Author Topic: the dark side of cobalt  (Read 15715 times)

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Offline langwadt

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #50 on: July 11, 2023, 08:21:13 pm »
adding few more C's makes it a lot easier to transport
Given that cryogenic methane is used already in trucking, I doubt they are going to pay for the convenience.

methane has a much worse GWP than CO2 so even a tiny bit of leakage might make things worse

propane has a much better GWP better and much easier to handle
 
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Offline tom66

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #51 on: July 11, 2023, 08:25:21 pm »
Try to convince a judge of that. The law clearly stipulates that any activity that deals with the vehicle counts as work time. Fast charging is something you'd need to monitor and probably free up the spot when the truck is done charging.

Nonsense.  It's not like filling with diesel where constant attendance is essential.  Fast charging is plug, start and go and do something else.  At best you could define setting up the charge, and stopping the charge as working time, but that's maybe a minute or two either side, say 5 minutes total.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #52 on: July 11, 2023, 08:49:11 pm »
... there's no other way to reach a 45% emission reduction target otherwise.

Not a problem - our government has now decided we're not going to hit the targets.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2023, 09:05:21 pm »
Why is it that activists are always telling others what to do, instead of doing it themselves first [snip]
Because if they do that, they'll end up living in caves or huts made from tree branches.

freezing, hungry, in th dark ...
I believe the plan goes: No meat, no heat, no air-conditioning, no cars, no flying, no babies. Sit at home, alone, poke your phone in the dark. Eat those bug burgers, that simultaneously make you fat and provide protein that you cannot digest. Cut off some body parts, and pay the lifetime subscription to hormones and insulin. Own nothing and be happy.
And if you think this is conspiracy theory, just go on the website of the WEF and this is their mission statement.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2023, 09:09:20 pm by tszaboo »
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2023, 09:13:27 pm »
Why is it that activists are always telling others what to do, instead of doing it themselves first [snip]
Because if they do that, they'll end up living in caves or huts made from tree branches.

freezing, hungry, in th dark ...
I believe the plan goes: No meat, no heat, no air-conditioning, no cars, no flying, no babies. Sit at home, alone, poke your phone in the dark. Eat those bug burgers, that simultaneously make you fat and provide protein that you cannot digest. Cut off some body parts, and pay the lifetime subscription to hormones and insulin. Own nothing and be happy.
And if you think this is conspiracy theory, just go on the website of the WEF and this is their mission statement.

Yes, that's the plan promoted by the WEF. No doubt about it, they've been very clear and loud about it, and (almost) everyting is open for everyone to read, nothing is hidden whatsoever.
You're forgetting a lot in the list, like the 4th industrial revolution, the role of AI, and so much more.

The only question that remains is what kind of real power the WEF has over governments - which is the point some may oppose as being a conspiracy theory.
And maybe the WEF has absolutely no power or influence over anything or anyone indeed, who knows.
 

Offline langwadt

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2023, 09:16:37 pm »
Why is it that activists are always telling others what to do, instead of doing it themselves first [snip]
Because if they do that, they'll end up living in caves or huts made from tree branches.

freezing, hungry, in th dark ...
I believe the plan goes: No meat, no heat, no air-conditioning, no cars, no flying, no babies. Sit at home, alone, poke your phone in the dark. Eat those bug burgers, that simultaneously make you fat and provide protein that you cannot digest. Cut off some body parts, and pay the lifetime subscription to hormones and insulin. Own nothing and be happy.
And if you think this is conspiracy theory, just go on the website of the WEF and this is their mission statement.


wood phone power by hand cranking?
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2023, 05:33:40 am »
Ofcourse hydrogen is less energy efficient than batteries, generating energy as electricity to power electrolysis to make hydrogen, and then putting that hydrogen in a fuel cell to convert back to electricity to produce kinetic energy is always going to be less efficient than storing the electrical energy directly in a battery, but I'd say this isn't such a problem really.

Why?

Well, in the sort of ideal future grid we should be working towards there will be ample energy to spare. Nuclear fission power can't be throttled back easily, it runs at close to full power all the time, (fusion power would perhaps be the same once available?) so there would be excess energy in the grid much of the time. Energy efficiency is not the top priority, sure it is nice to have, but the future we should be planning for is one of cheap plentiful energy, exactly as the original hopes for atomic power suggested. When you've got energy to spare, the chemical nature of H2 fuel, and its energy density makes it superior to batteries (not to mention speed of refuelling as vs time to charge up batteries) even if you lose a large proportion of energy in the conversion steps. Futures planning for electric cars optimised for a grid too feeble to supply the true needs of a place are completely missing the point, the only type of grid which can usefully supply an industrialised civilisation is one which is producing the sort of levels of excess power that energy efficiency is no longer the top concern.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2023, 05:48:51 am »
Forget lithium-ion batteries; their energy density is laughable.

