The end (almost) of an era!!

[unknownparticle]

Had a telephone line fault to my house a few days ago, no dial tone, so had to call in Openreach, the UK telephone and broadband infrastructure provider, via my BB provider.
So, yes I do still have a phone landline!  So, the BB provider took the opportunity to pitch for a new contract deal, as they do!  The choice was a new fibre connection, or continue with the snail speed copper.  I was undecided so she sweetened the offer by reducing the fibre below copper, but then mentioned in passing that copper is being phased out and will be obsolete and unavailable in 6 years!!!  This is by virtue of Open Reach network policy.  Now I had no idea that fibre was even available in my area, as it's rural and always at the end of the Q for everything, I can't even find the fibre cabinet and it is fibre to the property so it must be there somewhere!  I was on the Open Reach network update list and have not been er' updated!!
Now you are wondering, what is this fool blathering about!! Good question.  I collect and use old telephones and this means I will no longer be able to use them, as telephone landlines are not included with fibre BB!!
So do I stick it out on copper for the next 6 years and enjoy my old phones for as long as possible, or take the pain and disappointment now and go fibre?!  I know it's not the end of the world but I feel so sad about this, the world is changing too fast for me!!

[MK14]

My understanding is you can get BOTH at the some time, sort of.  Keep the copper (if you still want it), but use the fibre to the cabinet, to get considerably higher broadband speeds, by using a fast provider and suitable box (they should supply for free).
This limits you to around 70Mb/s(download speed)/18Mb/s (upload speed), but that should be fine for many people.

The actual speed depends on the quality of your line and how far away it is from the exchange/boxes/etc.  So may be different/less, it also depends on which provider you choose.
Many seem to refuse to offer, new landline services now, at least according to their adverts.

I.e. The landlines, are becoming increasingly obsolete in the UK.  But there are issues, as you may need to have holes drilled in your home, an engineer needs to enter your home, have stuff rerouted, depending on your internal configurations, power a box of tricks, and have to sort out some other arrangement (£'s equipment plus possible extra monthly £'s fees, for the call services), to get phone lines (equivalents), working again.

Also no local electricity (power cut) = no phones/internet, except mobile phones, when you get the phone lines removed.

On the other hand.  The all fibre (fibre to the home), solution.  Is suppose to be considerably quicker (especially if you pay extra, for the high speed monthly plans), and more reliable (much fewer internet line disconnections/drops).

[unknownparticle]

Thanks, I'll investigate that.
Although fibre is obviously significantly faster, for me that's not so much of an advantage, as my existing copper connection is adequate for my use as I live alone.
The only thing I would be able to do with fibre that I can't do now is stream 4k video.
I suppose Open Reach want to rid themselves of the upkeep on copper lines but I do wonder about elderly people who will probably struggle with this, and I know people who don't have internet and don't want it!!
 

[pcprogrammer]

Here in France I was very pleased when they finally brought fiber to the home. Where I live it is also very rural and I could not even get ADSL because of the distance to the switch was over 8Km, so had to do with satellite internet for a lot of years. The first system was not that great and had a lot of dropouts when it rained, but the second was much better giving reasonable speeds, but long ping times. Not to good for voip, but we got by. Another problem was the monthly data limit.

Now with fiber I have unlimited 1Gbps internet and unlimited mobile phone calls within Europe for less then 50 euro. No "land line" in this case, but am thinking about switching to another provider to get a better deal including a "land line". The latter is just an analog phone port on the modem, with which it should be possible to use old phones.

Very happy with the very fast internet. Can watch Dutch TV over it, download games or other big files like Linux iso's.

Another option for you would be to use voip and a so called gateway to analog. Something like this https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005002011261031.html

So just get the fiber internet and look for a voip subscription else where.

[Ground_Loop]

Why is it that no one ever --that I am aware of-- made a black box to connect cell service to building wiring enabling the continued use of land line phones with cell service.

[pcprogrammer]

Of course such things exist. This one is GSM to VOIP https://nl.aliexpress.com/item/1005001494994417.html and I have seen boxes for analog phones too. But you still need to power it yourself, just like your mobile phone. Not like how a land line works, with power from the line itself, to make it work when there is no power in your house.

[jmelson]

Why is it that no one ever --that I am aware of-- made a black box to connect cell service to building wiring enabling the continued use of land line phones with cell service.

My mother in law has a Verizon thing that supports DECT phones, but can also support wired extensions.  We didn't set up the wired connection, as she didn't need it.  The Verizon base station is basically a cell phone with a built-in DECT charger.
Jon

[CatalinaWOW]

I would definitely go for the fiber.  You will find uses for it that you didn't know you had.  And as others have said, it is not difficult to get an interface box that will let you operate your old phones.  You could even set up a small exchange so you can dial different rooms in your house.  Living alone there isn't much use for this feature, but it is an interesting way to use and display your items.

[themadhippy]

The latter is just an analog phone port on the modem, with which it should be possible to use old phones.

