Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25230 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #100 on: November 04, 2022, 12:42:28 am »
LED is hands down superior to CFL, no argument there, but CFL was not THAT bad, the better ones worked pretty well. There definitely was a tradeoff between cost, starting speed and lifespan. People like instant on, but striking a fluorescent lamp without first preheating the cathodes is very hard on them so instant start lamps fail a lot faster, they're really only intended for applications where they are started once per day. Put one in a bathroom or something and they will fail quickly. Amalgam lamps are better able to tolerate high temperatures so most enclosed globe style, super compact and high output CFLs used that rather than elemental mercury, but amalgam types take a lot longer to reach full brightness.
 
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #101 on: November 04, 2022, 01:35:56 am »
Limiting a kettle to 500W would be pointless as it's not the power that matter but the energy.  To boil a liter of water might require about 330KJ and it will make only a little difference if the kettle operated at 500W versus 2000W.  Actually, the 2000W kettle might consume a bit less energy as there would be less time for the kettle to lose energy through radiation or convection.

An 8K TV/monitor will tend to consume more power at a given size and brightness as it will have 4X as many transistors switching as a 4K TV/monitor does.  But, an 8K TV of, say, 25 inches diagonal will not likely consume as much power as a 4K TV that's 55 inches when operating at the same brightness.

Putting a limit on power consumption now when very few people have 8K will give the makers time to improve the technology.  Given the energy issues the world is facing right now with the insane war Russia is waging in Ukraine it is not unreasonable to impose restrictions to limit the blackouts and brownouts that are almost certain to be with us this winter.  During WWII rationing was a thing and although many hated it they sucked it up because they cared more about their neighbors than is common these days.  We have evolved into a bunch of whining toddlers stomping are feet and pouting!


Brian
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #102 on: November 04, 2022, 01:47:35 am »
Limiting a kettle to 500W would be pointless as it's not the power that matter but the energy.  To boil a liter of water might require about 330KJ and it will make only a little difference if the kettle operated at 500W versus 2000W.  Actually, the 2000W kettle might consume a bit less energy as there would be less time for the kettle to lose energy through radiation or convection.

It was only an example to illustrate a point I think. Also since when has something being pointless stopped a politician from trying to legislate it?
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #103 on: November 04, 2022, 09:18:25 am »
It was only an example to illustrate a point I think. Also since when has something being pointless stopped a politician from trying to legislate it?

Politicians can promote anything they like, that's politics.  But the EU is a technocratic organisation.  Things are debated amongst industry professionals for years before even a draft piece of legislation would be written.  No doubt the 500W kettle limit will never happen.  If anything, the EU might mandate a 3kW kettle as standard, because it will likely be more efficient than a 2kW model.
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #104 on: November 04, 2022, 10:17:54 am »
I never liked Jobs while he was alive, but after he died I noticed a rapid drop in the quality and polish of Apple products. There is no way in hell he would have let iOS7 go out in the state it was, or the notches in the displays of iphones and now macbooks.
Walter Isaacson, who wrote Steve Job's biography book, told about an episode at the hospital where Jobs was having his surgery, when Jobs did not like the oxygen mask he mentored the personnel how to improve the mask design.  8)

Nice story, but the people using it are not the ones with the say in changing it.
Besides, things that looked like improvements to him might compromise other parts of the design.
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #105 on: November 04, 2022, 10:44:13 am »

Don't bother replying to this kind of argument. It always the same, uninformed that we have addressed a few times but it still doesn't sink in.
There was a recent thread about hearing as well in a simiilar vein.

To begin with, any such statement should come with a definite and clear statement about "what the eye can use". Let's start the fun. It's much more complex than it appears. It would basically require books of thousands of pages and years of study. For the amount of stuff that is currently known. Which is not even the end of the story.

Anyone non visually impaired has no trouble seeing the difference between FHD and 4K even on a relatively small screen. No doubt the difference between 4K and 8K on a larger screen will be very apparent.

I am absolutely all, 100% for using proper science and debunking bullshit, but when poor science is used as a pretext to pass as smart when you know jack shit, well, nope. :popcorn:

Thanks for the sneer, but some of us were exposed, even if secondhand, to the conclusions of the original research current at the time we learnt about associated things.

The decisions on TV standards by the relevant authorities were all informed by those studies, which gave us mortals some "rules of thumb" for what sort of resolution is adequate.

Indeed, later research may well have proven those conclusions, & my comments, to be wrong, but isn't the onus on you to give some examples of how "much more complex" it is.

"Because you say so" just doesn't hack it!

Jackshit my backside!
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #106 on: November 04, 2022, 11:14:07 am »
It was only an example to illustrate a point I think. Also since when has something being pointless stopped a politician from trying to legislate it?

