Author Topic: The Chevy Dolt - We Built Them - But They Did The Eleanor Rigby - Nobody Came  (Read 88543 times)

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Online nctnico

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The timing couldn't be more perfect. An Israeli battery exchange company called 'Better Place' just went belly-up after losing 800 million dollars. I wonder how Tesla's investors respond to those plans.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tom66

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Dear EEVBees:

--Tesla has announced plans for battery swapping stations. See below link.

http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/tesla-hints-battery-swap-thats-faster-filling-gas-tank-6C10382051

"The electric sedan uses thousands of D-Cell-sized lithium-ion batteries hidden in the underlying platform of the vehicle. Apparently there’s a quick way to pull them out and slide in replacements."

--Thousands of D cells? Does anybody know if this is true? We will know it is succeeding when battery thieves become a problem.

"Never wrestle with pigs. You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."
George Bernard Shaw 1856 - 1950

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Clear Ether

They are 18650 sized, 18mm diameter 65mm length. However, the pack is a sealed unit. So, Tesla will have to swap the whole unit unless they have not mentioned something yet (perhaps they will upgrade battery packs to multi-pack units but this seems unlikely.)

 

Offline Stonent

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I think it would be fun to drive around in a Fisker Karma and offer moustache rides to people.   :-DD
The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.
 

Offline SgtRockTopic starter

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Greetings EEVBees:

--Maybe Musk should start smoking something, or try a Foster's and Toad Whiz cocktail, then maybe he can get back into his gourd. See the below link for the latest from Reuters about the battery swap stations.

--http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/21/tesla-swap-idUSL2N0EW23220130621

"A battery pack swap will cost between $60 and $80, about the same as filling up a 15-gallon gas tank, Musk said. Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack."

--Why not loan the folks a kitty cat to keep them company until they bring back their original battery pack. Seriously, there is so much wrong with the above policy, I do not even know where to start. So now you get to pay just as much as the unsmug, but all trips have to be round trips, or there is huge fee, huh. And if you turn in a duff pack, the fee will equal the price of a new pack, for which you will get a half duff one. Fail! Muck had better go back to calling tow truck drivers, liars.

--Now if, Tesla owned all the batteries, and swaps could be made for $20, with no worries, and no return trips then Musk would have a winner.

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
Eric Arthur Blair (George Orwell) 1903 -1950

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Online tom66

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I actually think the battery swap has real potential, but the implementation is key.

I don't think they mentioned that the pack had to be returned to the same station? Presumably returning it to a different station could be supported. In order to do this, the batteries may need to be software limited in some way (to make cell degradation fair), or perhaps a little like a phone subscription where you subscribe to a 60kWh battery service for $300/month and an 85kWH service for $400/month or so -- the actual car being considerably cheaper than an ICE due to the significantly simpler drivetrain.

I think the price should be lower but it creates an interesting dilemma. Do you consider 20 to 30 minutes of supercharging time more valuable than $60 to $80 swap fee?

It solves one of the major complaints of EVs and that is charge time -- 90 second swap is impressive.  Now you can drive crazy for ~20min and swap packs in 90 seconds at a time. With eventually larger packs you can go further on a charge -- maybe these will be available as loner packs. And now you can charge the batteries at the station from purely renewable power as you actually have somewhere to put it.

Just hope they don't go how better place went...
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 09:03:04 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline justanothercanuck

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--Why not loan the folks a kitty cat to keep them company until they bring back their original battery pack.

So first you complain about the price of the battery pack, which you may or may not have to replace after 8 years, and now you're complaining that they implemented a quick-swap method because you have to pay for them?  You can't get everything for free and handed to you on a silver platter.  :blah:
Maintain your old electronics!  If you don't preserve it, it could be lost forever!
 

Offline SgtRockTopic starter

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Dear Tom:

--Good idea. I would not have mentioned the return trip except for this sentence, from the original pull quote in my previous post.

"Drivers who choose to swap must reclaim their original battery on their return trip or pay the difference in cost for the new pack." [Hence the Kitty Cat.]

--Other than that, your ideas, although a little pricey, do indeed have merit.

--I am not complaining, I am not even a Tesla owner. I am criticizing, and I admit, I could be wrong. I just think that throwing out the idea of electric motoring being cheaper than gas motoring is not going to succeed. It seems to me that the arguments of EV advocates would cut a lot more mustard if they were to lay off with the ad hominem, about haters, complainers, personality disorders, and so forth and deal in the realm of ideas.

P.S. When I typed in the word hominem the spell checker suggested I replace it with Eminem.

"He was an embittered atheist, the sort of atheist who does not so much disbelieve in God as personally dislike Him."
Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950

Best Regards
Clear Ether
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 09:48:09 pm by SgtRock »
 

Online tom66

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If Tesla are doing it that way, IMO, they are doing it wrong.