Exactly what ive got here,fibre to cabinet,then original phone wire from cabinet to house.Phone only works via the modem,so if the modems off ,no phone.

[IanB]

Why is it that no one ever --that I am aware of-- made a black box to connect cell service to building wiring enabling the continued use of land line phones with cell service.

For the past 20 years I have had cordless phones around the house and my current Panasonic unit connects with Bluetooth to my cell phone, so effectively I have the solution you describe. I can pick up the phone in any room and answer a mobile call or make a mobile call just like a landline. In fact, the Panasonic unit has a "cell phone only" mode for up to two cell phones, so you don't need to plug in a phone line at all.

[IanB]

So do I stick it out on copper for the next 6 years and enjoy my old phones for as long as possible, or take the pain and disappointment now and go fibre?!  I know it's not the end of the world but I feel so sad about this, the world is changing too fast for me!!

The phone company is phasing out copper here too, and doing it by making POTS service expensive and uncompetitive with other options to encourage people to switch.

On the other hand, if you have digital service inside the home the box will have a port to plug a phone into. This will support all modern phones. If you wish to support old phones, I suspect there is some kind of "old phone interface box" available somewhere that can provide the voltages and interface circuitry that old phones need to operate.

[jonpaul]

Bonsoir:

In USA Comcast cable is up to 50..100 M, the newer Motorola cable modems have a VOIP POTS jack.

The cost is $10/line /month vs 40..60 for Frontie POTS copper.

In France we have 100 M fiber, with VOIP POTS line and included French Mobile all for EU30/mo

Jon

[pcprogrammer]

The latter is just an analog phone port on the modem, with which it should be possible to use old phones.

Exactly what ive got here,fibre to cabinet,then original phone wire from cabinet to house.Phone only works via the modem,so if the modems off ,no phone.

The change to fiber is then just a small step, it will just replace the copper. Gives higher speeds and no risk when there is thunder and lightning, at least not via the phone line

[SiliconWizard]

Copper lines are getting deprecated in Europe with varying deadlines. Over here, it's gonna start in 2023. So they won't be selling any new contract for copper lines, but the existing ones will keep working for a couple years depending on the location. The end date (when they'll switch the copper networks off for good) is somwhere between 2025 and 2027 I think.

Of course the issue is that while copper lines were literally everywhere - even the smallest villages - fiber certainly will not.

[pcprogrammer]

Of course the issue is that while copper lines were literally everywhere - even the smallest villages - fiber certainly will not.

Unless you live in the Corrèze

Here just outside the village they even placed a connection box near a small derelict house that will never need it because there is no electricity nearby.

[PaulAm]

In my area (midwest US) the phone company has been deprecating copper for the last 20 years.  Basically, they're letting it rot and fewer techs know how to maintain it.  When I was last using it, line quality was abysmal.

I now live in a rural area and have to depend on an LTE modem for internet, which is not terrible, but not great either.  There are plans underway to run fiber to every residence in my county.  Money has been allocated so that is really going to happen within the next couple years.

There's a story about a local guy (who actually worked as a network engineer) who wanted fiber from the local cable company.  They were going to charge him $30K for the connection, which ticked him off so much he started his own ISP (bought the directional drilling equipment, compressors, etc by scrounging at auctions).  He was so successful he picked up the contract to provide fiber for a significant portion of the county.  That story made the national news

[JohanH]

I've never had a land line. I used an ethernet to VOIP adapter for a couple of years with a regular phone. You can get a number from a VOIP provider on the Internet, set the number in the box (web interface) and plug in any old phone. But check with the VOIP provider if emergency number works!

Now I'm on fiber and there is no more copper here.

[Bicurico]

I have fiber to home with internet (1GBit/200MBit), TV and phone. A SIM is included, too.

This comes with a router that outputs, besides 4 GBit RJ45 output ports, DVB-T encoded digital channels and analog CATV channels for my coaxial TV distribution and it has two connectors for regular phones (but only one is active, as I only have one phone line subscribed).

This means that if your ISP provides you with fiber, you will most certainly get a router that allows to connect your existing TV and Phone installation. This way you continue using your existing phones.

I am, however, unsure if this supports pulse dialing.

[JohanH]

Most VOIP adapters are made for tone dialing. But there are pulse to tone adapters that are supposed to work with VOIP.

[IanB]

Most VOIP adapters are made for tone dialing. But there are pulse to tone adapters that are supposed to work with VOIP.

Not only pulse dialing, but I imagine the big mechanical bell ringers on old phones might need more power to operate them than a modem/router is prepared to provide?

[JohanH]

I had a separate VOIP adapter that was independent from any router and modem. With such an adapter, you provide separate power to your phone. You also have to open the correct VOIP/SIP ports in your Internet router. Such an adapter isn't locked to your ISP, so you could subscribe to any VOIP/SIP provider on the Internet. I don't remember any more the model I used, but it looked similar to this:

https://www.amazon.com/Gateway-Portable-Adapter-Internet-Protocol/dp/B07W7V5Q6Q

[unknownparticle]

Most VOIP adapters are made for tone dialing. But there are pulse to tone adapters that are supposed to work with VOIP.