Politicians can promote anything they like, that's politics.  But the EU is a technocratic organisation.  Things are debated amongst industry professionals for years before even a draft piece of legislation would be written.  No doubt the 500W kettle limit will never happen.  If anything, the EU might mandate a 3kW kettle as standard, because it will likely be more efficient than a 2kW model.

There are other concerns than power rating & efficiency:-

Using the standard 230v RMS EU voltage standard, for a 500w kettle ,I=2.17A (approx), a 2kW kettle, I= 8.7A(approx), whereas for a 3kW kettle, I=13A(approx)---spot on the UK 13A plug fuse rating!

For the NA 120v voltage standard the figures are : 500w unit I=4.17A (approx), 2kW, I=16.7A (approx), & for 3kW, I=25A(exactly)!
 

Offline JohanH

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #107 on: November 04, 2022, 11:34:20 am »
In many EU countries 10A fuse and wiring might be used (even though socket itself is rated 16A), so I guess larger than 2.3 kW isn't going to be standardized (if it were).
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #108 on: November 04, 2022, 02:31:37 pm »
My experience with CFL bulbs is that the more expensive, long life ones have a long lifespan but they tend to startup slow. The cheaper ones crap out quickly. I have replaced the CFL tube armatures I have with HF drivers. HF drivers make the tubes last almost forever. Though I have not found LED panels that have >90% CRI like the CFL tubes I have in my lab and workspace so I'll stick to CFL in there.
The range of both CFL and LED performance is huge. However, I have still to see a LED bulb that can match a 1990s National/Panasonic CFL. Those things went on for years and years, with good efficiency, and pleasant illumination. Their only downside was their slow start, and the classic negative for any fluorescent lamp - don't use them in places where they have many short runs, like domestic bathrooms.
 

Offline unknownparticleTopic starter

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #109 on: November 04, 2022, 03:08:20 pm »
LED lighting is still far from perfect, even ideal.  The main enemy of any LED lamp is heat.  Enclose them and they die prematurely, sometimes very. Even semi enclosed is a problem, depending on the air flow, if airflow is restricted, like for example, an angle poise lamp, life is reduced. To achieve max life the lamp has to be in free air.
Most are not compatible with outdoor use, with some products even stating that on the packaging, I have proved this to be true, they die quite quickly. 
Quality is variable and difficult to judge from appearance. If you buy Philips or a similar quality brand, then OK. Buying cheapies is a lottery.
I've found Ikea, Aldi, Liddle etc, which are low price, to be surprisingly good. I've stripped a few failed ones down and these brands have good build quality.  The unknown one hung low brands vary from cr4p to as good as Ikea, Aldi & Liddle but you cannot know until tried.
And non, even Philips, get anywhere near the 10's of thousands of hours life claimed.
However, compared to incandescent and CFL, it's LED every time.
I visited a friend this summer, who I hadn't seen for many years. We were chatting in the evening and I'd noticed the multiple ceiling halogen down lighters in the kitchen and lounge, the conversation turned to energy costs and she was moaning about her bill. I asked her if the down lighters were still halogen, she replied she didn't know but they'd been in for over 20 years, so yes, they were.  I did a quick calc on the probable consumption and it was around 1 to 1.3 KW with them all on!!!  When I explained what that meant she said that they would be out the next week to be replaced with LED!!!  She hadn't even changed the table lamps and other lamps to LED, she thought it wasn't worth it!
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline Stray Electron

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #110 on: November 04, 2022, 03:16:08 pm »


There are other concerns than power rating & efficiency:-

Using the standard 230v RMS EU voltage standard, for a 500w kettle ,I=2.17A (approx), a 2kW kettle, I= 8.7A(approx), whereas for a 3kW kettle, I=13A(approx)---spot on the UK 13A plug fuse rating!

For the NA 120v voltage standard the figures are : 500w unit I=4.17A (approx), 2kW, I=16.7A (approx), & for 3kW, I=25A(exactly)!

  I don't know about the rest of the world but in the US normal AC outlets are usually rated for 15 amps however kitchen outlets are rated 20 amps (all at 120 VAC).  Does anyone else in the EU, UK, etc do that?

   FWIW with regard to the power available: electric kettles aren't that common here either. We just use a plain kettle on the stove top.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #111 on: November 04, 2022, 03:21:39 pm »
everyone switch to CFLs. 5 years later : ban cfls, they contain mercury.
try getting rid of them now. you can;t throw them in the trash , nor in the recycle bin. you have to give them with the dangerous goods.
Professional Electron Wrangler.
Any comments, or points of view expressed, are my own and not endorsed , induced or compensated by my employer(s).
 

