The end (almost) of an era!!

[themadhippy]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

The engineering side of bt was often at the forefront of technology,as was there predecessor ,the gpo. But the need for shareholder profits soon stopped that.

[MK14]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

You can't say that.  Maybe you are too young to know, but BT created the really nice, Buzby's adverts.  How can you dislike a company which brings the Buzby's into existence?

[MK14]

I'm not especially vulnerable. The UPS came with the house, which was a new build. It takes 12V from a 12V 1A mains adaptor and presumably gives 12V out, but I haven't measured the voltage and the label is probably on the back, where it's fixed to the wall. I don't know how long it provides a backup for.  I'm not too worried because it's very unlikely my mobile won't get any signal, the UPS's battery will have run flat and I need to make an emergency call.

Thanks.  I'm pleased to know that the (UPS) option exists.

I wonder who has to pay, when, sooner or later.  That UPS device breaks and/or if it can 'silently' break, i.e. without giving any warning signs that it has passed its useful (e.g. battery) life expectancy.
If it is considered part of the infrastructure, I suspect they (BT), would be responsible.  But if not, the customer would probably have to sort it out, and foot the bill.

[PlainName]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

[IanB]

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

I do also remember that time, when phones were hard-wired into a junction box, and you could only get your phone from a limited selection offered by the GPO or its successors. Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

The important change was the de-regulation that let you have RJ11 BT modular phone sockets installed and buy your own phones from any retailer to plug into them. The other detail was that you weren't "supposed" to plug American phones or modems into the UK system, even though they did actually work.

[eti]

I was there, but can't remember that detail. What I do remember is not being allowed to connect anything to the phone line and waits of forever for a line to be installed, or just a phone connected to it. If Thatcher's government was the one that removed all that and let me connect modems and pretty much anything I liked to the line, I'd find it hard to get irate with them.

I do also remember that time, when phones were hard-wired into a junction box, and you could only get your phone from a limited selection offered by the GPO or its successors. Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

The important change was the de-regulation that let you have RJ11 phone sockets installed and buy your own phones from any retailer to plug into them. The other detail was that you weren't "supposed" to plug American phones or modems into the UK system, even though they did actually work.

The BT standard phone plugs are of type “431A” and less commonly “631A”, and never RJ11 from CPE to master or extension socket.   There was an RJ11 on the other end of the lead, so that a damaged lead could be unlatched and replaced etc.

“431A” is the 4 pin version, of which pins 2 & 5 are the loop and I think bell wire is pin 4 (there’s a 470K OOS “Opt Out Of Service” resistor + a 2.2uF cap in series across the loop in the standard NTE5 master socket. The R/C pair tells the exchange when there’s no CPE connected, and the cap is to pass the 70-90 ish V/AC @ 17hz current to the bell)

The 2,4 & 5 pins were paralleled up to extension sockets via a detachable faceplate, moulded into which was a (“431A”? Not sure if “631A” maybe?) plug which mated directly into a matching socket on the fixed part of the NTE5. The faceplate carried Krone punch down terminals to which you’d punch down the solid core extension wiring. I spent far too much time “playing” with BT systems (phreaking) as a teenager, hacking Dad’s phone locks (the stupid dial padlock type and another better one stocked by RS which went between the socket and the phone, and was programmable.)

visited my villages Strowger exchange as a teenager, and later when they upgraded it to Ericsson “System Y”, I was allowed to take what I wanted from the skip full of scrap outside. I wish I’d kept some of the selectors - I had a GPO ringing machine too!

I think “631A” may have been for Telex etc. I don’t recall.

[IanB]

The BT standard phone plugs are of type “431A” and less commonly “631A”, and never RJ11 from CPE to master or extension socket.   There was an RJ11 on the other end of the lead, so that a damaged lead could be unlatched and replaced etc.

“431A” is the 4 pin version, of which pins 2 & 5 are the loop and I think bell wire is pin 4 (there’s a 470K OOS “Opt Out Of Service” resistor + a 2.2uF cap in series across the loop; the R/C pair tells the exchange when there’s no CPE connected, and the cap is to pass the 70-90 ish V/AC @ 17hz current to the bell)

I think “631A” may have been for Telex etc. I don’t recall.

Yes, you're right, I had forgotten that. It's been a while since I've looked at one. They are of course much bigger than an RJ11 and a different shape.

[eti]

BT are bumbling fools always were.

You can't say that.  Maybe you are too young to know, but BT created the really nice, Buzby's adverts.  How can you dislike a company which brings the Buzby's into existence?

I can and did say it. I’m in my late 40s so yeah I remember those ads (just).  BT wasted a lot of time and resources. I knew a few people who worked for them, and would often call a senior engineer (I’d never met him) and quiz him about the finer technicalities of the phone network. They’re a dopey company who waste money and rip people off. Back before the internet and before LLU was a thing, they were a monopoly and a fat, lazy one.

