Luton car park fire: ultimately not caused by EV

[coppice]

I think it's more likely that the car park was built with, say, 1.8m wide spaces and pillars to accommodate that.  Now cars are bigger and are 1.8m wide, they need 2.2m wide spaces to open doors.  So you end up with painted lines that often don't make sense because moving the pillars is nearly as complex as demolishing the whole building and starting again.

When would 1.8m spacing ever have worked? There was nothing more mainstream in 1970 than a Ford Cortina, which was 1.65m wide, not including mirrors. Take a nasty little car from that era, like the Austin Allegro. That was 1.60m wide. The size of cars has always varied mostly in length, rather than width. Lets take something tiny, like a Fiat 850 from the 1960s - 1.42m wide. With a 1.8m spacing even a 1.42m wide car doesn't give you a lot of space to get out, especially as that it a 2 door car, and even on a small car a 2 door design requires more space to get out.

[tom66]

I think it's more likely that the car park was built with, say, 1.8m wide spaces and pillars to accommodate that.  Now cars are bigger and are 1.8m wide, they need 2.2m wide spaces to open doors.  So you end up with painted lines that often don't make sense because moving the pillars is nearly as complex as demolishing the whole building and starting again.

When would 1.8m spacing ever have worked? There was nothing more mainstream in 1970 than a Ford Cortina, which was 1.65m wide, not including mirrors. Take a nasty little car from that era, like the Austin Allegro. That was 1.60m wide. The size of cars has always varied mostly in length, rather than width. Lets take something tiny, like a Fiat 850 from the 1960s - 1.42m wide. With a 1.8m spacing even a 1.42m wide car doesn't give you a lot of space to get out, especially as that it a 2 door car, and even on a small car a 2 door design requires more space to get out.

I'll admit I didn't actually look up the width of 1980's car parking spaces.  But take the Golf - my ID.3 is effectively the electric variant of that.

Mk2 Golf (1980s) - 1610mm wide (3-door)
Mk7 Golf (2020s) - 1790mm wide (5-door; the 3-door is discontinued)

https://www.carsized.com/en/cars/compare/volkswagen-golf-1980-3-door-hatchback-vs-volkswagen-golf-2019-5-door-hatchback/front/

It has grown by 18cm.  So if car parking spaces were, say, 1.9-2m wide to accommodate 1.6-1.7m wide cars in the 80's (giving 30cm egress room), then they need to be 2.1-2.2m wide now to accommodate 1.8-1.9m wide cars.  The standard for new car parks is 2.2m.

Remember as well the Golf is no longer as popular as it once was.  A more common car might be something like a Tiguan midsize SUV, which is 1.85m wide. And then you get land-beasts like the Discovery which is 2.1m wide.  Probably see so many of those parked in disabled bays illegally because they can't fit their ludicrous pedestrian-crushing tank anywhere else.

[coppice]

Remember as well the Golf is no longer as popular as it once was.  A more common car might be something like a Tiguan midsize SUV, which is 1.85m wide. And then you get land-beasts like the Discovery which is 2.1m wide.  Probably see so many of those parked in disabled bays illegally because they can't fit their ludicrous pedestrian-crushing tank anywhere else.

Apart from outliers like the Fiat 850, cars have always been about 1.6m to 1.8m wide. This hasn't changed much. If you are going to have two adults comfortably side by side, with a gearbox between them, you are going to get to that sort of size. Of modern cars, the last one I found narrow was the Renault Zoe, and that is 1.56m wide. Being built ground up electric, without a gearbox in the way, I guess they felt is was OK to shrink the width a bit, but its not by a massive amount.

The Discovery seems to be 1.99m wide. 2.1m would be an outlier. Even a Rolls Royce Sceptre is only 2.02m wide. Interestingly the Rolls Royce Silver Shadow, from the 1970s, was only 1.8m wide, which wasn't much different to a family car, even though the doors were quite thick.

[nctnico]

In the Netherland the default size for a parking space is 250x500 cm.

[Thomas]

In Norway recommended size increased from 250x500cm to 260x500cm in 2023.

[G7PSK]

According to this man who trains firefighters the biggest threat in EV's is not the traction battery as that's well protected it's the auxiliary lithium battery of 12 to 48 volts that posses the greatest risk of fire as the are not mechanically protected in the event of a crash, lithium batteries are now being fitted to ICE vehicles as well sometimes as after market, I wonder if the land rover in the Luton fire had one of those as there is video of flames coming out of the vehicle horizontally like a blow torch.

https://youtu.be/Xl4LtE3wiGA?si=YArSu_ZaBElc05hQ   

[tom66]

According to this man who trains firefighters the biggest threat in EV's is not the traction battery as that's well protected it's the auxiliary lithium battery of 12 to 48 volts that posses the greatest risk of fire as the are not mechanically protected in the event of a crash, lithium batteries are now being fitted to ICE vehicles as well sometimes as after market, I wonder if the land rover in the Luton fire had one of those as there is video of flames coming out of the vehicle horizontally like a blow torch.

https://youtu.be/Xl4LtE3wiGA?si=YArSu_ZaBElc05hQ

Unless it had an aftermarket modification, the Discovery Sport 3.0 TDV6 in the Luton fire was fitted with an ordinary 12V lead acid battery.  It was not a hybrid model so there was no need for a lithium battery (like a 36/48V lithium ion battery for a mild hybrid system).

[G7PSK]

There must be quite few vehicles now with aftermarket lithium batteries, I very nearly purchased one for a stand by generator last month, I ordered a new lead acid for it and it was DOA would not accept a charge they sent a replacement and that was DOA as well, it was a toss up did I get another one or a lithium which in some ways might be more suitable for some thing standing idle for long periods. In the end I persuaded the vendors to supply a different brand and this time they did not even bother to collect the dud one, so at some time I will weigh it in along with the original, that's another reason I decided to keep wit the lead acid the scrap yards only accept batteries marked Pb and you get paid lithium you don't. 

