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The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from?

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Someone:

--- Quote from: bdunham7 on February 14, 2020, 11:42:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 14, 2020, 10:44:07 pm ---
You don't understand the problem at all. This has nothing to do with averages but peak demand. The grid in a street is designed for a domestic load. This means that they fit a street with a transformer and wiring which is enough to feed all the homes at peak demand with some margin. Add some big extra loads and you'll see that the wiring can't handle the total load while the homes are at peak demand. Something has got to give. Even on the elaad.nl website it says 1 EVs is equal to the (peak) demand of 10 homes. The real challenge is to do the math to determine at what point the wiring is not enough to charge all EVs parked in a street sufficiently.

--- End quote ---

To solve that math problem you need some numbers.  I've no idea how they do things there, but I don't really need to.  The problem is the assertion that 1 EV is 10X the peak demand of a home--this is just silly, even if you can put forth some plausible calculation for it.  EV charging could be that much, but it certainly doesn't need to be.  7.2kW is plenty, 3.6kW will do for all but the truly dedicated commuter.  So are  you claiming that the peak household there is 720 watts?  Or are you using a DCFS number for the EV charging rate?

--- End quote ---
Its pointless to argue around and around without examples of the actual constraints to peak delivery. As example in Australia (What Drives Residential Energy Demand? An Investigation of Smart Metered Electricity Data, H Fan UNSW 2017) residential households are peaking at 2.1kW on 19kWh/day (both averages), much higher peaks are delivered without problem.

Assuming a car doesn't participate in balancing with delivering energy, and it only consumes as instructed there is 30kWh/day available per residential household without any increase in peak use. Commercial and industrial locations (where the commuters work) are another lump of available energy to consider. This all adds up to completely feasible from the delivery point of view when average distance per vehicle per day is less than 40km, and there are approximately 2 vehicles per household (figures come out just above or just below this depending on source). Even pushing the quantiles you'd see the vast majority of households would be accommodated with zero changes.

Someone:

--- Quote from: benst on February 15, 2020, 12:07:32 am ---Thank you, that is certainly interesting information. Not talking WTP here. The energy needed to go from crude oil to gasoline I remembered was too high, if I search again I get around 6 kW / gallon = 1.6 kW / liter. This is apparently from US DOE figures, but I cannot find the original reference.

Does that sound more credible?

Can you tell me where you got the data for the 7 x total electricity use?
--- End quote ---
If you can't be bothered to quote references for your data why should I do it for you?

benst:

--- Quote from: Someone on February 15, 2020, 12:16:48 am ---If you can't be bothered to quote references for your data why should I do it for you?

--- End quote ---

I assumed you had it handy as you posted a graph out of it.

As I said, I tried finding the original reference for my statement. I could only find secondary refs and the numbers varied a bit. It was not laziness on my part, sorry if I made that impression. As soon as I find it, I will amend my post.

Edit: Using the google instead of duckduckgo I think I found it, but am still trying to wrap my head around it:
https://greet.es.anl.gov/files/hl9mw9i7

Ben

Someone:

--- Quote from: benst on February 15, 2020, 12:22:37 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 15, 2020, 12:16:48 am ---If you can't be bothered to quote references for your data why should I do it for you?

--- End quote ---

I assumed you had it handy as you posted a graph out of it.

As I said, I tried finding the original reference for my statement. I could only find secondary refs and the numbers varied a bit. It was not laziness on my part, sorry if I made that impression. As soon as I find it, I will amend my post.
--- End quote ---
Its all laziness on your part:

--- Quote from: benst on February 14, 2020, 10:39:31 pm ---
--- Quote from: Someone on February 14, 2020, 10:34:52 pm ---Power plants co-located with refineries are because there is a large stream of low value/cost oil (by)products.
--- End quote ---
Not sure we're talking about the same thing? The power plants I mentioned are needed to power the refineries. Some are coal powered, some natural gas. Not byproducts of the process at all.
--- End quote ---
I could spend hours getting all the geolocations of power stations in the Netherlands to pull that apart, but you're just putting up more vague nonsense without references that is expensive for others to verify. There is a gas power station right in the middle of the Rotterdam refinery complex, using....  a (by)product of refining. Your points miss the absolute fundamentals. You are free to show the list of co-located resources and their feedstocks to show how they are importing fuels.

nigelwright7557:

--- Quote from: edy on February 14, 2020, 01:57:02 am ---A lot of gas is spent idling in traffic. Ideally the efficiency of an electric will mean little to no electricity usage when standing still.

--- End quote ---

Mr car is start/stop anyway.
With a gas engine heat that would have been lost anyway can be used to heat the car instead.
With electric (here in UK where its usually cold) you need to use some battery power to keep warm.
At the moment there simply aren't enough charge points so  I will stick with my 2016 "clean" diesel for now.
At my last MOT my cars emissions were almost zero.
Diesel cars have moved on a long way in recent years.

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