General > General Technical Chat

The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from?

<< < (12/33) > >>

nctnico:

--- Quote from: benst on February 14, 2020, 11:38:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2020, 11:30:34 pm ---Not enough is not enough. At some point changing / expanding the wiring in the street will be required.

--- End quote ---

Oh please, that has been happening for the last 100 years. Plus, the average house around here has a 240 V 16 A 3 phase main fuses. (25 A optional for free.) That's 11.5 kW. Don't you think there's some overcapacity in the grid, compared to the 0.8 kW peak power in the spreadsheet I showed. Just the other week, the power co was increasing the power available here in the street. (A distribution box is in front of my house so I had a chat with them.) You know what they did? Upgraded the fuses in the distribution box.

--- End quote ---
See my last edit. You only accounted for 1 car per household and your calculation leaves zero margin. Being able to upgrade the fuses is just anecdotal evidence. If it where so easy they wouldn't need to resort to limiting the power in Amsterdam for handling just a few EVs.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2020, 10:44:07 pm ---
You don't understand the problem at all. This has nothing to do with averages but peak demand. The grid in a street is designed for a domestic load. This means that they fit a street with a transformer and wiring which is enough to feed all the homes at peak demand with some margin. Add some big extra loads and you'll see that the wiring can't handle the total load while the homes are at peak demand. Something has got to give. Even on the elaad.nl website it says 1 EVs is equal to the (peak) demand of 10 homes. The real challenge is to do the math to determine at what point the wiring is not enough to charge all EVs parked in a street sufficiently.

--- End quote ---

To solve that math problem you need some numbers.  I've no idea how they do things there, but I don't really need to.  The problem is the assertion that 1 EV is 10X the peak demand of a home--this is just silly, even if you can put forth some plausible calculation for it.  EV charging could be that much, but it certainly doesn't need to be.  7.2kW is plenty, 3.6kW will do for all but the truly dedicated commuter.  So are  you claiming that the peak household there is 720 watts?  Or are you using a DCFS number for the EV charging rate?

Someone:

--- Quote from: benst on February 14, 2020, 10:39:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 14, 2020, 10:34:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: benst on February 14, 2020, 06:50:37 pm ---I have seen arguments that the conversion to EV's will actually lower the total power consumption. This is because to refine 1 liter of gasoline, it takes between 2 .. 5 kWh of electrical power. (Numbers I found online vary wildly, unfortunately.) There are some huge power plants next to the oil refineries here on the Maasvlakte in the Netherlands, for example.

Assuming a new EV replaces an ICE car, and assuming it takes 3.5 kWh to refine 1 l of gasoline, this means that:

Lots of assumption here, I know. Only part of the puzzle, but interesting. I do not think that generating power for all those EV's is the problem. Distributing it and making it conveniently accessible is.
--- End quote ---
This is wildly out, well to pump efficiencies of petroleum are around 80% and upwards, much of the energy to drive that process is "waste" byproducts of the process its self. You could make a pure electricity equivalent but that falls into the same trap as the car powered by petrol vs person walking powered by imported high emboldened energy foodstuff that happens to use a lot of petrol. Power plants co-located with refineries are because there is a large stream of low value/cost oil (by)products.

--- End quote ---

Not sure we're talking about the same thing? The power plants I mentioned are needed to power the refineries. Some are coal powered, some natural gas. Not byproducts of the process at all.

Ben

--- End quote ---
Your stated figure for the electricity "required" to produce petrol is nonsense, even taking the complete well to pump efficiency of the process (which include all sorts of energy inputs/losses) doesn't come up with that much energy use.

This much smaller amount of energy required is not even used as electricity, but other forms of energy input (for example a widely produced graph below).

Co-location of refineries and power generation is not because refineries use enormous amounts of power but because they can share low value products which would be expensive to transport, if its not low grade fuel then likely steam/heat.

Your estimate would have refining using 7x the total electricity use of all industry in the Netherlands, and more than the entire countries electricity consumption. Its plainly wrong and misleading to then use that for any sort of comparison or calculation.

benst:

--- Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2020, 11:42:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: benst on February 14, 2020, 11:38:44 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2020, 11:30:34 pm ---Not enough is not enough. At some point changing / expanding the wiring in the street will be required.

--- End quote ---

Oh please, that has been happening for the last 100 years. Plus, the average house around here has a 240 V 16 A 3 phase main fuses. (25 A optional for free.) That's 11.5 kW. Don't you think there's some overcapacity in the grid, compared to the 0.8 kW peak power in the spreadsheet I showed. Just the other week, the power co was increasing the power available here in the street. (A distribution box is in front of my house so I had a chat with them.) You know what they did? Upgraded the fuses in the distribution box.

--- End quote ---
See my last edit. You only accounted for 1 car per household and your calculation leaves zero margin.

--- End quote ---

Yes, the average number of cars per household in the Netherlands is... 1.


--- Quote ---Being able to upgrade the fuses is just anecdotal evidence.

--- End quote ---

Doesn't matter, the logic in the 10 x power statement is still flawed. They must be assuming every EV has to charge at 11 kW (I assume, no data was provided.) I showed that this is hardly necessary.


--- Quote ---If it where so easy they wouldn't need to resort to limiting the power in Amsterdam for handling just a few EVs.

--- End quote ---

In Amsterdam the average number of cars per household must be even less. Almost none of my friends living in Amsterdam own a car. (Yes, because there is no place to park them.)

Looking at my spreadsheet, during daytime (which I left at 0 kW in my example) more power is available for visitors etc.

Ben

benst:

--- Quote from: Someone on February 14, 2020, 11:48:34 pm ---Your stated figure for the electricity "required" to produce petrol is nonsense, even taking the complete well to pump efficiency of the process (which include all sorts of energy inputs/losses) doesn't come up with that much energy use.

This much smaller amount of energy required is not even used as electricity, but other forms of energy input (for example a widely produced graph below).

Co-location of refineries and power generation is not because refineries use enormous amounts of power but because they can share low value products which would be expensive to transport, if its not low grade fuel then likely steam/heat.

Your estimate would have refining using 7x the total electricity use of all industry in the Netherlands, and more than the entire countries electricity consumption. Its plainly wrong and misleading to then use that for any sort of comparison or calculation.

--- End quote ---

Thank you, that is certainly interesting information. Not talking WTP here. The energy needed to go from crude oil to gasoline I remembered was too high, if I search again I get around 6 kW / gallon = 1.6 kW / liter. This is apparently from US DOE figures, but I cannot find the original reference.

Does that sound more credible?

Can you tell me where you got the data for the 7 x total electricity use?

Ben


Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod