The end (almost) of an era!!

[807]

Had a telephone line fault to my house a few days ago, no dial tone, so had to call in Openreach, the UK telephone and broadband infrastructure provider, via my BB provider.
So, yes I do still have a phone landline!  So, the BB provider took the opportunity to pitch for a new contract deal, as they do!  The choice was a new fibre connection, or continue with the snail speed copper.  I was undecided so she sweetened the offer by reducing the fibre below copper, but then mentioned in passing that copper is being phased out and will be obsolete and unavailable in 6 years!!!  This is by virtue of Open Reach network policy.  Now I had no idea that fibre was even available in my area, as it's rural and always at the end of the Q for everything, I can't even find the fibre cabinet and it is fibre to the property so it must be there somewhere!  I was on the Open Reach network update list and have not been er' updated!!
Now you are wondering, what is this fool blathering about!! Good question.  I collect and use old telephones and this means I will no longer be able to use them, as telephone landlines are not included with fibre BB!!
So do I stick it out on copper for the next 6 years and enjoy my old phones for as long as possible, or take the pain and disappointment now and go fibre?!  I know it's not the end of the world but I feel so sad about this, the world is changing too fast for me!!

As MK14 pointed out, you shouldn't have to decide to stay "full copper" or go "full fibre" (FTTH), you should be able to split the difference & have fibre to the cabinet (FTTC) like I have. I went FTTC a few years ago with Plusnet when they offered it for just £1 per month more than I was already paying for copper.

I've had online offers & guys knocking on my door trying to persuade me to go FTTH, but I want to keep my traditional landline for as long as I can. I still use it quite regularly, with the added advantage that it still works in power cuts. Also, FTTH isn't cheap!

[eti]

These companies forcing the “upgrade” (downgrade!) to VoIP is ridiculous. If you have only a house phone (wired) and a power cut on POTS and are trapped in a fire, you’re far better off than having some unnecessary digital VoIP gizmo which needs mains (or backup battery which CAN die) - and what if your internet dies - you die too!

So much for “progress”. Everyone’s trying to be “advanced” and yet K.I.S.S. stands true - ya can’t get no simpler and more robust than POTS.

The world has long been going more and more insane.

[JohanH]

Over here almost nobody use landlines any more. Everyone has mobile phones and practically the whole country is covered. Operators even tout mobile Internet as the first option (4G/5G router), but that's of course not an option for someone working from home that needs a fast and reliable connection. Fortunately more rural areas also have fiber here (at least the central parts). In my part of the country there are lots of community groups that built non-profit fiber networks together. We tried to start one in our village, too, but there weren't enough interest. Fortunately a nice commercial operator entered (in part due to our efforts) and built an active ethernet fiber network. When they did that, the nearest village finally got fiber by the local established operator, but of course the big telecom vendors only use asymmetrical PON/G-PON, so now they sit there on their 30 Mbit _shared_ PON uplink while we other can have symmetrical, full Gbit speed.

[tom66]

I live in a 30's house, in a relatively average area, supplied by overhead telephone lines, and just had 500Mbit/s fibre installed.  It feels "wrong"!  I could go up to 900Mbit/s.  I didn't take a landline because as far as I'm concerned my mobile phone is fine for everything.  The cost was almost the same as standard FTTC, I think £2 a month more.

[Zero999]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

[unknownparticle]

It seems that there are solutions then
There is also a fringe group, very fringe, that has developed a way to use Telex again!!  Great because I kept the Siemens T1000S telex machine that we used in our family business, I just couldn't bring myself to bin such a fantastically well engineered and made machine!  It is so long ago that I can't recall when we stopped using it. It would have been soon after low cost fax machines were introduced, so around late 80's early 90's.
The system developed by said fringe group is quite complex and requires a special coder decoder adapter. 
I loved using telex, especially the T1000S, that was the gold standard telex machine, floppy disc storage, on board crt monitor, etc, etc, and built like a tank, it's almost a 2 man lift!
Must get the adaptor and get it online!

[MK14]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

But you HAVEN'T got a proper landline, by the sound of it.  Because Fibre ONLY, can't conduct electricity, so it is powered by a box of tricks, in or near your home, somewhere.  So, if there is a (local) power cut, you will lose the ability to use your 'landline'.
A real (copper based) landline, will continue to work (usually), even in an extended power cut.  Which I believe is done by a bank of 48 volt lead-acid (or more modern) batteries, at the local telephone exchanges.

So, if you or anyone in your household or nearby.  Needs urgent (999 Emergency) services, and your mobile phone connection, decides to flake out, at the wrong/worst time.  Someone/people, could have bad things happen.

These days, I seem to hear many stories, where even if someone calls 999, for an urgent ambulance, in the UK.  It doesn't arrive for ages (even days), with unfortunate results, in some cases.

[Zero999]

Landlines aren't going obsolete, just copper wire. My house is just over 4 years old and doesn't have copper, only fibre. It has a landline and I would never get rid of it, as despite being in an urban area, my mobile phone service is flaky.

But you HAVEN'T got a proper landline, by the sound of it.  Because Fibre ONLY, can't conduct electricity, so it is powered by a box of tricks, in or near your home, somewhere.  So, if there is a (local) power cut, you will lose the ability to use your 'landline'.
A real (copper based) landline, will continue to work (usually), even in an extended power cut.  Which I believe is done by a bank of 48 volt lead-acid (or more modern) batteries, at the local telephone exchanges.

So, if you or anyone in your household or nearby.  Needs urgent (999 Emergency) services, and your mobile phone connection, decides to flake out, at the wrong/worst time.  Someone/people, could have bad things happen.

These days, I seem to hear many stories, where even if someone calls 999, for an urgent ambulance, in the UK.  It doesn't arrive for ages (even days), with unfortunate results, in some cases.

That's not true at all. My fibre connection has small UPS so the telephone service continues to work, during a power cut. It doesn't power the router, so the broadband will go down, but I'll still be able to make emergency calls.

[MK14]

That's not true at all. My fibre connection has small UPS so the telephone service continues to work, during a power cut. It doesn't power the router, so the broadband will go down, but I'll still be able to make emergency calls.

Who's small UPS is it.  Did you do it yourself?, or does the internet/phone provider, supply the small UPS?

I've NOT heard of such a thing, in the UK.  But it sounds an interesting solution.

[tom66]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

[MK14]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

I've done some googling around it, thanks to your post.  It seems BT (and perhaps other suppliers), are getting around those rules, by either ignoring them, or saying "THIS is ONLY a BROADBAND service, no phone services, included with it".

But there is lots of information, and it is difficult to digest it all, and know who is 100% right, and who is NOT, as regards the other websites.

Unfortunately, people in (e.g.) their eighties/nineties, who really need this, on safety grounds.  Potentially, don't realize/understand why/what/how/reasons why they need it in the first place, and are probably NOT able to sort out something, technically complicated like that themselves.  So really, I think it is a partial mess-up, by the authorities, standards creators, etc.

[tom66]

The wording is pretty clear:

CPs must provide a Battery Back Up unit for vulnerable customers that will give a minimum
of one hour of power for the router, in accordance with OFCOM guidance. If you do not
qualify as a vulnerable customer, you may wish to purchase one of these units from your CP
or from an independent supplier.

Doesn't matter if it's BB or phone. 

[Ice-Tea]

Don't they offer a modem with FXS ports? Should allow you to use your old telephones like before?

[MK14]

The wording is pretty clear:

CPs must provide a Battery Back Up unit for vulnerable customers that will give a minimum
of one hour of power for the router, in accordance with OFCOM guidance. If you do not
qualify as a vulnerable customer, you may wish to purchase one of these units from your CP
or from an independent supplier.