It would be best implemented in one of three ways:-
- Renting a pack on a subscription service. The pack would belong to you, but wouldn't exist as a single pack, but any one of the packs at the swapping station, with the specifications you have subscribed to. You get a guaranteed capacity pack when you swap. There would likely have to be some annual mileage limitation.

- Software limiting your rented pack to the same capacity as your original pack. No incentive to not return it. Tesla keep your pack; you keep the limited Tesla one.

- Owning the car and renting the battery, but as above and the pack is different each time you swap, with no mileage limitation.

Things I noticed from the pack swapping video:
- When the battery was removed, all power to instrumentation, touchscreen, interior and lights is lost, so they go dark. Presumably the 12V power is lost, despite a 12V battery being available. I would hope they would keep the instrumentation available, by powering it from the 12V battery while the DC-DC for the main 12V is lost. It would ideally have a progress bar to indicate the time remaining before swap complete. In addition, it would make it faster: about 15 seconds after the swap was complete the car was stationary as it waited for the touchscreen etc to reboot. This might be sorted with a future software update.

- The mechanism for swapping the pack is unclear. Does the car need to be lined up perfectly? Is it prevented from moving during the swap? The suspension appears to rise before, but this may be user activated. Without 12V power, how do they maintain brake pressure to prevent vehicle movement?

- How do Tesla stop battery swap fraud (fake batteries swapped for real ones?)
 

Online tom66

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Interesting point from Mr Musk recently:

Q: [Something like: the new pack you get may not be much newer than the one you have]
Elon: That's right, yes exactly. If you got a pack which is essentially the same as the one you dropped off, you don't need to drop it off again.


So their may be an option when swapping: Fresh pack vs. Standard. And you don't need to return it then.

90 second "recharges" are very impressive and hard to beat. Obviously a lot more infrastructure needs to be built to support them. And there's always the free super charging option.

Next steps are to get the price below $30k to make electric vehicles more affordable. If Tesla doesn't flop somehow, then I can see them holding a large part of the $30k EV market in the next few years.
 

Offline SgtRockTopic starter

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Dear Tom:

--Thanks for the update and the latest correction. I do not really have any objection to Musk doing this, I just think it would be a lot better if it were more financially advantageous to drivers, but Musk must know what is doable. Since he is no longer borrowing taxpayer monies, if he and his stockholders should lose money, there is no harm done. If he makes more billions, more power to him, and them. But before he can provide an all electric EV for 30K, he will have to get the battery price well below 30K. When Barron's attempted to question him on this point, he terminated the interview. See below link.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/barrons-tesla-lemon-without-cheaper-141435766.html

--For those who are interested, the below link is a Reuters article about the chronology leading up demise of Fisker. DOE is to be congratulated, for pulling the plug before all of the money had been looted. Other government subsidized green projects had better connections inside the government, allowing management to top off their pockets, before the well went dry. In every case they kept pleading for more money, even though hope was gone.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/17/us-autos-fisker-specialreport-idUSBRE95G02L20130617

"Progress is not an illusion, it happens, but it is slow and invariably disappointing."
Eric Arthur Blair - George Orwell 1903 -1950

Best Regards
Clear Ether
 

Online tom66

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Current estimated pack prices for the Model S 85kWh come at around $15,000 ~ $17,500. This price is actually very low for the energy density (~$200/kWh.) Tesla aim for at least 25% margin on every Model S sold, so they've got a large margin to play in.

So it's plausible that we could see a $12k to $15k pack in a few years time. The electric drivetrain -- excluding battery -- is very cheap to make. Only a few thousand dollars. (Motor+Inverter cheaper than all but smallest ICE.) So $25k to $35k with 10% margin appears doable. Obviously, you'd be looking at a rather basic vehicle: probably around 200 to 300 mile range, 150 to 200bhp, and probably no significant fancy touchscreen like in the S, nor sporty performance. Maybe it won't be under the Tesla badge either; they may wish to use that for their luxury vehicles only.

So it will still be a compromise compared to an ICE, but it will likely pay for itself due to the low cost of electricity and free supercharging -- if it remains free for GenIII.

Something else interesting; it was recently announced each swap station costs around $500,000 to build and will have around 50 battery packs in rotation. That makes for less than $10,000 per pack, before you even exclude the costs of construction and machinery -- so how are they going to achieve this feat? Are batteries a lot less expensive than we've been led to believe?  Perhaps they're not included in that cost, but it seems strange to not include that.