Not only pulse dialing, but I imagine the big mechanical bell ringers on old phones might need more power to operate them than a modem/router is prepared to provide?

Yes, the on hook voltage is 48 VDC and the ring voltage is 90-130 VAC at 20HZ superimposed on the 48 VDC. 

[andy3055]

I got a Magic Jack which is a VOIP unit. Ported over my old land-line number to it. MJ unit can be taken anywhere when I travel and if an ethernet connection is available,  I am set. This is including overseas! If I don't want to be bothered taking the unit and a regular phone along, I can set up forwarding to my cell phone as well. The cost is just $35 for the unit and yearly cost is only some $35 bucks with no long distance charges at all. Even International rates are minimal.

[rstofer]

Bonsoir:

In USA Comcast cable is up to 50..100 M, the newer Motorola cable modems have a VOIP POTS jack.

The cost is $10/line /month vs 40..60 for Frontie POTS copper.

In France we have 100 M fiber, with VOIP POTS line and included French Mobile all for EU30/mo

Jon

I have Comcast and it comes into the house on coax but fiber must extend to the neighborhood.  In any event, I get 1Gb speed from Ethernet and VoiceOverIP as a telephone jack on the cable modem.  The interface provides everything necessary for any plain old telephone including the 90V ringing.  I use a rotary dial phone just because I can...

Actually, I unplugged the telephone because the sales calls were coming in before I even knew the phone number.  In any event, I plan to stay with AT&T telephone service (which is carried on wire) because it has the superior 911 (emergency) service and that's important when you're really old.

[ferdieCX]

Here we have fiber to the house. The state owned telecom company installed also a router that has jacks to connect 2 POTS phones.
I am using a phone that I bought in the 90's. It dials with tone

[807]

Had a telephone line fault to my house a few days ago, no dial tone, so had to call in Openreach, the UK telephone and broadband infrastructure provider, via my BB provider.
So, yes I do still have a phone landline!  So, the BB provider took the opportunity to pitch for a new contract deal, as they do!  The choice was a new fibre connection, or continue with the snail speed copper.  I was undecided so she sweetened the offer by reducing the fibre below copper, but then mentioned in passing that copper is being phased out and will be obsolete and unavailable in 6 years!!!  This is by virtue of Open Reach network policy.  Now I had no idea that fibre was even available in my area, as it's rural and always at the end of the Q for everything, I can't even find the fibre cabinet and it is fibre to the property so it must be there somewhere!  I was on the Open Reach network update list and have not been er' updated!!
Now you are wondering, what is this fool blathering about!! Good question.  I collect and use old telephones and this means I will no longer be able to use them, as telephone landlines are not included with fibre BB!!
So do I stick it out on copper for the next 6 years and enjoy my old phones for as long as possible, or take the pain and disappointment now and go fibre?!  I know it's not the end of the world but I feel so sad about this, the world is changing too fast for me!!

As MK14 pointed out, you shouldn't have to decide to stay "full copper" or go "full fibre" (FTTH), you should be able to split the difference & have fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) like I have. I went FTTC a few years ago with Plusnet when they offered it for just £1 per month more than I was already paying for copper.

I've had online offers & guys knocking on my door trying to persuade me to go FTTH, but I want to keep my traditional landline for as long as I can. I still use it quite regularly, with the added advantage that it still works in power cuts. Also, FTTH isn't cheap!

[eti]

These companies forcing the “upgrade” (downgrade!) to VoIP is ridiculous. If you have only a house phone (wired) and a power cut on POTS and are trapped in a fire, you’re far better off than having some unnecessary digital VoIP gizmo which needs mains (or backup battery which CAN die) - and what if your internet dies - you die too!

So much for “progress”. Everyone’s trying to be “advanced” and yet K.I.S.S. stands true - ya can’t get no simpler and more robust than POTS.

The world has long been going more and more insane.

[JohanH]

Over here almost nobody use landlines any more. Everyone has mobile phones and practically the whole country is covered. Operators even tout mobile Internet as the first option (4G/5G router), but that's of course not an option for someone working from home that needs a fast and reliable connection. Fortunately more rural areas also have fiber here (at least the central parts). In my part of the country there are lots of community groups that built non-profit fiber networks together. We tried to start one in our village, too, but there weren't enough interest. Fortunately a nice commercial operator entered (in part due to our efforts) and built an active ethernet fiber network. When they did that, the nearest village finally got fiber by the local established operator, but of course the big telecom vendors only use asymmetrical PON/G-PON, so now they sit there on their 30 Mbit _shared_ PON uplink while we other can have symmetrical, full Gbit speed.

[tom66]

I live in a 30's house, in a relatively average area, supplied by overhead telephone lines, and just had 500Mbit/s fibre installed.  It feels "wrong"!  I could go up to 900Mbit/s.  I didn't take a landline because as far as I'm concerned my mobile phone is fine for everything.  The cost was almost the same as standard FTTC, I think £2 a month more.

