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the dark side of cobalt
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PlainName:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 12, 2023, 05:43:10 pm ---Car manufacturers work with li-ion cell manufacturers and get their own warranties, as manufacturers know their products better than the simple public datasheet says. Rest assured, we understand what we are doing even if you don't.

--- End quote ---

Suppose you're manufacturing, for the sake of illustration, a garden hose. Hoses wear out (just go with it) and most available hoses state that they will pass 10,000 gallons before requiring replacement. Your hose is nothing special, but you advertise it as going at least 50,000 gallons. Not only that, you guarantee - via lifetime free replacement - that it will. Naturally, any discerning gardener will buy your hose in preference to the competition that clearly sells an inferior product. But... your hose is exactly the same; the only difference is your warranty. You figure that most gardeners sprinkle at most a couple of gallons a day when they water the plants on the patio, and they will never come close to 10,000 gallons. The very few that use the hose to fill a swimming pool twice a year will just ask for a warranty replacement and you'll send them two, to keep them providing 5-star reviews for service and validation of your (known but you to be rubbish) guarantee.

Why wouldn't car manufacturers play that game too?
langwadt:

--- Quote from: nctnico on July 12, 2023, 06:14:36 pm ---
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on July 12, 2023, 05:43:10 pm ---Car manufacturers work with li-ion cell manufacturers and get their own warranties, as manufacturers know their products better than the simple public datasheet says. Rest assured, we understand what we are doing even if you don't.

--- End quote ---
Ofcourse, and every car manufacturer will try to make a product that just lasts long enough for the customer to be happy under normal usage circumstances. V2G is like having your ICE car run stationary to power your home from the alternator. It will cause wear on the engine.

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and for most people running the engine (or using the battery) just an hour or two each day it going easily double the usage
vad:

--- Quote from: nctnico on July 12, 2023, 11:00:06 am ---
--- Quote from: connectTek on July 12, 2023, 08:52:10 am ---Totally agree.
0.03% is the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and we contribute 3% of that ,Apparently.
A poofteenth of a poofteenth.

--- End quote ---
That is not correct. Since the beginning of the industrial revolution the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has doubled from around 200ppm to over 400ppm (and rising). It is pretty easy to attribute that to the burning of fossil fuels by humans. And you have to keep in mind the oceans and seas have absorbed a large amount of CO2 as well to to point that the acidity of the water has risen to levels that are harmfull to sea life (like coral). CO2 emission is a real problem for all of us.

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While rising CO2 levels in recent history (over the past 70 years) is a well-documented fact, it is doubtful that there were reliable measurements of this gas concentration at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Therefore, observation #1 suggests that followers of Greta Thunberg tend to exaggerate and extrapolate.

The potential harm of such minuscule atmospheric CO2 concentration levels to marine life is debatable. The oldest known coral fossils are 500 million years old, and throughout the past half billion years, the Earth has experienced much higher atmospheric CO2 concentrations. Somehow corals survived that. The current CO2 concentration level is harmless to humans, and higher CO2 levels are beneficial to the Plantae Kingdom. Thus, observation #2 indicates that Greta Thunberg's followers don’t know what they are talking about.

Lastly, as the third and final observation, it should be noted that life expectancy in Europe was approximately 35 years just prior to the Industrial Revolution. Today, it has increased to 80 years. Fossil fuels have played a significant role in this remarkable progress.
tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on July 12, 2023, 05:23:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on July 12, 2023, 12:21:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on July 11, 2023, 08:39:42 am ---Secondly using a car's battery as storage means using a battery in a way that it hasn't been designed for and you'll be wearing the most expensive part of the car without getting the monetary value for that wear. The idea is similary stupid as using solar roadways to heat roads in the winter. The power companies love it though because it means a free lunch. No, it is making money with a lunch on top for them.

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That has been debunked by trials in the UK - the charge rates and levels were shown to have no negative impact on battery lifetime, and in some cases actually improved things by keeping the battery in its most healthy SoC range for more of the time.

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That is not possible. Just check the warranty specs on any Li-ion battery. It will tell you a maximum amount of stored energy that is guaranteed not to degrade the battery to a certain percentage. Ofcourse you can get lucky and have a battery that performs better than advertised but you can also be unlucky. With ever improving manufacturing technologies, battery manufacturers will become better and better at making their battery as worse as they can and still meet the specifications. And if you think about it logically, it makes perfect sense. Otherwise the ever lasting Li-ion cell would have been invented a long time ago. IOW: the trial data is anecdotal evidence at best but not something to rely on.

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But, an EV battery is typically ~60kWh and charged/discharged at say 7kW.  Whereas a home battery is typically 10kWh and charged/discharged at up to 5kW.  The 'C' rate and therefore cell heating is much higher, and this is a daily thing with these batteries. 

Also, for some car manufacturers, there is no specified total MWh discharge on the pack, for instance, MG warranty theirs at 7yr/80k miles regardless of any V2H function.  VW do apply a discharge limit, but it's some 10MWh on top of the normal 8yr/100k mile warranty, 70% capacity guarantee.  (100k miles at 3.5 miles per kWh implies an additional 28MWh of total discharge throughput.)  Kia/Hyundai also don't specify any limit.
tom66:

--- Quote from: vad on July 12, 2023, 09:34:43 pm ---While rising CO2 levels in recent history (over the past 70 years) is a well-documented fact, it is doubtful that there were reliable measurements of this gas concentration at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. Therefore, observation #1 suggests that followers of Greta Thunberg tend to exaggerate and extrapolate.

The potential harm of such minuscule atmospheric CO2 concentration levels to marine life is debatable. The oldest known coral fossils are 500 million years old, and throughout the past half billion years, the Earth has experienced much higher atmospheric CO2 concentrations. Somehow corals survived that. The current CO2 concentration level is harmless to humans, and higher CO2 levels are beneficial to the Plantae Kingdom. Thus, observation #2 indicates that Greta Thunberg's followers don’t know what they are talking about.

Lastly, as the third and final observation, it should be noted that life expectancy in Europe was approximately 35 years just prior to the Industrial Revolution. Today, it has increased to 80 years. Fossil fuels have played a significant role in this remarkable progress.

--- End quote ---

The problem with CO2 isn't the absolute figure - it's that life has adapted to ~300ppm CO2 and oceans with a pH of about 8.2.  We can already see the impact of coral bleaching due to acidification and rising temperatures. 

As this shifts, life becomes less able to adapt.  Will it adapt over time?  I have very little doubt, but we could still see ecosystems collapse, food chains failing, crop failure etc. in "human timescales".    This is so very problematic when we are so dependent on these ecosystems.   There is also the lesser, but still significant concern of rising sea levels and changes in weather patterns.  If the +3C predictions come true - they are definitely "worst case" - we are looking at +/-15deg around the equator essentially being uninhabitable for most of the summer months, due to drought, famine and extreme temperatures.  This will push people out of this area, seeking safety and food.  Something close to 1 billion could be displaced.  War could be triggered due to local resource exhaustion.

As for reliable CO2 measures: there are direct methods to measure back at least 100k years by looking at ice bubbles in Greenland and Antarctica.  The results between these two sets of measurements correlate very well, and they align with shorter term measurements (~500 years in trees for instance, as well as air bubbles trapped underground.)

There is absolutely no doubt that fossil fuels have improved our lives (though I would argue modern medicine is more significant -- surgeons didn't wash their hands before surgery until the early 1900s!)  Any future shift has to account for the benefits of fossil fuels whilst reducing the harm caused.  I think we can do it but it will require how we use energy to change.
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