look for in a car. Especially not with an "agile" approach to SW development..
 
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Offline maginnovision

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2020, 08:03:35 pm »
It's meant for full self driving but so was the last hardware. I really think it depends on whether it's needed though. Depending on how many cameras they rely on it may be best to go overboard and leave some power for overhead/future sensing capabilities.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #15 on: February 19, 2020, 08:03:01 am »
That's a very incompetent article.

The traditional Carmakers usually never design electronics by themselves (any more), they define the architecture in the car, and order the electronics from big suppliers, like Denso, Bosch, Valeo, Continental, and so on.

Their processing units (µP) in the different modules are of course automotive specific designs to fulfill AEC Q100, for example, and are tailored to the required features, performance and price. Very rarely commercial off-the-shelf processors are used.

There's a transformation already going on in the Automotive Industry, one part being to merge electronics into Silver Boxes.
So why should one assume, that the traditional suppliers won't be able also to design such electronics, or not already offering that?
It depends only on what the OEMs want to have.

Merging too many functions into one box only is a bad idea, like Infotainment and Autonomous Driving, because you have too many tasks in parallel, which will endanger the safety functions, and such a central system for everything wiould get too complex, SW and HW wise.

And also TESLA did not reach AD level 5, as these many deadly accidents of TESLA cars prove.. so why this worshiping of this PCB, but ignoring the lack of sufficient AI power?

Frank
 
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Online tom66

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #16 on: February 19, 2020, 08:15:57 am »
comma.ai uses a cell phone. It does not consume that much that you would notice. So I'm not sure what it is thinking hard about.

Comma.ai is not a redundant setup.  It uses a single camera, and relies on the phone's software not crashing and the non-ECC RAM functioning correctly in all circumstances.

This is fine while you have a human in a loop but can never achieve full self driving (with a distracted or completely absent human) because it could not handle a software/hardware crash or non-ECC memory with a bit flip, etc.

 

Offline ataradov

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2020, 08:19:50 am »
Comma.ai is not a redundant setup.
Yes, sure. But it shows just how much is possible using a single processor and a simple camera. Putting 5 of those processors in a car is cheaper and probably better than designing a crazy AI ASIC.
Alex
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2020, 08:29:12 am »
Merging too many functions into one box only is a bad idea, like Infotainment and Autonomous Driving, because you have too many tasks in parallel, which will endanger the safety functions, and such a central system for everything wiould get too complex, SW and HW wise.
Modern SoCs support virtualisation. Look at NXP's iMX8 for example which also targets automotive markets. Using virtualisation it can -for example- drive both the instrument cluster and infotainment system as if it is two entirely seperate systems.

Comma.ai is not a redundant setup.
Yes, sure. But it shows just how much is possible using a single processor and a simple camera. Putting 5 of those processors in a car is cheaper and probably better than designing a crazy AI ASIC.
I have a feeling that getting the few % extra right for a self driving vehicle (especially poor visibility conditions) needs an exponential amount of extra processing power. I don't think that a simple setup using a smartphone is very representative.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 08:33:37 am by nctnico »
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Offline Jeroen3

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2020, 09:04:35 am »
The traditional Carmakers usually never design electronics by themselves (any more), they define the architecture in the car, and order the electronics from big suppliers, like Denso, Bosch, Valeo, Continental, and so on.
Which is exactly their weak point. Too many layers. You can't easily reuse talent or knowledge because you don't own it.
EaaS (engineering as a service) is a lifetime subscription, not building much value over time.

Merging too many functions into one box only is a bad idea, like Infotainment and Autonomous Driving, because you have too many tasks in parallel, which will endanger the safety functions, and such a central system for everything wiould get too complex, SW and HW wise.
Based on the eMMC bug their infotainment is some other system or at least processor or card. It may be sandwiched against this. That I do not know.
 

Offline Nerull

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2020, 09:09:58 am »
If you look at what aomma.ai can do with a single camera and essentially a cell phone processor, I'm not sure all that dedicated AI hardware is all that necessary.
Except it often tries to drive you off the road. Driving capability and doing it reliably are 2 very different things. Also don't forget this hardware is meant for FULL self driving.

The telsa hardware likes to drive you into the back of emergency vehicles.

I don't really see the point of gushing over "FSD" hardware that doesn't seem anywhere near being ready for FSD.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2020, 09:30:45 am »
The traditional Carmakers usually never design electronics by themselves (any more), they define the architecture in the car, and order the electronics from big suppliers, like Denso, Bosch, Valeo, Continental, and so on.
Which is exactly their weak point. Too many layers. You can't easily reuse talent or knowledge because you don't own it.
EaaS (engineering as a service) is a lifetime subscription, not building much value over time.


Denso once belonged to Toyota, Visteon to FORD and Delphi to GM.

It is and has always been a make-or-buy decision.
Obviously, in a long process, these OEMs decided  that it's more cost efficient to outsource the engineering, losing competency and maybe profit margin and also being more dependent on suppliers.

But anyhow, all these traditional car makers are profitable, but TESLA is not (yet). TESLA for sure is only at the beginning of such a decision process.

Maybe this situation might change for the others also, as the classical combustion engine - powertrain might be obsolete in the future, replaced by even more electronic / electrical components.

Frank
 

Offline thinkfat

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2020, 10:18:30 am »
But who cares? That general purpose processor uses minuscule amount of power compared to motors and probably even headlights. Sure, saving power gives you an edge,  but investing money into custom silicon is probably not the greatest idea.

It's not the power consumption they're afraid of, it's the power dissipation that goes with it. Automotive electronics need to work under very high temperatures. They're fighting for every Watt they can avoid to not increase their problem.
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Offline jeremy

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2020, 11:00:13 am »
I have no experience with Tesla cars, but what is wrong with old designs? Just because a design is newer, doesn’t make it better. Look at the 3458A for example; if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I would have liked to see actual criticism of specifically what makes the Tesla system better, not just “Tesla future, Toyota old and smelly”. I still have no idea which is better after reading that article  :-//
 
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Offline BU508ATopic starter

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Re: Tesla teardown finds electronics 6 years ahead of Toyota and VW
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2020, 11:18:02 am »
I have no experience with Tesla cars, but what is wrong with old designs? Just because a design is newer, doesn’t make it better. Look at the 3458A for example; if it ain’t broke don’t fix it.

I would have liked to see actual criticism of specifically what makes the Tesla system better, not just “Tesla future, Toyota old and smelly”. I still have no idea which is better after reading that article  :-//

My understanding of the article is not, which is better, Tesla or Toyota / VW.
My understanding is: what makes this to the supply chain for the companies which produces automobiles and their suppliers. In Germany, lots of jobs are in the supplier sector for the automobile branch. If those suppliers aren't needed any more, this would have a huge impact to the economy, not alone in Germany.
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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