[Zero999]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

[unknownparticle]

It seems that there are solutions then
There is also a fringe group, very fringe, that has developed a way to use Telex again!!  Great because I kept the Siemens T1000S telex machine that we used in our family business, I just couldn't bring myself to bin such a fantastically well engineered and made machine!  It is so long ago that I can't recall when we stopped using it. It would have been soon after low cost fax machines were introduced, so around late 80's early 90's.
The system developed by said fringe group is quite complex and requires a special coder decoder adapter. 
I loved using telex, especially the T1000S, that was the gold standard telex machine, floppy disc storage, on board crt monitor, etc, etc, and built like a tank, it's almost a 2 man lift!
Must get the adaptor and get it online!

[MK14]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

But you HAVEN'T got a proper landline, by the sound of it.  Because Fibre ONLY, can't conduct electricity, so it is powered by a box of tricks, in or near your home, somewhere.  So, if there is a (local) power cut, you will lose the ability to use your 'landline'.
A real (copper based) landline, will continue to work (usually), even in an extended power cut.  Which I believe is done by a bank of 48 volt lead-acid (or more modern) batteries, at the local telephone exchanges.

So, if you or anyone in your household or nearby.  Needs urgent (999 Emergency) services, and your mobile phone connection, decides to flake out, at the wrong/worst time.  Someone/people, could have bad things happen.

These days, I seem to hear many stories, where even if someone calls 999, for an urgent ambulance, in the UK.  It doesn't arrive for ages (even days), with unfortunate results, in some cases.

[Zero999]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

But you HAVEN'T got a proper landline, by the sound of it.  Because Fibre ONLY, can't conduct electricity, so it is powered by a box of tricks, in or near your home, somewhere.  So, if there is a (local) power cut, you will lose the ability to use your 'landline'.
A real (copper based) landline, will continue to work (usually), even in an extended power cut.  Which I believe is done by a bank of 48 volt lead-acid (or more modern) batteries, at the local telephone exchanges.

So, if you or anyone in your household or nearby.  Needs urgent (999 Emergency) services, and your mobile phone connection, decides to flake out, at the wrong/worst time.  Someone/people, could have bad things happen.

These days, I seem to hear many stories, where even if someone calls 999, for an urgent ambulance, in the UK.  It doesn't arrive for ages (even days), with unfortunate results, in some cases.

That's not true at all. My fibre connection has small UPS so the telephone service continues to work, during a power cut. It doesn't power the router, so the broadband will go down, but I'll still be able to make emergency calls.

[MK14]

That's not true at all. My fibre connection has small UPS so the telephone service continues to work, during a power cut. It doesn't power the router, so the broadband will go down, but I'll still be able to make emergency calls.

Who's small UPS is it.  Did you do it yourself?, or does the internet/phone provider, supply the small UPS?

I've NOT heard of such a thing, in the UK.  But it sounds an interesting solution.

[tom66]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

[MK14]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

I've done some googling around it, thanks to your post.  It seems BT (and perhaps other suppliers), are getting around those rules, by either ignoring them, or saying "THIS is ONLY a BROADBAND service, no phone services, included with it".

But there is lots of information, and it is difficult to digest it all, and know who is 100% right, and who is NOT, as regards the other websites.

Unfortunately, people in (e.g.) their eighties/nineties, who really need this, on safety grounds.  Potentially, don't realize/understand why/what/how/reasons why they need it in the first place, and are probably NOT able to sort out something, technically complicated like that themselves.  So really, I think it is a partial mess-up, by the authorities, standards creators, etc.

[tom66]

The wording is pretty clear:

CPs must provide a Battery Back Up unit for vulnerable customers that will give a minimum
of one hour of power for the router, in accordance with OFCOM guidance. If you do not
qualify as a vulnerable customer, you may wish to purchase one of these units from your CP
or from an independent supplier.

Doesn't matter if it's BB or phone. 

[Ice-Tea]

Don't they offer a modem with FXS ports? Should allow you to use your old telephones like before?

[MK14]

The wording is pretty clear:

CPs must provide a Battery Back Up unit for vulnerable customers that will give a minimum
of one hour of power for the router, in accordance with OFCOM guidance. If you do not
qualify as a vulnerable customer, you may wish to purchase one of these units from your CP
or from an independent supplier.

Doesn't matter if it's BB or phone.

Assuming that is what the regulations say.  That is TERRIBLE!

I'm VERY disappointed.

It represents a significant change in functionality, and shift in responsibilities.  Which could lead to injuries or deaths.

As I said before.  User reports, seem to say, that regulation is either being ignored, or has changed (in practice), so such units are not being made available, to the people who need them.

Saying "vulnerable" only, is complete nonsense, anyway.  Potentially anyone i.e. all users, could suddenly have need to make an emergency phone call.  So reducing the reliability of such phone calls, represents a danger to the public.