[tom66]

There must be quite few vehicles now with aftermarket lithium batteries, I very nearly purchased one for a stand by generator last month, I ordered a new lead acid for it and it was DOA would not accept a charge they sent a replacement and that was DOA as well, it was a toss up did I get another one or a lithium which in some ways might be more suitable for some thing standing idle for long periods. In the end I persuaded the vendors to supply a different brand and this time they did not even bother to collect the dud one, so at some time I will weigh it in along with the original, that's another reason I decided to keep wit the lead acid the scrap yards only accept batteries marked Pb and you get paid lithium you don't.

I don't see anything particularly unusual about the fire that would indicate it had a lithium ion battery.

Also, it's notable that when it was on fire, the lights were still on... at least at the start:



Which would suggest that any fire was not directly impacting the battery... since you'd expect those to die as soon as anything like that happened.  I don't know of any lithium ion cell that can still function whilst in a conflagration.  In fact, the sudden drop of cell voltage to 0V and impedance going towards infinity is a common characteristic of thermal runaway and is used to detect the onset of it when testing new cell protection mechanisms.

I find it odd that it is unbelievable that a car full of hot components adjacent to oil, fuel, ATF, coolant, brake fluid, etc. can have a fire, it must be a lithium ion battery that caused it.  I even saw some suggestion of a faulty vape pen at one point, which doesn't add up with smoke being seen coming from the front of the car at the parking barrier.

[G7PSK]

But it does look remarkably like the blow torch effect, I suppose it could have been very high wind bot that has not been mentioned anywhere. But the wind could have been funneled by the garage structure.

[tom66]

The fire report notes an above-average 10mph wind and open-sided construction of the MSCP as contributing to the development of the fire.  So that might be what you are noticing but honestly it just looks like a normal vehicle fire to me, I cannot see the blowtorch you mention.  Remember that the front components of many cars are plastic now so once that bumper starts burning it will contribute a lot of fuel to the fire in that area.  I don't think they are required to make the bumper out of fire-retardant materials.

[floobydust]

A sprinkler system would not help much and maybe make it worse if there is a lithium fire?
Sprinkler systems in an open outdoor structure would not work. The piping and heads etc. can freeze up. Luton seems to get that cold.

In Canada, the sprinkler piping for apartment complexes can be (cold) in attic/roof spaces so we'll use heat trace cable and elaborate controllers to keep all piping, valves etc.  above freezing, with national fire codes having many strict requirements for construction, pressure monitoring etc. Very expensive.

[Monkeh]

A sprinkler system would not help much and maybe make it worse if there is a lithium fire?

Li-ion batteries contain no free metallic lithium. They're not metal fires, they're chemical fires. There's no putting them out, but delaying the spread could well save a structure. In this case, where one wasn't even the origin of the fire, that's a moot point to the subject of sprinklers. A functioning fire suppression system could well have saved this relatively new structure.

Sprinkler systems in an open outdoor structure would not work. The piping and heads etc. can freeze up. Luton seems to get that cold.

A long solved problem. You charge the system with air, when a head opens the release of air pressure opens the supply valve.

[Siwastaja]

It has grown by 18cm.

This is easily noticeable difference. Even though seating space and middle console are similar, doors are "thicker" nowadays for side impact safety reasons alone.

Parking buildings built in 1990's or earlier with fixed pillar positions simply do not work with 2010's or later vehicles, unless they were originally built more loosely than absolutely necessary.

That ~20cm difference sounds small but it's the difference between passengers being able to get out comfortably from 1980's-1990's car, versus having to first let out the passengers, then park, and do the opposite when leaving, so that only the driver has to squeeze out uncomfortably.

[Marco]

A sprinkler system would not help much and maybe make it worse if there is a lithium fire?

To create a situation where sprinklers fail to keep the area surrounding the fire source below ignition temperature, you need a lot more than an EV battery.

If it was actually a pile of metallic lithium sure, but it ain't.

[floobydust]

I checked dry pipe systems under NFPA 13 "Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems" (which Canada uses).
It's weird because here they build these four storey wooden frame apartment complexes which commonly get gutted during a fire. It spreads across in the roof trusses (where there are no sprinklers) - those are for the rooms below
Builders wanted heating systems. They must be just cheap bastards. Why not just go dry?
Unless false trips due to leaks are too costly? I'm not sure what volume of air has to be vented to activate the water supply valve.

NFPA 13 they don't like antifreeze or foam in low temps. PVC piping as well has many extra hoops to go through, for the cheap builders.

[nctnico]

It has grown by 18cm.

This is easily noticeable difference. Even though seating space and middle console are similar, doors are "thicker" nowadays for side impact safety reasons alone.

Parking buildings built in 1990's or earlier with fixed pillar positions simply do not work with 2010's or later vehicles, unless they were originally built more loosely than absolutely necessary.

That ~20cm difference sounds small but it's the difference between passengers being able to get out comfortably from 1980's-1990's car, versus having to first let out the passengers, then park, and do the opposite when leaving, so that only the driver has to squeeze out uncomfortably.

Fun story: A long time ago I drove an old VW Golf (mk2 model IIRC). I needed to park it in a hurry and found a narrow parking space. Somebody had parked his /her car outside the parking space leaving only a narrow space between a wall and the car. So I lined my car up perfectly with the parking space, left the hand brake off (level floor) and pushed it into the parking space where it fitted very snuggly