Offline Monkeh

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #112 on: November 04, 2022, 04:01:23 pm »


There are other concerns than power rating & efficiency:-

Using the standard 230v RMS EU voltage standard, for a 500w kettle ,I=2.17A (approx), a 2kW kettle, I= 8.7A(approx), whereas for a 3kW kettle, I=13A(approx)---spot on the UK 13A plug fuse rating!

For the NA 120v voltage standard the figures are : 500w unit I=4.17A (approx), 2kW, I=16.7A (approx), & for 3kW, I=25A(exactly)!

  I don't know about the rest of the world but in the US normal AC outlets are usually rated for 15 amps however kitchen outlets are rated 20 amps (all at 120 VAC).  Does anyone else in the EU, UK, etc do that?

   FWIW with regard to the power available: electric kettles aren't that common here either. We just use a plain kettle on the stove top.

No, there's basically no need, because we deliver practical amounts of power at 10A or so. Electric kettles are significantly more efficient than stoves.
 

Offline unknownparticleTopic starter

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #113 on: November 04, 2022, 04:19:03 pm »
The UK has a ring main system, with an MCB rated at 32 amps, but the individual socket outlets are rated at 13 amp with all the plugs 13 amp fused.  On the average 3 bed house, which is much smaller than the average US property, there will be a ring main for each floor, as most houses are 2 story.  Bare in mind though, our mains voltage is 240V so a 13 amp socket will support 3.1 KW. Our kettles are generally rated at between 2-3KW and you'll struggle to find a home or business without one!!  Actually, it's a major problem for our power grid, because the nation tends to watch sh1t soap's like sheep, in their millions and when an ad break comes on, everyone puts the kettle on for a coffee or cup of tea, this results in a huge load spike for the grid, so they have to watch the TV schedules and plan accordingly!!  That must now be less of a thing or becoming so though, as a result of catch up TV options.
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #114 on: November 04, 2022, 04:42:26 pm »
The range of both CFL and LED performance is huge. However, I have still to see a LED bulb that can match a 1990s National/Panasonic CFL. Those things went on for years and years, with good efficiency, and pleasant illumination. Their only downside was their slow start, and the classic negative for any fluorescent lamp - don't use them in places where they have many short runs, like domestic bathrooms.

Really? I have some nigh-on 7 year old Costco LED bulbs that were about £8 for 3 x 7W LED - warm white, instant start, and by my estimation about as bright as they left the factory.  CRI is >80, which is better than most CFLs.  They have probably done 15,000 hours already.   CFLs can't beat modern LEDs.
 

Offline AndyBeez

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #115 on: November 04, 2022, 05:09:46 pm »
everyone switch to CFLs. 5 years later : ban cfls, they contain mercury.
try getting rid of them now. you can;t throw them in the trash , nor in the recycle bin. you have to give them with the dangerous goods.
Same here in sunny (?) England.

A decade ago, our energy suppliers were giving these away for free to help save the planet from the evil that is, tungsten filaments. Even the European Union was in on the act, fronting these bulbs as eco-friendly. We all had them as they were not just energy saving, but planet saving too - and free.

However, the free CFL bulbs were made in china shite that barely lasted twice as long as a filament bulb. Ever had any 'eco bulb' last the 100,000 hours claimed on the carton? Some, not even last 1,000 hours. My Philips bulbs faired better but, for the price of one, I could have bought a crate of tungsten bulbs. But being free, they were a throw away item!

Then we (the people) discovered CFL bulbs were SO dangerous to the environment, our local town council provided special sealable bags to dispose of them in. Just one broken bulb was enough to close down our public library; their hazmat bulbs were replaced with florescent strip lights :palm:

A traditional lightbulb contains mostly glass, tungsten, tin and a bit of leaded solder. A CFL contains almost as much e-waste as LED lightbulbs. And that's A LOT of good parts down in the dumpster.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #116 on: November 04, 2022, 05:18:32 pm »
everyone switch to CFLs. 5 years later : ban cfls, they contain mercury.
try getting rid of them now. you can;t throw them in the trash , nor in the recycle bin. you have to give them with the dangerous goods.
Its the same pattern with many things. CO2 is bad? Let's go for diesel cars. Oh no, NO2 is bad, lets punish all those diesel car owners who bought to be environmentally friendly. Who gives a damn this week about CO2? That's so last week..... and next week. Its just not this week.
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #117 on: November 04, 2022, 05:22:23 pm »
Diesel cars were always promoted as 'less bad', despite what VW wanted you to think.  The government incentivised them with good tax rates because EVs weren't available at the time and now we've discovered that was probably a bad idea due to NOx, but it was the best of a set of not great options.

Lightbulb emissions are almost entirely due to energy usage.  An LED bulb repays its extra emissions within about 1,000 hours of operation.  Sure some CFLs were shite but others last 10+ years,  I've still got one in the loft which must be nearly 15 years old... I've been meaning to replace it but why bother when it still works?
 