EDIT:  On reflection.  I haven't got access, to potentially high quality (reliable) reports, on the changes they are making and/or experts on issues like this.  It is quite possible, that because of the big increase of mobile phones, all over the place, and other modern day changes.  That in reality, the changes to landlines, are either sensible and/or from a practical/realistic point of view, perhaps, entirely correct.  So, maybe the regulations are right?

[tom66]

Just two percent of UK households do not have a mobile phone, according to recently released statistics.   That's a pretty small fraction who would be unable to make an emergency call.    For those in an area without a mobile phone signal, purchasing an inexpensive UPS at the cost of two months' phone service is not a huge ask.  The elderly or financially infirm would probably come under the "vulnerable" category though I agree OFCOM should standardise this. 

To appreciate the real world risk you've then got to work out how often it is you would have a correlated emergency - in other words no phone and a need to use it simultaneously.  A power cut in itself is not an emergency for most, so there is not necessarily a need to make a phone call;  and the average power availability for a UK household is in excess of 99.9%.  You could have a fire or similar knock out power to a building, but there is no guarantee the phone line will still be working either in that case.   And a large-area disaster like a flood, or maybe in the future with climate change forest/woodland fires, will present other issues for infrastructure.  So I'm not really sure it is as big a problem as you state.

[MK14]

Just two percent of UK households do not have a mobile phone, according to recently released statistics.   That's a pretty small fraction who would be unable to make an emergency call.    For those in an area without a mobile phone signal, purchasing an inexpensive UPS at the cost of two months' phone service is not a huge ask.  The elderly or financially infirm would probably come under the "vulnerable" category though I agree OFCOM should standardise this. 

To appreciate the real world risk you've then got to work out how often it is you would have a correlated emergency - in other words no phone and a need to use it simultaneously.  A power cut in itself is not an emergency for most, so there is not necessarily a need to make a phone call;  and the average power availability for a UK household is in excess of 99.9%.  You could have a fire or similar knock out power to a building, but there is no guarantee the phone line will still be working either in that case.   And a large-area disaster like a flood, or maybe in the future with climate change forest/woodland fires, will present other issues for infrastructure.  So I'm not really sure it is as big a problem as you state.

That makes a lot of sense.

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

[IanB]

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

[MK14]

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

Thanks, good point.

The thing is, I suspect, some people, because of 4G/5G and future developments of such services.  Might not even go the fibre route, and may just go all mobile (and similar), at home and have no physical connection (phone lines or fibre) at all.

As the 4G/5G etc services, become much faster, cheaper and more readily available.  A shift to such services, even for home landline/broadband services, makes sense.

[unknownparticle]

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

This is true to a certain extent.  Open Reach, the UK network provider, inherited all the infrastructure when they took over BT.  That infrastructure was developed over many decades by the predecessors to BT, GPO telephones and Post Office Telephones.  It comprises of a huge number of exchange buildings, admin offices, engineering centres etc, etc.  So for any given area, there will be at least one exchange building, in rural area's this will be very small and unmanned, literally a brick shed with an emergency genny, back up batteries and the exchange equipment.  As the area's increase in population density then the buildings become larger with more equipment, but rarely manned.
This issue is complicated by virtue of retail service providers, like Virgin, EE, etc, etc, who will have their own exchange equipment on the racks for their customers, configured for the packages they provide, but all maintained and serviced by Open Reach who charge the retail providers accordingly.  So it's a complicated story, as always though, because of the commercial agenda, it's the consumer who will suffer the consequences of network development.  Open Reach is guilty of rolling out high speed BB at a snails pace, particularly in less populated area's where the return is much slower, and this despite pressure from succeeding governments to get the job done. Problem is with Open Reach is that they run with the hare and the hounds, providing both Infrastructure and also retail services, so they have a vested interest to prioritise their own customers and hold back competing providers.
For example, I've been on the Open Reach service update list for fibre for over 10 years!!!  And until this fault revealed that it was available in my area I was unaware of that!
This is a big problem for the UK, their policy has held us back with poor BB service and speed, whereas in other parts of the world they've had gigaspeed BB for years!!! 
So now, by the time they provide coverage for all the UK,  technology will have made it all obsolete!!  As has been mentioned, it will be 5G mobile in a short time.
If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial. 

[IanB]

This is a big problem for the UK, their policy has held us back with poor BB service and speed, whereas in other parts of the world they've had gigaspeed BB for years!!!

If you think it's bad in the UK, you could imagine what it's like in the USA, where it is even worse. Over here everything is driven by commercial interests, and if it doesn't generate profit it won't be provided. So both broadband and mobile phone service is expensive and has poor coverage outside big cities. What's more cable providers have a monopoly in any given geographical area, so there is little to no competition.

It's amazing how many videos I watch where the phone shows "no signal" as soon as you leave town. Even on major freeways you can lose coverage.

[themadhippy]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

[unknownparticle]

Fibre for phone lines before the internet?!  What would have been the point?

[MK14]

Fibre for phone lines before the internet?!  What would have been the point?

