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| The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from? |
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| Someone:
--- Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 18, 2020, 03:31:22 pm --- --- Quote from: nfmax on February 18, 2020, 11:45:07 am ---The whole idea of being allowed to store your personal possessions on public property (i.e. leaving your car permanently parked on a public road) might perhaps be reconsidered... --- End quote --- Yeah, let's progress backwards. I fear that the future will be worse than the present. --- End quote --- Why should removing a subsidy for motor vehicles be going backwards? It sure is nice for car owners when they can externalise their costs but take the example of big cities such as London with less than 1 car per 3 residents, or Amsterdam with 1 car per 4 residents. Could the space taken by cars be more productively used for other purposes? Such as making more road space to reduce congestion? Why should the majority subsidise the minority? Cars don't scale up for transport in big cities, if you want that lifestyle live out in the country where land is cheap. |
| GeorgeOfTheJungle:
--- Quote from: tom66 on February 18, 2020, 06:48:05 pm ---An ICE needs: - Exhaust systems - Emissions control systems - Various air/oil/fuel/transmission filters - A multispeed transmission, CVT, *and/or* hybrid system - A starter motor/alternator and battery supply for such (if not hybrid) - A turbo (on some models) - A radiator capable of dissipating >60kW for cruising speeds - A litany of engine sensors - Timing belts and belt driven water pumps - and so on [...] I don't see how you can say EV and ICE are even remotely comparable in terms of complexity. --- End quote --- An EV needs: -Neodymium magnets. -Lots of expensive copper. -A heavy and costly electric motor that weights MORE than an ICE -Delicate hi power electronics for the inverter (hundreds of kiloWatts !) -Single speed transmission with differential. -A 12V battery just like the ICEs -A 60..100 kWh battery made of thousands of Li-Ion cells -A complicated BMS -A charger for the Li-Ion battery -A cooling/heating system with pumps for the Li-Ion battery -A cooling system with pumps for the electric motor -A cooling system with pumps for the power electronics. -An electric motor driven HVAC with heat pump -A litany of current, voltage and other sensors for the BMS, inverter, electric motor, and cooling systems. -and so on |
| Someone:
--- Quote from: ogden on February 18, 2020, 08:20:17 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on February 18, 2020, 07:43:40 pm ---Over here hydrogen costs 10 euro per kg. Electricity from a public charging point costs 0.47 euro ct per kWh on average from Allego (excluding an hourly tarif if you leave the car parked for too long in some cases). So the Mirai costs 50 euro for a full load of hydrogen and an average EV (480km at 225Wh/km) costs 50.76 euro. --- End quote --- Public chargers "over there"? :) It was about charging @home, in US. Whatever. Even using your numbers cost to fully charge Tesla 3 equipped with 50kWh battery (400km range): 50*0.47=23.5 EUR. --- Quote ---Now tell me; given the better range and shorter fueling times which car would people who can't charge from their own sockets prefer? --- End quote --- Diesel :-DD --- End quote --- Electricity vs hydrocarbon vs hydrogen vs whatever as a fuel source varies wildly from country to country. Same topic 5 years ago: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/problems-if-we-all-had-tesla-cars/msg705793/#msg705793 Things have changed a little since then but it still rides on the electricity price (everywhere?) having no transport taxation, and the majority of countries taxing fuel at much higher rate. As alternative energy sources for transport start to become significant then there will be changes to the way they are priced/taxed. Distance and/or weight based pricing for vehicle use could be introduced to level that. Radical changes in taxation have occurred before in Australia where the government provided rebates (subsidies) to convert or purchase LPG cars, and then just years later upped the taxes on LPG: https://www.mynrma.com.au/membership/my-nrma-app/fuel-resources/the-story-behind-the-rise-and-fall-of-lpg The economics of that fuel source fell apart, and people went back to petrol/diesel. |
| mikeselectricstuff:
--- Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 18, 2020, 09:45:00 pm --- An EV needs: -Neodymium magnets. --- End quote --- Not necessarily --- Quote ----Delicate hi power electronics for the inverter (hundreds of kiloWatts !) --- End quote --- Delicate ? Are we seeing significant failures of electronics over the last few years of production EVs ? Nope. --- Quote ----A complicated BMS -A charger for the Li-Ion battery --- End quote --- Just electronics. --- Quote ----A cooling/heating system with pumps for the Li-Ion battery -A cooling system with pumps for the electric motor -A cooling system with pumps for the power electronics. --- End quote --- Often a single heating/cooling system --- Quote ----A litany of current, voltage and other sensors for the BMS, inverter, electric motor, and cooling systems. -and so on --- End quote --- Again, just electronics. simple and reliable. |
| coppice:
--- Quote from: mikeselectricstuff on February 18, 2020, 10:45:18 pm --- --- Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 18, 2020, 09:45:00 pm ----Delicate hi power electronics for the inverter (hundreds of kiloWatts !) --- End quote --- Delicate ? Are we seeing significant failures of electronics over the last few years of production EVs ? Nope. --- End quote --- This is one of the things I find quite impressive about electric power in vehicles to date, whether its full EVs or hybrids. There is a substantial amount of high power, high stress, electronics built to minimum cost in all of them, but you hardly ever hear serious complaints about the reliability of this part of the system. |
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