Author Topic: The Dubai Lamp  (Read 14257 times)

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Offline amykTopic starter

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The Dubai Lamp
« on: January 14, 2021, 02:24:40 pm »
Very interesting...


 
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Offline mikeselectricstuff

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 03:43:09 pm »
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Online tszaboo

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 05:46:17 pm »
So TLWD: EU filaments LED  have LEDs in them. Dubai has 8, with half the current per LED.
It is more efficient, because LEDs are pushed less, reaching 200lm/W.
And it is not sold here.

Short research: Ikea, Phillips seems to be selling about 100lm/W lamps here.
Assumption: We are sold inferior product that uses more electricity than state of the art stuff, and breaks faster.

Honestly, I'm not sure if I care. I haven't installed any dumb lamp in my house, only retrofitted some extremely rarely used fixtures with LED bulbs. I stand by my decision that I'm not buying any lamps with sockets anymore, and all the lamps need to have brightness and color temperature control.
 

Online tom66

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2021, 05:52:12 pm »
So, are all other lamp fittings banned?  No LED fluro fittings for workshops, etc?  Seems a bit crazy.

The power consumption of lighting is a small proportion of a household's overall energy consumption so it does seem like a rather unusual ruling.

Maybe tell Dubaians to wear lighter clothing and turn the AC up by a degree or two instead,  I'm sure that'll have more of an impact than lights!
 

Offline edy

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 11:14:16 pm »
I think there is some political reason for this ruling and not scientific. It has very little to do with actual "improving efficiency" or saving energy costs domestically. This is all about world-stage positioning and marketing of the city. As bigclivedotcom mentions, the lamp was produced as part of a collaboration...

"Philips and Dubai developed the LED bulb under the patronage of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Prime Minister of the UAE and Ruler of Dubai. The new Philips Dubai Lamp delivers 200 lm/W, making it the first commercially available lamp to break the 200-lm/W barrier".

So what I think it going on here is, Dubai invested in a venture with Philips and wants to recoup that investment, show an example of technological innovation, spur on national pride, diversify the economy, and promote young people to get into tech industry, among other things. By forcing every new building to buy the lamp they can scale up manufacturing of their venture, perhaps lower the cost and eventually profit on global sales once the price is low enough. How much of the tech in the lamps is actually Philips and how much did Dubai help in terms of their domestic scientific talent, I don't know. Given they say "under the patronage of", it seems to me that Dubai talked to Philips about their R&D targets and made a deal to bank-roll them for some exclusivity deal that would meet their political ideological agenda.

That agenda is Dubai as a forward-thinking futuristic city that is green and efficient. Although the entire region is backed by oil, cities within these countries are trying to diversify their economies into tech, financial, tourism, real estate and so on, and escape from a reliance on oil, which will stabilize the regions long-term, raise up the middle class, improve education and so on.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 11:16:48 pm by edy »
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Online Zero999

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 11:35:53 am »
I can understand setting regulations regarding reliability and efficiency, but only allowing one manufactor of light bulb stinks of corruption to me.

I doubt there's anything to stop Phillips from selling the same lamp in other countries, under a different name of course, but there probably isn't enough demand to make it worthwhile. How many consumers are willing to pay several times the price for a lamp which is twice as efficient, even if it lasts four times as long? Most consumers just get the cheapest one. Lots of people would still buy incandescent lamps, because they're cheap, even though they end up costing more than LEDs, when the price of energy used during their life, is taken into account. Governments, all over the world, have introduced laws, mandating the minimum acceptable efficiency, to prevent incandescent lamps being sold for general illumination. A classic example of laws which limit consumer choice, for the consumer's benefit.

I've toyed with the idea of building my own supper efficient, extra long life LED lamp, but never got round to it. Has anyone here embarked on a such a project?
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 01:29:15 pm by Zero999 »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 11:45:22 am »
.... stinks of corruption to me.

Governments had to introduce laws ...