Maybe it could have been used to create lots of TV channels, at potentially high resolution (but probably with deteriorating programme quality, i.e. 3 good quality channels ONLY, vs 150 somewhat useless channels (ones that don't show the best of entertainment), with black and white movies from 60 years ago, which were not of very good programme quality, even at the time, and tons of adverts), a bit like what was latter known as Virgin Cable (TV), and earlier names (various takeovers and name changes, etc, in the past).

[Zero999]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

I've done some googling around it, thanks to your post.  It seems BT (and perhaps other suppliers), are getting around those rules, by either ignoring them, or saying "THIS is ONLY a BROADBAND service, no phone services, included with it".

But there is lots of information, and it is difficult to digest it all, and know who is 100% right, and who is NOT, as regards the other websites.

Unfortunately, people in (e.g.) their eighties/nineties, who really need this, on safety grounds.  Potentially, don't realize/understand why/what/how/reasons why they need it in the first place, and are probably NOT able to sort out something, technically complicated like that themselves.  So really, I think it is a partial mess-up, by the authorities, standards creators, etc.

I'm not especially vulnerable. The UPS came with the house, which was a new build. It takes 12V from a 12V 1A mains adaptor and presumably gives 12V out, but I haven't measured the voltage and the label is probably on the back, where it's fixed to the wall. I don't know how long it provides a backup for.  I'm not too worried because it's very unlikely my mobile won't get any signal, the UPS's battery will have run flat and I need to make an emergency call.

[eti]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

[themadhippy]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

The engineering side of bt was often at the forefront of technology,as was there predecessor ,the gpo. But the need for shareholder profits soon stopped that.

[MK14]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

You can't say that.  Maybe you are too young to know, but BT created the really nice, Buzby's adverts.  How can you dislike a company which brings the Buzby's into existence?

[MK14]

I'm not especially vulnerable. The UPS came with the house, which was a new build. It takes 12V from a 12V 1A mains adaptor and presumably gives 12V out, but I haven't measured the voltage and the label is probably on the back, where it's fixed to the wall. I don't know how long it provides a backup for.  I'm not too worried because it's very unlikely my mobile won't get any signal, the UPS's battery will have run flat and I need to make an emergency call.

Thanks.  I'm pleased to know that the (UPS) option exists.

I wonder who has to pay, when, sooner or later.  That UPS device breaks and/or if it can 'silently' break, i.e. without giving any warning signs that it has passed its useful (e.g. battery) life expectancy.
If it is considered part of the infrastructure, I suspect they (BT), would be responsible.  But if not, the customer would probably have to sort it out, and foot the bill.

[PlainName]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

[IanB]

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

I do also remember that time, when phones were hard-wired into a junction box, and you could only get your phone from a limited selection offered by the GPO or its successors. Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

The important change was the de-regulation that let you have RJ11 BT modular phone sockets installed and buy your own phones from any retailer to plug into them. The other detail was that you weren't "supposed" to plug American phones or modems into the UK system, even though they did actually work.

[eti]

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

I do also remember that time, when phones were hard-wired into a junction box, and you could only get your phone from a limited selection offered by the GPO or its successors. Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

The important change was the de-regulation that let you have RJ11 phone sockets installed and buy your own phones from any retailer to plug into them. The other detail was that you weren't "supposed" to plug American phones or modems into the UK system, even though they did actually work.

The BT standard phone plugs are of type “431A” and less commonly “631A”, and never RJ11 from CPE to master or extension socket.   There was an RJ11 on the other end of the lead, so that a damaged lead could be unlatched and replaced etc.

“431A” is the 4 pin version, of which pins 2 & 5 are the loop and I think bell wire is pin 4 (there’s a 470K OOS “Opt Out Of Service” resistor + a 2.2uF cap in series across the loop in the standard NTE5 master socket. The R/C pair tells the exchange when there’s no CPE connected, and the cap is to pass the 70-90 ish V/AC @ 17hz current to the bell)

The 2,4 & 5 pins were paralleled up to extension sockets via a detachable faceplate, moulded into which was a (“431A”? Not sure if “631A” maybe?) plug which mated directly into a matching socket on the fixed part of the NTE5. The faceplate carried Krone punch down terminals to which you’d punch down the solid core extension wiring. I spent far too much time “playing” with BT systems (phreaking) as a teenager, hacking Dad’s phone locks (the stupid dial padlock type and another better one stocked by RS which went between the socket and the phone, and was programmable.)

visited my villages Strowger exchange as a teenager, and later when they upgraded it to Ericsson “System Y”, I was allowed to take what I wanted from the skip full of scrap outside. I wish I’d kept some of the selectors - I had a GPO ringing machine too!

I think “631A” may have been for Telex etc. I don’t recall.

[IanB]

The BT standard phone plugs are of type “431A” and less commonly “631A”, and never RJ11 from CPE to master or extension socket.   There was an RJ11 on the other end of the lead, so that a damaged lead could be unlatched and replaced etc.