[MK14]

I can and did say it. I’m in my late 40s so yeah I remember those ads (just).  BT wasted a lot of time and resources. I knew a few people who worked for them, and would often call a senior engineer (I’d never met him) and quiz him about the finer technicalities of the phone network. They’re a dopey company who waste money and rip people off. Back before the internet and before LLU was a thing, they were a monopoly and a fat, lazy one.

I was somewhat jesting, but the Buzby cartoon characters, were fun.

The politics, of very big companies/organisations such as BT, can get quite tricky.  Opinions, as to the best solutions, can vary a lot, e.g. along political lines, such as Nationalise vs Privatise vs Split into smaller companies/organisations vs other solutions.

According to public opinions (user reports), when I looked, a number of years ago.  BT doesn't do too well, in the customer satisfaction department, for their broadband services.

Even if a person goes back in a time-machine, and at the time and date they go back, they are given full authority, to decide how BT and the UKs phone/internet infrastructure, is to be done.  The best course of action(s), are not necessarily obvious.  Some people may think (opinions), that they could do a marvelous job of restructuring the situation.

But I suspect, in practice.  It is a massive minefield of a task, to handle such a complicated task.  Various technologies available at different price points, depending on the year.  Huge amounts of per-existing infrastructure.  A massive customer base, who will potentially complain, if at any time during the upgrade processes, things don't go to plan.

Then there also is money availability, and what actions or not, the various competitors do or don't do.

On top of that, BT have to cope with various changes of Government / Prime ministers, who may change the rules, regulations, laws, money allocations, and even the requirements, at the drop of a hat.

I bet in practice, it is a very difficult job, running BT, and if you don't get it quite right, the man at the top, could get replaced (sacked) by the board of directors (or government, if nationalised), or shareholders.

It is just so easy to sit on a couch, and criticise various big entities, without really understanding all the intricacies going on.

[PlainName]

According to public opinions (user reports), when I looked, a number of years ago.  BT doesn't do too well, in the customer satisfaction department, for their broadband services.

BT aren't one company now. There is BT Broadband who basically do the backbone stuff (rather like British Rail look after the tracks and infrastructure on the railways). They are pretty decent and do the job. Then there is BT Retail who sell broadband and the like to consumers. These are the ones that are pillocks and worth keeping well away from. The railway equivalent would be the train operators like Avanti.

[unknownparticle]

Anyone remember the "TrimPhone", a sleeker and more compact alternative to the big, clunky, traditional phone that was previously all you could get?

Yup, I have several, all of which still work!!  In fact one of them is my daily driver at the mo!!  It's quite funny to see the faces on people if they hear it 'ring', or rather chirp!!  Mine are the push button dial type, so quite 'modern' really!  Strange thing is, I hated them when they were introduced, but am very fond of them now!!  Also, we, as a family, had one of the first push button dial phones, ie, the otherwise standard looking phone but with a push button dial unit instead of a dial.  It was a big deal when introduced and had to be installed with a training session by the engineer when delivered!!  The electronics were quite interesting, including a rechargeable NiCad battery to power them!  The battery charged from the phone line and the circuitry was powered by the battery.  Phone still had a bell though, powered by the line!  Still have that very phone, I 'adopted' it when we moved!!

[PlainName]

had to be installed with a training session by the engineer when delivered!!

Quite a step down from that to being lucky to have a single A7 sheet of 2 point Chinglish nowadays.

[steve30]

At the moment you can have a copper POTS line and a fibre FTTP line simultaneously, but you'd have to pay for both, which would work out expensive. The POTS is going to be discontinued from 2025, so while you will still (to an extent) be able to get ADSL/VDSL over copper after that, there will be no analogue telephone service on the copper wire.

My recommendation is to get VoIP. I pay £1.20/month for a number and a couple of pence per minute with Andrews & Arnold. This will work from any internet connection, but if you have fibre (FTTP), there should be no packet loss and negligible latency, which is ideal for VoIP. If you use a proper VoIP provider (like A&A), you can use whatever equipment you choose. This could be a dedicated VoIP phone, or it could be an analogue telephone adaptor. Personally, I have both; a Snom 720 is my main phone, and a GPO 746 is hooked up to a Grandstream ATA. Grandstream ATAs support pulse dialling and are capable of ringing the bells.

If you have "extension wiring" in your house and wish to use this with your telephones, you can simply disconnect your wiring from the old BT line, and hook it up to your ATA: https://support.aa.net.uk/VoIP_How_to:_Voice_reinjection

The other option is "BT Digital Voice" which most BT resellers offer as a POTS replacement. This is a walled garden VoIP service where the ISP will provide you with a Modem-Router-AP-ATA combi unit, and you plug your analogue phone into the back of the router. This however seems quite expensive compared to standard VoIP providers like A&A and Sipgate etc. I have never used this personally so can't comment on it.

I hope that might be helpful.