Apparently, while idle, these packs will be used as local grid storage. If they use half of each pack for grid storage, 43kWH and have 50 packs and 5 swap stations in the first few years, this gives the grid an effective 10.75MWh of energy storage. Useful for solar/wind power, would make it one of the largest such storage stations.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 10:20:10 pm by tom66 »
 

Online nctnico

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AFAIK the most expensive part of a car is the wiring because it needs to be made by hand and put into a car by hand. All in all I don't think the drive train of an EV is cheaper than an ICE. The power electronics come with strict cooling requirements. Even at 95% efficiency a 20kW drive for an EV needs to get rid of 1kW of heat.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lemmegraphdat

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So far the electric car is a very expensive but cool looking golf cart.
Start right now.
 

Online tom66

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AFAIK the most expensive part of a car is the wiring because it needs to be made by hand and put into a car by hand. All in all I don't think the drive train of an EV is cheaper than an ICE. The power electronics come with strict cooling requirements. Even at 95% efficiency a 20kW drive for an EV needs to get rid of 1kW of heat.

Really? I was under the impression it was the metal chassis of the car itself. Most cars have something like 30 to 50 individual modules for each control system. But they could be broken down in to a few single modules, it's just been decided that they shouldn't, andfor various reasons, we should also have long cabling bundles connecting them.

The IGBTs in the inverter that Tesla are probably using are likely 600V, 1200A devices, which can be purchased for a couple hundred dollars a piece in half-bridge modules. Extra stuff like gate drive logic, control systems etc are cheap in comparison. The cooling requirements are in the range of a few tens of kilowatts, less than that of an ICE, and the temperature maximum of around 100°C is about the same.

The actual inverter can achieve 99% efficiency, when you add motor, cabling losses, battery losses 85~90% is achievable.
 

Offline lewis

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According to the Dept. for Transport, we, in the UK, drove 303.8 billion miles in 2011. And according to Wiki, the total UK electricity consumption in 2008 was 344.7TWh.

And because all the oil's run out, everyone has to drive about in EVs. So at 0.3kWh per mile, 303.8 billion miles equates to 91.1TWh. That represents just over a quarter of the entire UK annual consumption.

With increasing population and decreasing generating capacity is this really viable? It seems chemical fuel, of some type, is here to stay for some time yet.

I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered.
 

Online tom66

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I don't think we'll see everyone (>99%) using EVs for at least 50 to 100 years. I think 50% market penetration would take at least 30 to 40 years as it is. So there would be time to build additional power generation.

As it stands, we may be lucky and have 50 years of oil left at current rates, but we have over 300 years of coal to burn. In an ideal world the majority of our energy would come from renewables, but I don't see that happening for a long time.
 

Online nctnico

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According to the bio-fuel Wiki page bio-fuel already provides for about 3% of the world wide fuel consumption and bio-fuel just starts to kick in. Many new cars are suitable to run on bio fuel. If only more gas stations where selling bio-fuel...
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tom66

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According to the bio-fuel Wiki page bio-fuel already provides for about 3% of the world wide fuel consumption and bio-fuel just starts to kick in. Many new cars are suitable to run on bio fuel. If only more gas stations where selling bio-fuel...

Bio fuel (from food crops like corn) is a bad idea in my opinion. Since it will increase the price of bio fuel plants considerably, thus increasing food prices. Fuel you can live without; food you cannot.

Now if it could be done using something inedible like algae or bacteria then it could work, but I'm not sure if that has been practically implemented yet.
 

Online nctnico

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According to the bio-fuel Wiki page bio-fuel already provides for about 3% of the world wide fuel consumption and bio-fuel just starts to kick in. Many new cars are suitable to run on bio fuel. If only more gas stations where selling bio-fuel...

Bio fuel (from food crops like corn) is a bad idea in my opinion. Since it will increase the price of bio fuel plants considerably, thus increasing food prices. Fuel you can live without; food you cannot.
That used to be the case but newer bio fuels are made out of agricultural leftovers and don't affect food production. The effect could actually be reverse. By using more of the plants the price of food can go down.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline lewis

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the price of food can go down.

Here's hoping!
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Online tom66

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The worry is farmers decide that producing fuel using the main material is better than using offcuts, so it would be preferred if the source used was completely unusable as food (or at minimal demand such that prices would not be critical. e.g. not wheat or corn, because those are pretty essential.)
 

Online nctnico

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I doubt that. Growing food is always profitable. Over here they grow lots of food and flowers in greenhouses using lamps. They use so much light they flood the night's sky. You can even see them clearly from space:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ZMF5Xmkps9I/TyPmyoWOgiI/AAAAAAAAAow/p-QCKHTVu9c/s1600/benelux_at_night.jpg
The large yellow areas (which saturate the camera) between Amsterdam and Rotterdam are greenhouses.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 10:09:35 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 


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