“431A” is the 4 pin version, of which pins 2 & 5 are the loop and I think bell wire is pin 4 (there’s a 470K OOS “Opt Out Of Service” resistor + a 2.2uF cap in series across the loop; the R/C pair tells the exchange when there’s no CPE connected, and the cap is to pass the 70-90 ish V/AC @ 17hz current to the bell)

I think “631A” may have been for Telex etc. I don’t recall.

Yes, you're right, I had forgotten that. It's been a while since I've looked at one. They are of course much bigger than an RJ11 and a different shape.

[eti]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

You can't say that.  Maybe you are too young to know, but BT created the really nice, Buzby's adverts.  How can you dislike a company which brings the Buzby's into existence?

I can and did say it. I’m in my late 40s so yeah I remember those ads (just).  BT wasted a lot of time and resources. I knew a few people who worked for them, and would often call a senior engineer (I’d never met him) and quiz him about the finer technicalities of the phone network. They’re a dopey company who waste money and rip people off. Back before the internet and before LLU was a thing, they were a monopoly and a fat, lazy one.

[MK14]

I can and did say it. I’m in my late 40s so yeah I remember those ads (just).  BT wasted a lot of time and resources. I knew a few people who worked for them, and would often call a senior engineer (I’d never met him) and quiz him about the finer technicalities of the phone network. They’re a dopey company who waste money and rip people off. Back before the internet and before LLU was a thing, they were a monopoly and a fat, lazy one.

I was somewhat jesting, but the Buzby cartoon characters, were fun.

The politics, of very big companies/organisations such as BT, can get quite tricky.  Opinions, as to the best solutions, can vary a lot, e.g. along political lines, such as Nationalise vs Privatise vs Split into smaller companies/organisations vs other solutions.

According to public opinions (user reports), when I looked, a number of years ago.  BT doesn't do too well, in the customer satisfaction department, for their broadband services.

Even if a person goes back in a time-machine, and at the time and date they go back, they are given full authority, to decide how BT and the UKs phone/internet infrastructure, is to be done.  The best course of action(s), are not necessarily obvious.  Some people may think (opinions), that they could do a marvelous job of restructuring the situation.

But I suspect, in practice.  It is a massive minefield of a task, to handle such a complicated task.  Various technologies available at different price points, depending on the year.  Huge amounts of per-existing infrastructure.  A massive customer base, who will potentially complain, if at any time during the upgrade processes, things don't go to plan.

Then there also is money availability, and what actions or not, the various competitors do or don't do.

On top of that, BT have to cope with various changes of Government / Prime ministers, who may change the rules, regulations, laws, money allocations, and even the requirements, at the drop of a hat.

I bet in practice, it is a very difficult job, running BT, and if you don't get it quite right, the man at the top, could get replaced (sacked) by the board of directors (or government, if nationalised), or shareholders.

It is just so easy to sit on a couch, and criticise various big entities, without really understanding all the intricacies going on.

[PlainName]

According to public opinions (user reports), when I looked, a number of years ago.  BT doesn't do too well, in the customer satisfaction department, for their broadband services.

BT aren't one company now. There is BT Broadband who basically do the backbone stuff (rather like British Rail look after the tracks and infrastructure on the railways). They are pretty decent and do the job. Then there is BT Retail who sell broadband and the like to consumers. These are the ones that are pillocks and worth keeping well away from. The railway equivalent would be the train operators like Avanti.

[unknownparticle]

Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

Yup, I have several, all of which still work!!  In fact one of them is my daily driver at the mo!!  It's quite funny to see the faces on people if they hear it 'ring', or rather chirp!!  Mine are the push button dial type, so quite 'modern' really!  Strange thing is, I hated them when they were introduced, but am very fond of them now!!  Also, we, as a family, had one of the first push button dial phones, ie, the otherwise standard looking phone but with a push button dial unit instead of a dial.  It was a big deal when introduced and had to be installed with a training session by the engineer when delivered!!  The electronics were quite interesting, including a rechargeable NiCad battery to power them!  The battery charged from the phone line and the circuitry was powered by the battery.  Phone still had a bell though, powered by the line!  Still have that very phone, I 'adopted' it when we moved!!

[PlainName]

had to be installed with a training session by the engineer when delivered!!

Quite a step down from that to being lucky to have a single A7 sheet of 2 point Chinglish nowadays.

[steve30]

At the moment you can have a copper POTS line and a fibre FTTP line simultaneously, but you'd have to pay for both, which would work out expensive. The POTS is going to be discontinued from 2025, so while you will still (to an extent) be able to get ADSL/VDSL over copper after that, there will be no analogue telephone service on the copper wire.

My recommendation is to get VoIP. I pay £1.20/month for a number and a couple of pence per minute with Andrews & Arnold. This will work from any internet connection, but if you have fibre (FTTP), there should be no packet loss and negligible latency, which is ideal for VoIP. If you use a proper VoIP provider (like A&A), you can use whatever equipment you choose. This could be a dedicated VoIP phone, or it could be an analogue telephone adaptor. Personally, I have both; a Snom 720 is my main phone, and a GPO 746 is hooked up to a Grandstream ATA. Grandstream ATAs support pulse dialling and are capable of ringing the bells.

