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| The Electric Vehicle Future: Where is all the power going to come from? |
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| richard.cs:
--- Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 18, 2020, 04:01:35 pm ---Now, what's with that saying that EVs were much less complicated than ICEs? --- End quote --- They are arguably more complicated than some ICEs, but so what if a 2020 Tesla model 3 is more complex than a 1979 Ford Fiesta. The only sensible comparison has to be to contemporary ICEs. Yes an EV has a somewhat complex battery management system which in some cases include active cooling. It also has fewer moving parts, fewer precision machined parts, lesser maintenance requirements, a simpler drivetrain, etc. All modern cars are complex machines however they are propelled. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: richard.cs on February 18, 2020, 05:01:06 pm --- --- Quote from: GeorgeOfTheJungle on February 18, 2020, 04:01:35 pm ---Now, what's with that saying that EVs were much less complicated than ICEs? --- End quote --- They are arguably more complicated than some ICEs, but so what if a 2020 Tesla model 3 is more complex than a 1979 Ford Fiesta. The only sensible comparison has to be to contemporary ICEs. Yes an EV has a somewhat complex battery management system which in some cases include active cooling. It also has fewer moving parts, fewer precision machined parts, lesser maintenance requirements, a simpler drivetrain, etc. --- End quote --- Now you focus purely on the drivetrain. If you look at the big picture an EV and ICE car are equally complicated. The complicated bit is just in different areas. For example: the cooling system of an ICE based car is much less complex compared to an EV which needs to actively cool and heat drive electronics and the battery pack. If you compile an entire list you'll see it will be equal. Also cars are engineered for a certain MTBF so all in all the overall reliability will be the same. |
| maginnovision:
Anybody arguing they are less complex is just repeating what they've heard. There is nothing simple about the motors or drive electronics. If they were at all simple they wouldn't be swapping entire units they'd be repairing them and reinstalling. A modern vehicle is made with repairability in mind. EVs are made so the big components can be swapped and sent off to be rebuilt. Imagine if you had to do that with your ICE vehicle. Leaking valve cover gasket? Well you need to pay to replace the engine and we'll have you back on the road. This is less of an issue for lower performance models where the motors and drive electronics aren't being stressed but any high performance model(Tesla, Porsche, jaguar, etc...) It's a constant issue. That's just a warranty issue until it runs out though. Aside from the method of propulsion they all have AC/heater systems, body electronics, cooling systems, brakes, suspension... Multi component systems that can all fail due to wear and tear or design failures. Realistically nobody is going to be working on their own ev systems because they're actually more complicated. An engine and transmission are just Legos that occasionally require some measurements to make sure the pieces fit. Anybody can do it and many do. |
| richard.cs:
--- Quote from: nctnico on February 18, 2020, 05:07:21 pm ---Now you focus purely on the drivetrain. If you look at the big picture an EV and ICE car are equally complicated. The complicated bit is just in different areas. For example: the cooling system of an ICE based car is much less complex compared to an EV which needs to actively cool and heat drive electronics and the battery pack. If you compile an entire list you'll see it will be equal. Also cars are engineered for a certain MTBF so all in all the overall reliability will be the same. --- End quote --- Well that was my point, the bit you missed when quoting me was: --- Quote from: richard.cs on February 18, 2020, 05:01:06 pm ---All modern cars are complex machines however they are propelled. --- End quote --- All modern cars have complexity and most of the non-drivetrain complexity is common to ICE and EV; ABS and traction control, lots of airbags, various passenger comfort and entertainment things, reversing sensors, proximity radars, lane following, etc. Of the complexity which is not common to both: ICEs have huge numbers of complex moving parts in both engine and drivetrain, and then lots of sensors and control electronics associated with optimising performance and emissions. EVs have a chunk of power electronics to do motor drive and then a complex battery management system. They may or may not have active temperature management of the battery. So with everything else common to both, the question is if a modern ICE and transmission is more or less complex than an inverter drive and managed battery. I can see an argument that they're similar, and I can see an argument that the EV is less complex because the most complex part (the battery and BMS) is actually made largely of many identical chunks of cell + electronics. In reality of course, complexity is unimportant, especially some theoretical assessment of how much entropy is contained within the vehicle. It's as pointless as if we took all the design documentation and ran it through gzip and argued one car was less complex and therefore better because the resulting file size is smaller. What end users actually care about is not complexity itself, but the corresponding impact on reliability (as failure probability * cost of repair) and routine maintenance cost. |
| nctnico:
--- Quote from: tom66 on February 18, 2020, 03:28:49 pm ---The important thing to take from this is that 50% of people will find it relatively easy to work with an electric vehicle given they have access to a driveway, so that is who we should be promoting electric vehicles to right now, while working on improving the situation for people without charging on their street. --- End quote --- The car industry would like that because it means business as usual while CO2 savings only exist on paper. The world is better served by promoting (subsidising) more efficient cars today. All across Europe the average CO2 output per car is increasing despite the EVs being sold. There is something terribly wrong with the idea that EVs can lower CO2 emissions within the timeframes set by the Paris agreement. Also the chances are high that by the time 'kerb charging' is implemented it is no longer needed due to bio-fuels, hydrogen or even better batteries. |
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