General > General Technical Chat
The BIG EEVblog Server Fire
madires:
--- Quote from: David Hess on April 10, 2021, 03:24:27 pm ---Diesel also has the disadvantage of requiring special containment provisions because it makes a hell of a mess if it spills, which also brings the EPA into it. For this reason and the others you mention, sites which are remote tend toward propane now.
--- End quote ---
So propane doesn't need any special containment provisions? >:D Diesel is easy to handle, to refill and to get hold of. Anyhow, you simply use the fuel which is easily available and allowed by local regulations. If you go for a battery system only you need deep pockets, because it has to provide several MW for a few days.
Tom45:
At a place I worked 50 years ago we had backup power for two large mainframes. The mainframes were fed by motor generator sets so switchover timing wasn't too critical. The top floor of the building was filled with lead acid batteries to hold over until the diesel generator got going.
The generator was buried in a concrete pit under the parking lot with a diesel tank above ground.
The whole thing worked well until one stormy period when power was so flaky they decided to just run continuously off the generator until the weather calmed down. No problems for a couple of days until someone forgot to order more diesel. Oops.
No, it wasn't me.
calzap:
--- Quote from: madires on April 10, 2021, 03:47:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: David Hess on April 10, 2021, 03:24:27 pm ---Diesel also has the disadvantage of requiring special containment provisions because it makes a hell of a mess if it spills, which also brings the EPA into it. For this reason and the others you mention, sites which are remote tend toward propane now.
--- End quote ---
So propane doesn't need any special containment provisions? >:D Diesel is easy to handle, to refill and to get hold of. Anyhow, you simply use the fuel which is easily available and allowed by local regulations. If you go for a battery system only you need deep pockets, because it has to provide several MW for a few days.
--- End quote ---
Any fuel stored onsite obviously must have a primary container. In the U.S., propane tanks containing liquid propane must be outdoors. There are usually building setback requirements as well. So, if there is a leak, it wafts away as a gas. Large diesel tanks in most jurisdictions must have secondary containment in case of a leak. If indoors, there are usually fire sprinkler or other suppression and protection requirements as well.
Mike in California
David Hess:
--- Quote from: madires on April 10, 2021, 03:47:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: David Hess on April 10, 2021, 03:24:27 pm ---Diesel also has the disadvantage of requiring special containment provisions because it makes a hell of a mess if it spills, which also brings the EPA into it. For this reason and the others you mention, sites which are remote tend toward propane now.
--- End quote ---
So propane doesn't need any special containment provisions? >:D Diesel is easy to handle, to refill and to get hold of. Anyhow, you simply use the fuel which is easily available and allowed by local regulations. If you go for a battery system only you need deep pockets, because it has to provide several MW for a few days.
--- End quote ---
Propane requires a pressure tank but is actually *safer* if there is a leak or fire. A diesel leak makes a hell of a mess which is where the EPA gets involved. A propane leaks leaves nothing to clean up.
Propane tanks handle fire just fine. When the pressure relief valve activates, the propane exhaust is burned and evaporation cools the tank until the propane is exhausted. Just make sure that the exhaust is directed in a safe direction. I know of one case at a mountaintop repeater site where the exhaust was directed at the blockhouse. When personal showed up to find out why all of the repeaters had failed after a brush fire, they found that the blockhouse was completely destroyed (melted) by the jet of burning propane.
james_s:
--- Quote from: calzap on April 10, 2021, 02:46:59 pm ---I’m curious as to how many data center standby generators are powered by diesel versus propane. In the U.S., diesel is usually more expensive per kw-hr produced than propane, especially because EPA requires such generators to use ultralow sulfur diesel fuel. Diesel has shelf-life issues which require ongoing testing and maintenance, and replacement in some cases. Propane has an infinite shelf-life. Most building codes in the U.S. do not allow liquid propane inside buildings. So, if there is no outside storage area, propane can’t be used.
--- End quote ---
I've seen natural gas fired backup generators which have the obvious advantage of fuel being piped in rather than stored on the premises. Propane, that I have not seen other than for small portable generators and some that are used in RVs where you already have propane available. I think diesel pretty much owns the large backup generator market, the engines are the same as used for things like semi trucks, motor yachts and locomotives. I don't think anybody is making huge spark ignition engines anymore although there have been some really big ones in the past.
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