I don't know if that was an ironic comment or not, but you realize the the energy density of current li-ion, already exceeding 300Wh/kg at cell level, is just fine for wheel-based mobility? It's not like it's making electric vehicles significantly heavier anymore. Of course new improvements are welcomed, but their importance is dropping. I remember the analytical discussions from 2009 or something when the conclusion was that energy density needs to double and cost needs to halve. From 150Wh/kg to 300Wh/kg, that's what happened except the cost is at one quarter from around $400/kWh to around $100/kWh (even better inflation-adjusted actually). It was a gradual breakthrough with no any single big jump, but small improvements accumulating.
 

Offline Infraviolet

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2023, 05:52:44 am »
Batteries, 300Wh/kg, hydrogen fuel 33000Wh/kg.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2023, 05:58:43 am »
And your mother's ass, 3300000000000000Wh/kg.

What matters in engineering is if a specification is good enough, not "bigger is better". For example, we use 25V rated capacitors on 12V systems, not 450V even when they are available, because those come with other compromises.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #60 on: July 12, 2023, 08:08:54 am »
Forget lithium-ion batteries; their energy density is laughable.

I don't know if that was an ironic comment or not, but you realize the the energy density of current li-ion, already exceeding 300Wh/kg at cell level, is just fine for wheel-based mobility? It's not like it's making electric vehicles significantly heavier anymore. Of course new improvements are welcomed, but their importance is dropping. I remember the analytical discussions from 2009 or something when the conclusion was that energy density needs to double and cost needs to halve. From 150Wh/kg to 300Wh/kg, that's what happened except the cost is at one quarter from around $400/kWh to around $100/kWh (even better inflation-adjusted actually). It was a gradual breakthrough with no any single big jump, but small improvements accumulating.

Indeed.  You can see this in the cost of electric vehicles too.

In 2011, a Nissan Leaf cost £21,500 and came with a 24kWh battery and 80kW motor.  In real terms, that's £30,207, but that didn't even include the battery, you had to lease it at up to £150 per month depending on your mileage.

Today, you can get for £27,000, so less in inflationary terms, a Peugeot e-208 with a 50kWh battery and 150kW motor.  You would own the car outright if you paid that much, there's no battery leasing option.

So battery capacity has doubled whilst price has fallen.

e-208 weighs 1530kg and Leaf 24kWh weighs 1505kg.  Battery capacity double but the vehicles weigh almost the same unladen.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #61 on: July 12, 2023, 08:15:53 am »
Nuclear fission power can't be throttled back easily, it runs at close to full power all the time

Are you sure? Perhaps you mean it can't be throttled quickly?

edit: A widespread misconception
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 08:18:22 am by PlainName »
 

Offline connectTek

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #62 on: July 12, 2023, 08:52:10 am »
Totally agree.
0.03% is the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and we contribute 3% of that ,Apparently.
A poofteenth of a poofteenth.
Global warming is a scam.
That's why it's now called "climate change", of which it has been changing since the earth began,  4+ billion years before man was here.
 

Offline connectTek

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #63 on: July 12, 2023, 08:53:54 am »
And water vapour, ,Clouds, is 1000 time worse than CO2,
Let's ban water!
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #64 on: July 12, 2023, 09:29:58 am »
Nuclear fission power can't be throttled back easily, it runs at close to full power all the time

Are you sure? Perhaps you mean it can't be throttled quickly?

Yeah, it can be throttled just fine, always could. Why it usually wasn't is because during the old days of smaller changes in electricity pricing, running at less than full power simply means all the costs that are constant per lifetime or constant per operational hour make each MWh produced more expensive. Only the fuel cost really scales down with power, and fuel cost is insignificant compared to everything else.

Nowadays with larger price fluctuations, including negative prices, nuclear is throttled more than ever. It's a financial disaster, but throttling manages the disaster from becoming even bigger.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #65 on: July 12, 2023, 10:32:08 am »
This is also a reason why nuclear plants think they should be able to benefit from green hydrogen subsidies.

Maybe they should benefit for subsidy only on hydrogen generated when electricity spot prices are under some given benchmark?
« Last Edit: July 12, 2023, 01:05:01 pm by Marco »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #66 on: July 12, 2023, 11:00:06 am »
Totally agree.
0.03% is the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and we contribute 3% of that ,Apparently.
A poofteenth of a poofteenth.
That is not correct. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has doubled from around 200ppm to over 400ppm (and rising). It is pretty easy to attribute that to the burning of fossil fuels by humans. And you have to keep in mind the oceans and seas have absorbed a large amount of CO2 as well to to point that the acidity of the water has risen to levels that are harmfull to sea life (like coral). CO2 emission is a real problem for all of us.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline vad

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #67 on: July 12, 2023, 11:54:05 am »
Today, you can get for £27,000, so less in inflationary terms, a Peugeot e-208 with a 50kWh battery and 150kW motor.  You would own the car outright if you paid that much, there's no battery leasing option.
That explains why they don't sell Peugeots here in the USA! With a mere 50kWh, a trip to the nearest Costco would require an overnight stop for a full battery recharge.
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #68 on: July 12, 2023, 12:11:17 pm »
Today, you can get for £27,000, so less in inflationary terms, a Peugeot e-208 with a 50kWh battery and 150kW motor.  You would own the car outright if you paid that much, there's no battery leasing option.
That explains why they don't sell Peugeots here in the USA! With a mere 50kWh, a trip to the nearest Costco would require an overnight stop for a full battery recharge.