These are Middle East, even rich and "looks" modern, basically the condition at governing side are still very primitive, probably similar to the authority in Victorian era, don't expect too much, imo.

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 11:57:49 am »
I've toyed with the idea of building my own supper efficient, extra long life LED lamp, but never got round to it. Has anyone here embarked on a such a project?

No, but I considered it ;)

Seems all you have to do though is ship a few containers from Dubai to your place now ;)
 

Online Zero999

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 01:26:31 pm »
.... stinks of corruption to me.

Governments had to introduce laws ...

These are Middle East, even rich and "looks" modern, basically the condition at governing side are still very primitive, probably similar to the authority in Victorian era, don't expect too much, imo.
Yes even the rich Middle Eastern countries are still run by old styles of government.

To be clear: the bit where I was talking about governments passing laws on efficiency, relates to western governments. Post edited.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 03:34:42 pm by Zero999 »
 

Online tom66

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 03:22:28 pm »
I haven't had a single LED lamp fail in the 5 odd years since I first started using them.  I don't buy the absolute cheapest,  but Costco brand ones which are still fairly cheap (3 x 60W equivalent globes for ~£11) and they're still going strong.

Is it really common for LED lamps to fail early?  10+ years lifespan for a cheap product like that is pretty decent IMO.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2021, 03:38:43 pm »
I did but a few packs of star LED's and mounted them on some heatsinks, with a driver block, running them at lower current. 12W of LED running on 8W of power works well, and runs cold, even on a less than ideal repurposed aluminium heatsink. Great when Eskom decides to turn off the lights on a regular basis.

As to LED lamps, they do fail regularly, almost always due to the infamous black dot of death, but replacing a single LED on the now well toasted MCB board is not going to result in any real life, they are still massively overdriven, poorly heatsinked and the driver has been optimised to be running at close to failure. Linear fluorescent lasts a lot longer, and i still have a good stock of them, though the good ones are starting to be very hard to find.
 

Offline tunk

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2021, 04:35:55 pm »
Recently I've seen two dead LED bulbs, one with a blown
smoothing cap and another with a dead chip. I guess both
were heat related.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2021, 05:06:50 pm »
I haven't had a single LED lamp fail in the 5 odd years since I first started using them.  I don't buy the absolute cheapest,  but Costco brand ones which are still fairly cheap (3 x 60W equivalent globes for ~£11) and they're still going strong.

Is it really common for LED lamps to fail early?  10+ years lifespan for a cheap product like that is pretty decent IMO.
Its three and a half years since we moved in, and filled every light socket in this house with an LED lamp from B&Q. I've had to replace 20%-30% of them. I've never checked what failed. One was in an enclosed luminaire in the bathroom, which could well be due to high temperatures. The others were in the open. LED lamps, like CFLs before them, all say they must not be enclosed. Nobody seems to offer a version with better cooling that is suitable for an enclosed luminaire, even though most homes do have several of these.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 05:08:23 pm by coppice »
 

Offline ConKbot

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2021, 12:40:58 am »
The sad part is it's not even that drastic of an engineering change. Doubling of efficacy by only having the current really isn't that bad.  I remember some LEDs having a nice lovely 180lm/W rating, but at a 350mA current that was the defacto standard for rating LEDs, not the 2-3 A which would be their max operating current where it would be down to 100 or so lm/w.  I'm not sure how much the LED filaments cost, but I'd be willing to bet that in the cheep versions, it's <50 percent of the total BOM.

 

Online tszaboo

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2021, 12:50:01 am »
I haven't had a single LED lamp fail in the 5 odd years since I first started using them.  I don't buy the absolute cheapest,  but Costco brand ones which are still fairly cheap (3 x 60W equivalent globes for ~£11) and they're still going strong.