Doesn't matter if it's BB or phone.

Assuming that is what the regulations say.  That is TERRIBLE!

I'm VERY disappointed.

It represents a significant change in functionality, and shift in responsibilities.  Which could lead to injuries or deaths.

As I said before.  User reports, seem to say, that regulation is either being ignored, or has changed (in practice), so such units are not being made available, to the people who need them.

Saying "vulnerable" only, is complete nonsense, anyway.  Potentially anyone i.e. all users, could suddenly have need to make an emergency phone call.  So reducing the reliability of such phone calls, represents a danger to the public.

EDIT:  On reflection.  I haven't got access, to potentially high quality (reliable) reports, on the changes they are making and/or experts on issues like this.  It is quite possible, that because of the big increase of mobile phones, all over the place, and other modern day changes.  That in reality, the changes to landlines, are either sensible and/or from a practical/realistic point of view, perhaps, entirely correct.  So, maybe the regulations are right?

[tom66]

Just two percent of UK households do not have a mobile phone, according to recently released statistics.   That's a pretty small fraction who would be unable to make an emergency call.    For those in an area without a mobile phone signal, purchasing an inexpensive UPS at the cost of two months' phone service is not a huge ask.  The elderly or financially infirm would probably come under the "vulnerable" category though I agree OFCOM should standardise this. 

To appreciate the real world risk you've then got to work out how often it is you would have a correlated emergency - in other words no phone and a need to use it simultaneously.  A power cut in itself is not an emergency for most, so there is not necessarily a need to make a phone call;  and the average power availability for a UK household is in excess of 99.9%.  You could have a fire or similar knock out power to a building, but there is no guarantee the phone line will still be working either in that case.   And a large-area disaster like a flood, or maybe in the future with climate change forest/woodland fires, will present other issues for infrastructure.  So I'm not really sure it is as big a problem as you state.

[MK14]

Just two percent of UK households do not have a mobile phone, according to recently released statistics.   That's a pretty small fraction who would be unable to make an emergency call.    For those in an area without a mobile phone signal, purchasing an inexpensive UPS at the cost of two months' phone service is not a huge ask.  The elderly or financially infirm would probably come under the "vulnerable" category though I agree OFCOM should standardise this. 

To appreciate the real world risk you've then got to work out how often it is you would have a correlated emergency - in other words no phone and a need to use it simultaneously.  A power cut in itself is not an emergency for most, so there is not necessarily a need to make a phone call;  and the average power availability for a UK household is in excess of 99.9%.  You could have a fire or similar knock out power to a building, but there is no guarantee the phone line will still be working either in that case.   And a large-area disaster like a flood, or maybe in the future with climate change forest/woodland fires, will present other issues for infrastructure.  So I'm not really sure it is as big a problem as you state.

That makes a lot of sense.

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

[IanB]

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

[MK14]

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

Thanks, good point.

The thing is, I suspect, some people, because of 4G/5G and future developments of such services.  Might not even go the fibre route, and may just go all mobile (and similar), at home and have no physical connection (phone lines or fibre) at all.

As the 4G/5G etc services, become much faster, cheaper and more readily available.  A shift to such services, even for home landline/broadband services, makes sense.

[unknownparticle]

I still would have preferred a solution, something on the lines of having a thin copper wire(s), running along the fibre cable (bundled together), between the street cabinet and peoples homes.  Then it could be designed to carry on working, even if there is a power cut.

I think it is not the copper wires that are the expense, it is the telephone exchange at the other end of the copper. Think a large building with battery banks and chargers and racks of equipment and so on that have to be maintained.

