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The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from?
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nctnico:

--- Quote from: james_s on February 19, 2020, 07:12:42 pm ---facts and data are useless.

--- End quote ---
All the facts point to EVs never becoming a mainstream mode of transport! Toyota isn't even planning on building EVs. Are you calling the people running one of the biggest and highest valued car manufacturers stupid? Toyota got it right when they introduced the hybrid (even though they where the laughing stock of the motoring world when they did) and chances are high they got it right again.
ogden:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 08:14:23 pm ---You are very well aware you are comparing very new technology with existing technology so any price comparison at this point is rather moot.

--- End quote ---
I at least compared *existing* technologies. Your argument was hydrogen fuel cell EV economic viability which don't even exist (yet).
tom66:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 08:22:11 pm ---All the facts point to EVs never becoming a mainstream mode of transport! Toyota isn't even planning on building EVs. Are you calling the people running one of the biggest and highest valued car manufacturers stupid? Toyota got it right when they introduced the hybrid (even though they where the laughing stock of the motoring world when they did) and chances are high they got it right again.

--- End quote ---

Toyota plans on riding out the ICE for as long as possible.  They are heavily invested in hybrid tech. You cannot buy a better hybrid than a Toyota/Lexus hybrid.  The Prius is class-leading in efficiency, for hybrid-powered vehicles; I think only the Hyundai Ioniq hybrid comes close.

The problem for car manufacturers is making an EV is an entirely different ball game.   A hydrogen car is their way to say "look, we're green and clean, now let us keep making ICE cars".   Building EVs requires mass battery factories, and the component count is lower than an ICE, so the possibility to stay competitive is lower.  If you look at the Bill of Materials for a modern car, you'll find very little outside of the engine, interior parts and chassis is actually made by the manufacturers.  Car manufacturers are essentially coachbuilders.  EVs take away their engine know how and they lose their advantage to the Chinese and Silicon Valley startups like Tesla.

If they were truly interested in making hydrogen cars  viable, they would be shipping them in Model 3/Model S volumes by now,  as well as investing in a fuelling network to make them practical.   Toyota sold under 2k Mirai per year in the USA,  Tesla sold more Roadsters! [1]

[1] http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales-data/toyota/toyota-mirai/
Someone:

--- Quote from: tom66 on February 19, 2020, 06:14:39 pm ---Joe Average is going to have to pay the cost one way or another.  The problem is we have gorged for too long on cheap fossil fuels without considering the environmental consequences.
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Even without externalities such as environmental "costs" the price of some non-renewable energy sources has been historically undervalued. The example of natural gas (misleadingly extrapolated) above is a good one, it has been burnt off at wells as a pure waste product as the price was so low it was uneconomic to deliver. Industry and consumers became accustomed to cheap heat from gas, but with worldwide demand increasing (driven in large part by increasing use for generating electricity) the price is levelling out to the underlying $/Mj value of delivered energy. Enjoy the good times while they last because change is inevitable.
Someone:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 19, 2020, 08:22:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: james_s on February 19, 2020, 07:12:42 pm ---facts and data are useless.

--- End quote ---
All the facts point to EVs never becoming a mainstream mode of transport! Toyota isn't even planning on building EVs. Are you calling the people running one of the biggest and highest valued car manufacturers stupid? Toyota got it right when they introduced the hybrid (even though they where the laughing stock of the motoring world when they did) and chances are high they got it right again.

--- End quote ---
That is your belief/view, we get it. Other people think that the world of mass private transport is inherently unsustainable and the future is not some car replacement in every shape/form/function/capability match but instead a diversification of transport options. So how about back to the issue asked by this thread of where would the energy come from?
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