Is it really common for LED lamps to fail early?  10+ years lifespan for a cheap product like that is pretty decent IMO.
I had a few early LED laps, with high brightness 5mm LEDs that eventually faded, not providing light at all.
Then I had these filament style, Chinese, E17 socketed ones, that I've noticed blinking. I notice PWM and not smooth light output and it bothers me a lot. I think because of the E17 socket, the electronics is a lot more cramped together, so hotter.
Now I usually buy Tradfri bulbs, and didn't had a single one fail. And if you turn down the output with the remote, it becomes more efficient I guess. So its just a press of a button.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2021, 12:57:54 am »
I had a few early LED laps, with high brightness 5mm LEDs that eventually faded, not providing light at all.
In the early 2010s there were a huge number of LED bulbs which faded massively over a few thousand hours. In lighting shops they were refreshing some makes of lamp in the shop displays every three months or so, because their brightness had fallen so much compared to other makes displayed nearby. That issue seems to have greatly improved.
 

Offline amykTopic starter

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2021, 01:17:26 am »
What I think is most interesting is that the driver circuitry is very simple - capacitive dropper with a discrete post-regulator. I was expecting it to be based on an IC like a lot of other "high-end" LED bulbs are, but I've heard many stories of the driver failing before the LEDs, so perhaps that is a reliability improvement.
 

Offline ppelleti

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #17 on: November 24, 2021, 08:38:12 pm »
LED lamps, like CFLs before them, all say they must not be enclosed. Nobody seems to offer a version with better cooling that is suitable for an enclosed luminaire, even though most homes do have several of these.

LEDs for enclosed fixtures definitely exist.  I have a bunch of them from CREE and they seem to work well.  Unfortunately, it's a little hard to find them at a good price right now, perhaps due to supply chain issues.
 
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Offline elekorsi

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2021, 06:53:07 am »
Few weeks ago i took a closer look at an open Thorn IP66 industrial light. http://www.thornlighting.com/en/products/indoor-lighting/industrial-lighting/Aquaforce_Pro
It was interresting to me that the power supply only pushes half of power of what is the LED module strip specified at. I dont remember exact numbers, but i remember it was half. Similar to that dubai led lamps... They sure did make them more reliable and efficent with that.
 

Offline John B

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2021, 09:29:50 pm »
I've toyed with the idea of building my own supper efficient, extra long life LED lamp, but never got round to it. Has anyone here embarked on a such a project?

I mainly build my own drivers for batten style LED lamps. I'd much rather have several battens run at low power vs a single light bulb or batten at the equivalent power.

Not only do you have LEDs running barely above ambient temps, but the driver circuitry is separate and better able to dissipate heat (which also isn't coupled to the LEDs)

The best thing is the light quality, because there are so many light sources, the room is evenly lit with very little shadows.
 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2022, 04:18:37 pm »
It seems that, at least in Germany, Philips offer similar lamps: LED CLA 75W A70 E27 3000K CL UE SRT4. Unfortunately only 75W and 100W equivalent. Even slightly better: 210Lumen/W; the Dubai Lamp has only 200Lumen/W. Probably due to improved manufacturing processes rather than technical changes.

One could wonder if the updated energy label finally nudges the industry to more efficient gadgets. I would count that a success.

And sorry about the Necro-Post. But I think this time it make sense.

Edit: Typo
« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 05:40:49 pm by Twoflower »
 
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Online MK14

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2022, 04:46:16 pm »
Unfortunately only 75W and 100W equivalent.

Are you sure ?

Via your link, it seems to let me find, 40W and 60W equivalent, ultra efficient, very long life ones, as well.
Only 2.3W consumption for the 40W equivalent one, and 50,000 hour life expectancy.

https://www.lighting.philips.de/consumer/p/led-lampe/8719514343726

https://www.lighting.philips.de/consumer/p/led-lampe/8719514343788/technische-daten
 

Offline Twoflower

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2022, 05:39:29 pm »
Are you sure ?