This is true to a certain extent.  Open Reach, the UK network provider, inherited all the infrastructure when they took over BT.  That infrastructure was developed over many decades by the predecessors to BT, GPO telephones and Post Office Telephones.  It comprises of a huge number of exchange buildings, admin offices, engineering centres etc, etc.  So for any given area, there will be at least one exchange building, in rural area's this will be very small and unmanned, literally a brick shed with an emergency genny, back up batteries and the exchange equipment.  As the area's increase in population density then the buildings become larger with more equipment, but rarely manned.
This issue is complicated by virtue of retail service providers, like Virgin, EE, etc, etc, who will have their own exchange equipment on the racks for their customers, configured for the packages they provide, but all maintained and serviced by Open Reach who charge the retail providers accordingly.  So it's a complicated story, as always though, because of the commercial agenda, it's the consumer who will suffer the consequences of network development.  Open Reach is guilty of rolling out high speed BB at a snails pace, particularly in less populated area's where the return is much slower, and this despite pressure from succeeding governments to get the job done. Problem is with Open Reach is that they run with the hare and the hounds, providing both Infrastructure and also retail services, so they have a vested interest to prioritise their own customers and hold back competing providers.
For example, I've been on the Open Reach service update list for fibre for over 10 years!!!  And until this fault revealed that it was available in my area I was unaware of that!
This is a big problem for the UK, their policy has held us back with poor BB service and speed, whereas in other parts of the world they've had gigaspeed BB for years!!! 
So now, by the time they provide coverage for all the UK,  technology will have made it all obsolete!!  As has been mentioned, it will be 5G mobile in a short time.
If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial. 

[IanB]

This is a big problem for the UK, their policy has held us back with poor BB service and speed, whereas in other parts of the world they've had gigaspeed BB for years!!!

If you think it's bad in the UK, you could imagine what it's like in the USA, where it is even worse. Over here everything is driven by commercial interests, and if it doesn't generate profit it won't be provided. So both broadband and mobile phone service is expensive and has poor coverage outside big cities. What's more cable providers have a monopoly in any given geographical area, so there is little to no competition.

It's amazing how many videos I watch where the phone shows "no signal" as soon as you leave town. Even on major freeways you can lose coverage.

[themadhippy]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

[unknownparticle]

Fibre for phone lines before the internet?!  What would have been the point?

[MK14]

Fibre for phone lines before the internet?!  What would have been the point?

Maybe it could have been used to create lots of TV channels, at potentially high resolution (but probably with deteriorating programme quality, i.e. 3 good quality channels ONLY, vs 150 somewhat useless channels (ones that don't show the best of entertainment), with black and white movies from 60 years ago, which were not of very good programme quality, even at the time, and tons of adverts), a bit like what was latter known as Virgin Cable (TV), and earlier names (various takeovers and name changes, etc, in the past).

[Zero999]

BT are required to supply vulnerable customers with a UPS solution for powering the telephone during power cuts, F.O.C.  It's a £60 UPS from Amazon more or less, but it will run a <10W handset for about an hour or two.  The telephone exchange/fibre unbundlers have backup batteries within them, not sure how long these last.

I've done some googling around it, thanks to your post.  It seems BT (and perhaps other suppliers), are getting around those rules, by either ignoring them, or saying "THIS is ONLY a BROADBAND service, no phone services, included with it".

But there is lots of information, and it is difficult to digest it all, and know who is 100% right, and who is NOT, as regards the other websites.

Unfortunately, people in (e.g.) their eighties/nineties, who really need this, on safety grounds.  Potentially, don't realize/understand why/what/how/reasons why they need it in the first place, and are probably NOT able to sort out something, technically complicated like that themselves.  So really, I think it is a partial mess-up, by the authorities, standards creators, etc.

I'm not especially vulnerable. The UPS came with the house, which was a new build. It takes 12V from a 12V 1A mains adaptor and presumably gives 12V out, but I haven't measured the voltage and the label is probably on the back, where it's fixed to the wall. I don't know how long it provides a backup for.  I'm not too worried because it's very unlikely my mobile won't get any signal, the UPS's battery will have run flat and I need to make an emergency call.

[eti]

BT are bumbling fools always were.