Really, that explains why the ICE versions with 400+ mile range aren't sold there?

And, as a counter-argument, the Research Triangle, as they call it, the combined statistical area of Raleigh, Durham, and Cary in North Carolina has about one fifth of the total population of the state.. all within about 50 miles as the crow flies, or one quarter the range of an e208, of a Costco. Easily time to recharge that in the time you're in the store. And just about half that population is located within those three cities, putting them within 20 miles. There's two in Charlotte (there goes another million people), one in Greensboro (half a million or so), and so on.

The false narrative of everyone in the US being too far away from services and work for even shorter range EVs needs to die already.
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #69 on: July 12, 2023, 12:21:20 pm »
50kWh alone doesn't tell you a lot, you have to factor in the consumption of the car which depends on the weight and size (aerodynamic loss). In a small passenger vehicle where 5 people struggles to fit, 50kWh is plenty. In a large SUV it's quite crappy. (Of course also depends on the use, but I'm assuming we are talking about generic cars that are suitable for 99% of users or so; even the EVs of 2010 would have been OK for say 70-80% but that does not cut it.)
 

Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2023, 12:21:33 pm »
Secondly using a car's battery as storage means using a battery in a way that it hasn't been designed for and you'll be wearing the most expensive part of the car without getting the monetary value for that wear. The idea is similary stupid as using solar roadways to heat roads in the winter. The power companies love it though because it means a free lunch. No, it is making money with a lunch on top for them.
That has been debunked by trials in the UK - the charge rates and levels were shown to have no negative impact on battery lifetime, and in some cases actually improved things by keeping the battery in its most healthy SoC range for more of the time.
However home V2G is probably too expensive and inconvenient in practice to be worthwhile. Using it for home solar storage & backup is more likely to be useful, as well as fleet type situations where usage patterns are more predictable and hardware is more concentrated.
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2023, 12:25:54 pm »
That has been debunked by trials in the UK - the charge rates and levels were shown to have no negative impact on battery lifetime

Yes. People who assume that cycling a li-ion cell is like incrementing a cycle counter or something always make this mistake. Most wear happens when charging at relatively high current near full battery. V2G cell wear can be easily optimized next to nothing by some simple limits in place, that's not the problem. The question is more about the cost of the bidirectional inverter. The low-hanging fruit is to just cut charging current to zero when necessary, and that already has a lot of potential for grid stabilization / cost management.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2023, 01:10:55 pm »
Could you imagine using a UPS where your colleagues randomly take the battery away to power the coffee maker or something? A bit ridiculous, but grid storage using cars that will be going AWOL, and typically all at the same time, strikes me as somewhat similar. I guess they figure that if the car is gone then there won't be anyone using electricity at the home, but that's not a valid assumption so I'm sure they don't!
 

Offline tom66

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2023, 04:29:56 pm »
Secondly using a car's battery as storage means using a battery in a way that it hasn't been designed for and you'll be wearing the most expensive part of the car without getting the monetary value for that wear. The idea is similary stupid as using solar roadways to heat roads in the winter. The power companies love it though because it means a free lunch. No, it is making money with a lunch on top for them.
That has been debunked by trials in the UK - the charge rates and levels were shown to have no negative impact on battery lifetime, and in some cases actually improved things by keeping the battery in its most healthy SoC range for more of the time.
However home V2G is probably too expensive and inconvenient in practice to be worthwhile. Using it for home solar storage & backup is more likely to be useful, as well as fleet type situations where usage patterns are more predictable and hardware is more concentrated.

It doesn't even have to be using the battery to charge and discharge either.

A lot of resource is expended on grid stability, this is expensive.  Often times there can be an excess of wind but because it is going to vary a lot the turbines are shut down and gas is used instead.

Well why not push that into cars... If you just say "I need 60% for my commute tomorrow" the car can charge up to 80% if there's an excess of wind or whatever, and it can happen anytime the car is plugged in.

1 million cars at 7kW is 7GW of dispatchable load... about half of the UK's installed wind power.  So while making hydrogen is a good idea for storage, even better is to use EVs.
 

Offline tom66

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Re: the dark side of cobalt
« Reply #74 on: July 12, 2023, 04:33:33 pm »
Yes. People who assume that cycling a li-ion cell is like incrementing a cycle counter or something always make this mistake. Most wear happens when charging at relatively high current near full battery. V2G cell wear can be easily optimized next to nothing by some simple limits in place, that's not the problem. The question is more about the cost of the bidirectional inverter. The low-hanging fruit is to just cut charging current to zero when necessary, and that already has a lot of potential for grid stabilization / cost management.

The neat thing about bidirectional inverters is the capability usually comes for free once you replace the input diode bridge with a synchronous rectifier.  The power stage is usually a full bridge topology, with a synchronous output rectifier, and the PFC will often have a synchronous switch too.  All of these devices are used to improve efficiency and reduce cooling requirements.  At 7kW it makes a real difference.

This is what the MG4 charger does: it's a fully synchronous design, so it can charge the car at 7kW and discharge at 7kW too. 
 


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