Via your link, it seems to let me find, 40W and 60W equivalent, ultra efficient, very long life ones, as well.
Only 2.3W consumption for the 40W equivalent one, and 50,000 hour life expectancy.

https://www.lighting.philips.de/consumer/p/led-lampe/8719514343726

https://www.lighting.philips.de/consumer/p/led-lampe/8719514343788/technische-daten
You`re right! I sorted the overview to see the latest products and they didn't showed up. It seems the lower-power ones are listed longer as they show up on page 2.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2022, 06:49:56 pm »
Its a way to pad his income, he is an absolute ruler, after all. Absolute rulers get what they want,  all sorts of outrageous stuff that would never happen  elsewhere. Its like the way colonial powers used to treat their colonies. They were widely thought of as a vehicle for the generation of profit for the sovereign's own purse. Or in some cases, worldly pleasures.

Like, for example, look up "kippumjo" Its so outrageous that most people don't believe it could possibly be for real, but it is. One has to go pretty far back into history, or into really cruel dictatorships,  to find such behaviors in many Western countries.

I think there is some political reason for this ruling and not scientific. It has very little to do with actual "improving efficiency" or saving energy costs domestically. This is all about world-stage positioning and marketing of the city. As bigclivedotcom mentions, the lamp was produced as part of a collaboration...

"Philips and Dubai developed the LED bulb under the patronage of Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Prime Minister of the UAE and Ruler of Dubai. The new Philips Dubai Lamp delivers 200 lm/W, making it the first commercially available lamp to break the 200-lm/W barrier".

So what I think it going on here is, Dubai invested in a venture with Philips and wants to recoup that investment, show an example of technological innovation, spur on national pride, diversify the economy, and promote young people to get into tech industry, among other things. By forcing every new building to buy the lamp they can scale up manufacturing of their venture, perhaps lower the cost and eventually profit on global sales once the price is low enough. How much of the tech in the lamps is actually Philips and how much did Dubai help in terms of their domestic scientific talent, I don't know. Given they say "under the patronage of", it seems to me that Dubai talked to Philips about their R&D targets and made a deal to bank-roll them for some exclusivity deal that would meet their political ideological agenda.

That agenda is Dubai as a forward-thinking futuristic city that is green and efficient. Although the entire region is backed by oil, cities within these countries are trying to diversify their economies into tech, financial, tourism, real estate and so on, and escape from a reliance on oil, which will stabilize the regions long-term, raise up the middle class, improve education and so on.

If they really are more efficient and require less in the way of energy when run that way, they sound more desirable to have. I must confess I went looking for them. I wanted to check one out. I have one location where bulbs seem to burn out faster and I'm curious if some different kind of bulb would also, if put there. I would like to be able to buy an extremely long life lamp, one that lasted years or decades without replacement. Suppose it was difficult to replace, say, required ascending a long ladder or whatever. (I know that must happen in Dubai, land of the large skyscrapers)
« Last Edit: April 09, 2022, 06:52:43 pm by cdev »
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Online MK14

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Re: The Dubai Lamp
« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2022, 07:13:15 pm »
You`re right! I sorted the overview to see the latest products and they didn't showed up. It seems the lower-power ones are listed longer as they show up on page 2.

Yes, easily missed. I already knew about them, so I had a determined look (and knew a suitable search term for the search box). Thanks, I didn't realize they did 75W and 100W equivalent, ultra efficient, super long life LED lights.

Here is a leaflet and advertising webpage, about the Philips ultra efficient LED bulbs:
https://www.lighting.philips.co.uk/consumer/ultra-efficient

Apparently (  source probably this:  https://www.electronicsweekly.com/blogs/led-luminaries/philips-goes-210-lm-w-bulbs-fanfare-done-earlier-2021-08/  but I may have read a number of websites, so it could be elsewhere  ), the EU new regulations, as regards the efficiency labeling, is rumored to have persuaded Philips to release these new LED ultra efficient ranges.

They seem to be available for sale in the UK, e.g. John Lewis. But are rather pricey at around £12 for the 60 Watt equivalent ones (  https://www.johnlewis.com/philips-60w-e27-led-non-dimmable-classic-bulb-clear/p6040141  ). Also, some express concern it is a 3000K colour temperature, rather than the warm white 2700K ones, that you normally get.
 


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