If you have "extension wiring" in your house and wish to use this with your telephones, you can simply disconnect your wiring from the old BT line, and hook it up to your ATA: https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

The other option is "BT Digital Voice" which most BT resellers offer as a POTS replacement. This is a walled garden VoIP service where the ISP will provide you with a Modem-Router-AP-ATA combi unit, and you plug your analogue phone into the back of the router. This however seems quite expensive compared to standard VoIP providers like A&A and Sipgate etc. I have never used this personally so can't comment on it.

I hope that might be helpful.

[coppice]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

Er, no. At the end of the 80s I was at STC/Nortel. Colleagues were working on early passive optical networking ideas, but it really wasn't ready for market. By the mid 90s the details were in better shape, and some deployments could probably have got off the ground then. There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale. In those days it was considered vital to have power for the phone in an emergency. Things like company PBXs were generally required to have at least 8 hours battery backup. Maintaining such backup in every home would have been a serious problem, as batteries aged. A lot of the design of BRI ISDN in the 80s had been focussed on this issue, only relying on the integrity of the phone line to be able to power the customer premises equipment. Nobody had a real power solution for passive optical networks. Ubiquitous cell phones now side step this issue.

[themadhippy]

There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale

strange, the head of bt engineering is on record saying

"In 1986, I managed to get fibre to the home cheaper than copper and we started a programme where we built factories for manufacturing the system. By 1990, we had two factories, one in Ipswich and one in Birmingham, where were manufacturing components for systems to roll out to the local loop".

As an aside was that the houses of the future or some such nonsense in ,i think ,heelands

[coppice]

There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale

strange, the head of bt engineering is on record saying

"In 1986, I managed to get fibre to the home cheaper than copper and we started a programme where we built factories for manufacturing the system. By 1990, we had two factories, one in Ipswich and one in Birmingham, where were manufacturing components for systems to roll out to the local loop".

As an aside was that the houses of the future or some such nonsense in ,i think ,heelands

In 1986 we were developing the first generation of ISDN mux for BT, to be able to put a box in a street cabinet with a PRI ISDN fibre to the exchange, and copper to the surrounding houses carrying BRI ISDN. It was held back because it was really expensive compared to the conventional phone lines of the time. What you have read sounds very 1980s Tomorrow's World, where everything is so much better than reality.

Here's an example of BT's lack of realism in the 1980s. The subscriber line chip we developed for that mux had to echo cancel the BRI line. This was an expensive thing to do with 1980s technology, especially if you wanted to cancel a really long echo. BT demanded we cancel well enough for really long lines. We said that would be expensive. They said no problem. We built it, and it worked. They complained about the price.

[vad]

The last time I had landline was in Australia 9 years ago. We do not have landline in our house in Boston. There is 1 Gbps fiber (Verizon Fios) and the area has good 5G mobile coverage.

I did not miss landline for a moment.

[unknownparticle]

There is some bl00dy interesting stuff here, glad I started this topic!!
Update on my fault, it is now fully resolved, after THREE engineer visits!!!  None of the issues were in my property, all line and junction issues.
I now have the quietest line I've ever had and the BB connection speed has improved!!  So there must have been some longstanding neglected problems going on.  It was amusing watching the engineers from my CCTV cam on my phone!!  There were 3 Open Reach vans at one point!!

[rstofer]

The last time I had landline was in Australia 9 years ago. We do not have landline in our house in Boston. There is 1 Gbps fiber (Verizon Fios) and the area has good 5G mobile coverage.

I did not miss landline for a moment.

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

[IanB]

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

The FCC has rules that require this also to be the case with a digital (VoIP) line that you might have from a cable provider or ISP. The remaining detail is one of power outages, when you need to include the battery backup option for the modem/router if you want to ensure continuity of service.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/voip-and-911-service

[rstofer]

In one case, the landline, the Telco maintains the power supply.  I live outside of town with overhead distribution so I wouldn't give 10 cents for a bet on continuity of electricity.  There are just too many power poles attacking cars. Turns out, the closest open WiFi is on the same pole with our electricity (and telco). 

Our internet, on bad days, bounces up and down like a yo-yo.  Our cell service is so bad that our provider gave us a microtower to run over the yo-yo internet.  The other provider (company cell phone) doesn't have a tower anywhere near.  That cellphone hardly ever works.

By far, the most reliable service is the plain old-fashioned landline with power provided by the Telco.

[vad]

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

iPhone and Apple Watch does share GPS location with emergency services when you call them with Emergency SOS, according to Apple.

Also, I am paying Massachusetts 911 $1.50 service charge every month for each of 5 wireless lines in our household. And the charge would be the same for a landline, if we had one. So I expect same level of service.

[IanB]

Our internet, on bad days, bounces up and down like a yo-yo.  Our cell service is so bad that our provider gave us a microtower to run over the yo-yo internet.  The other provider (company cell phone) doesn't have a tower anywhere near.  That cellphone hardly ever works.

The joys of living in a third world country