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| The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from? |
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| nctnico:
--- Quote from: ogden on February 19, 2020, 06:59:42 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 10:10:45 am ---The prices I listed are the reality for the people not being able to charge from their own socket. --- End quote --- So you say that people who are not able to get their own socket next to car parking can afford Toyota Mirai for 78.600,00 € (.de price including VAT). --- End quote --- That price will go down for sure and you can also buy these second hand at some point. And in the Netherlands you can spend well over a million euro on a home without having your own driveway or garage. --- Quote --- --- Quote ---And in the end nobody cares about efficiency. It is all about costs. --- End quote --- Yes. Those two are related, didn't you know? :palm: p.s. Seems, you gave-up debunking my claim that fuel cells are less efficient storage of energy compared to batteries? Lame shifting of goalposts instead? LOL --- End quote --- Because there is nothing to argue about. Efficiency doesn't matter at all. Electricity made by a solar panel in Africa, the middle-East or even Australia cannot be transported to Europe. Turn it into hydrogen and you can. What counts is economic viability. Keep in mind that battery storage of electricity can easely cost a multiple of what it costs to generate it. So converting it to hydrogen with some loss is very likely cheaper compared to battery storage. And from there hydrogen is much more universal to use as well. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: coppice on February 18, 2020, 10:51:05 pm ---This is one of the things I find quite impressive about electric power in vehicles to date, whether its full EVs or hybrids. There is a substantial amount of high power, high stress, electronics built to minimum cost in all of them, but you hardly ever hear serious complaints about the reliability of this part of the system. --- End quote --- Indeed. When the Prius was first developed I confidently predicted we would be seeing massive numbers of battery and inverter failures, that salvage yards would be filled with a sea of hybrid cars written off simply because the expensive batteries or electronics had failed. I was dead wrong. To this day I have not seen a single failure, some worn out batteries in 15+ year old hybrids but refurbished battery packs are available at reasonable prices now. I know several EV owners and dozens of hybrid owners and not a single one of them has written off a car due to equipment failure. The reliability has astounded me. I dread having to try to fix one if it does fail but so far I have not had to. On the other hand I know a handful of people who have written off gasoline cars by running them out of oil, breaking the timing belt (because they balk at paying $1200 to have the belt replaced on a car worth $2500) or overheating them due to coolant loss and still more who have had transmission failures, engine problems and other issues due to either lax maintenance or design defects. |
| james_s:
--- Quote from: ogden on February 19, 2020, 06:59:42 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 10:10:45 am ---The prices I listed are the reality for the people not being able to charge from their own socket. --- End quote --- So you say that people who are not able to get their own socket next to car parking can afford Toyota Mirai for 78.600,00 € (.de price including VAT). --- Quote ---And in the end nobody cares about efficiency. It is all about costs. --- End quote --- Yes. Those two are related, didn't you know? :palm: p.s. Seems, you gave-up debunking my claim that fuel cells are less efficient storage of energy compared to batteries? Lame shifting of goalposts instead? LOL --- End quote --- There is no sense in arguing with the resident EV-hater. You will never win a religious argument, facts and data are useless. You just have to recognize that you are arguing against their religion and step away. |
| ogden:
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 07:05:19 pm ---Because there is nothing to argue about. Efficiency doesn't matter at all. Electricity made by a solar panel in Africa, the middle-East or even Australia cannot be transported to Europe. Turn it into hydrogen and you can. What counts is economic viability. --- End quote --- If economic viability what matters, I take hybrid any day. Compare Toyota Mirai to Lexus UX 250h. Price: 79580 vs 36850, Cost per 100km: 10EUR*0.8=8EUR vs 1.378EUR*4.1=5.65EUR Car prices from mobile.de, gasoline price from globalpetrolprices.com, H2 price from your data, 10EUR/kg. Your turn. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: ogden on February 19, 2020, 07:52:35 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 07:05:19 pm ---Because there is nothing to argue about. Efficiency doesn't matter at all. Electricity made by a solar panel in Africa, the middle-East or even Australia cannot be transported to Europe. Turn it into hydrogen and you can. What counts is economic viability. --- End quote --- If economic viability what matters, I take hybrid any day. Compare Toyota Mirai to Lexus UX 250h. Price: 79580 vs 36850, Cost per 100km: 10EUR*0.8=8EUR vs 1.378EUR*4.1=5.65EUR Car prices from mobile.de, gasoline price from globalpetrolprices.com, H2 price from your data, 10EUR/kg. Your turn. --- End quote --- You are very well aware you are comparing very new technology with existing technology so any price comparison at this point is rather moot. I already stated that at this moment the best choice is a hybrid. |
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