[coppice]

If UK government had invested as heavily in communications as they have in useless and pointless green energy policy, the whole country could have had comms technology that would have actually been beneficial

Uk could have had fibre to every home back in the 80's,but instead bt  was sold off and the funds allocated  for fibre were fudged through creative accounting to  make the books look good.yet another one of thatchers legacys.

Er, no. At the end of the 80s I was at STC/Nortel. Colleagues were working on early passive optical networking ideas, but it really wasn't ready for market. By the mid 90s the details were in better shape, and some deployments could probably have got off the ground then. There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale. In those days it was considered vital to have power for the phone in an emergency. Things like company PBXs were generally required to have at least 8 hours battery backup. Maintaining such backup in every home would have been a serious problem, as batteries aged. A lot of the design of BRI ISDN in the 80s had been focussed on this issue, only relying on the integrity of the phone line to be able to power the customer premises equipment. Nobody had a real power solution for passive optical networks. Ubiquitous cell phones now side step this issue.

[themadhippy]

There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale

strange, the head of bt engineering is on record saying

"In 1986, I managed to get fibre to the home cheaper than copper and we started a programme where we built factories for manufacturing the system. By 1990, we had two factories, one in Ipswich and one in Birmingham, where were manufacturing components for systems to roll out to the local loop".

As an aside was that the houses of the future or some such nonsense in ,i think ,heelands

[coppice]

There was a fibre to the home demo system in the 80s in Milton Keynes, but at a high cost per house that would not scale

strange, the head of bt engineering is on record saying

"In 1986, I managed to get fibre to the home cheaper than copper and we started a programme where we built factories for manufacturing the system. By 1990, we had two factories, one in Ipswich and one in Birmingham, where were manufacturing components for systems to roll out to the local loop".

As an aside was that the houses of the future or some such nonsense in ,i think ,heelands

In 1986 we were developing the first generation of ISDN mux for BT, to be able to put a box in a street cabinet with a PRI ISDN fibre to the exchange, and copper to the surrounding houses carrying BRI ISDN. It was held back because it was really expensive compared to the conventional phone lines of the time. What you have read sounds very 1980s Tomorrow's World, where everything is so much better than reality.

Here's an example of BT's lack of realism in the 1980s. The subscriber line chip we developed for that mux had to echo cancel the BRI line. This was an expensive thing to do with 1980s technology, especially if you wanted to cancel a really long echo. BT demanded we cancel well enough for really long lines. We said that would be expensive. They said no problem. We built it, and it worked. They complained about the price.

[vad]

The last time I had landline was in Australia 9 years ago. We do not have landline in our house in Boston. There is 1 Gbps fiber (Verizon Fios) and the area has good 5G mobile coverage.

I did not miss landline for a moment.

[unknownparticle]

There is some bl00dy interesting stuff here, glad I started this topic!!
Update on my fault, it is now fully resolved, after THREE engineer visits!!!  None of the issues were in my property, all line and junction issues.
I now have the quietest line I've ever had and the BB connection speed has improved!!  So there must have been some longstanding neglected problems going on.  It was amusing watching the engineers from my CCTV cam on my phone!!  There were 3 Open Reach vans at one point!!

[rstofer]

The last time I had landline was in Australia 9 years ago. We do not have landline in our house in Boston. There is 1 Gbps fiber (Verizon Fios) and the area has good 5G mobile coverage.

I did not miss landline for a moment.

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

[IanB]

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

The FCC has rules that require this also to be the case with a digital (VoIP) line that you might have from a cable provider or ISP. The remaining detail is one of power outages, when you need to include the battery backup option for the modem/router if you want to ensure continuity of service.

https://www.fcc.gov/consumers/guides/voip-and-911-service

[rstofer]

In one case, the landline, the Telco maintains the power supply.  I live outside of town with overhead distribution so I wouldn't give 10 cents for a bet on continuity of electricity.  There are just too many power poles attacking cars. Turns out, the closest open WiFi is on the same pole with our electricity (and telco). 

Our internet, on bad days, bounces up and down like a yo-yo.  Our cell service is so bad that our provider gave us a microtower to run over the yo-yo internet.  The other provider (company cell phone) doesn't have a tower anywhere near.  That cellphone hardly ever works.

By far, the most reliable service is the plain old-fashioned landline with power provided by the Telco.

[vad]

It is my belief that if you have a medical emergency at home, you are better served with a landline where the carrier can transmit the EXACT address to 911 along with your call.  Even if we are totally incapacitated after dialing.

We keep our landline for exactly this purpose.  It's a choice...

iPhone and Apple Watch does share GPS location with emergency services when you call them with Emergency SOS, according to Apple.

Also, I am paying Massachusetts 911 $1.50 service charge every month for each of 5 wireless lines in our household. And the charge would be the same for a landline, if we had one. So I expect same level of service.

[IanB]

Our internet, on bad days, bounces up and down like a yo-yo.  Our cell service is so bad that our provider gave us a microtower to run over the yo-yo internet.  The other provider (company cell phone) doesn't have a tower anywhere near.  That cellphone hardly ever works.

The joys of living in a third world country