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Offline AndyBeez

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #118 on: November 04, 2022, 05:53:31 pm »
The premise for banning tungsten and halogen bulbs is they use MORE energy and therefore produce MORE carbon dioxide. And as we all know, if there was LESS carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, our great leaders would have no reason to burn bullshit in a carbon neutral way at the COP Conference cash cow.

To borrow a phrase from eco jedi Al Gore, the inconvenience truth about my carbon dioxide production is this: My lightbulbs produce zero carbon because, having nuclear, wind and solar generation in my region, there is no carbon produced. Other UK regions have abundant hydro-electric. Another truth, despite it's "dirty man of europe" reputation, the UK is spiralling towards a carbon negative future.

So a big yes to energy efficient lighting. Go physics, go EEs! But a big no to foundless reasoning from a political class who greenwash their dirty hands with tax payers money. Every year.
 
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Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #119 on: November 04, 2022, 06:00:08 pm »
To borrow a phrase from eco jedi Al Gore, the inconvenience truth about my carbon dioxide production is this: My lightbulbs produce zero carbon because, having nuclear, wind and solar generation in my region, there is no carbon produced. Other UK regions have abundant hydro-electric. Another truth, despite it's "dirty man of europe" reputation, the UK is spiralling towards a carbon negative future.

The UK grid has a carbon intensity of about 200gCO2/kWh, no matter who you buy your electricity from.  So a 100W tungsten bulb produces about 20g per hour of operation, but a 10W LED bulb is around 2g.  A pretty good way to look at the emissions profile of a lightbulb is to consider the maximum amount of energy that could have been expended to make it.  If it retails for £5, say, then it probably cost £2.50 to make.  If natural gas is about £50 per MWh (Asian spot price), then it couldn't have used more than 50kWh to produce or around 12.5kg of CO2.  So your payback period is (12500g / 18g = 694 hours) which is pretty damn short.  And that's an upper estimate based on normal energy consumption,  it doesn't consider e-waste but that's very hard to price in.  If you buy a LED bulb that lasts 15k hours it has definitely a positive impact on your emissions.

COP isn't a cash cow.  Countries are desperate to get out of their commitments because going net zero will be almost impossible without massive economic costs, but no one seems brave enough to admit this yet.  We're probably a bit fucked when it comes to climate change, and we need to be rapidly thinking about how to mitigate the worst outcomes rather than pretending 1.5C is achievable now.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #120 on: November 04, 2022, 06:13:32 pm »
Diesel cars were always promoted as 'less bad', despite what VW wanted you to think.
In engineering there are no solutions, despite what the marketing people say. There are only compromises. Too many people with power are utopian, and fail to understand that. So, we get an endless stream of destructive decisions. Electric cars are only "less bad", not perfect. On a really good day windmills and solar panels are "less bad" , and a very very long way from perfect.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #121 on: November 04, 2022, 08:11:00 pm »
Politicians can promote anything they like, that's politics.  But the EU is a technocratic organisation.  Things are debated amongst industry professionals for years before even a draft piece of legislation would be written.  No doubt the 500W kettle limit will never happen.  If anything, the EU might mandate a 3kW kettle as standard, because it will likely be more efficient than a 2kW model.

Is that how we ended up with those idiotic cookie notifications that pop up constantly all over the internet? I know it was well intended, but the way it panned out was a complete fail.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #122 on: November 04, 2022, 08:14:10 pm »
COP isn't a cash cow.  Countries are desperate to get out of their commitments because going net zero will be almost impossible without massive economic costs, but no one seems brave enough to admit this yet.  We're probably a bit fucked when it comes to climate change, and we need to be rapidly thinking about how to mitigate the worst outcomes rather than pretending 1.5C is achievable now.

That's something I've thought about for a while. Even the most optimistic moon shot climate action proposed predicts results that are still pretty dire as I recall. If we were going to prevent human caused climate change, the window of opportunity for that was decades if not a century ago. As of now we have already passed the point of no return so we may be better off finding ways to mitigate the effects rather than trying to prevent it.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #123 on: November 04, 2022, 08:16:41 pm »
Politicians can promote anything they like, that's politics.  But the EU is a technocratic organisation.  Things are debated amongst industry professionals for years before even a draft piece of legislation would be written.
You make that sound like a good thing. However little power it gives us, we can vote out a politician. The technocrats can only removed through serious violence.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #124 on: November 04, 2022, 08:18:33 pm »
everyone switch to CFLs. 5 years later : ban cfls, they contain mercury.
try getting rid of them now. you can;t throw them in the trash , nor in the recycle bin. you have to give them with the dangerous goods.
Same here in sunny (?) England.

A decade ago, our energy suppliers were giving these away for free to help save the planet from the evil that is, tungsten filaments. Even the European Union was in on the act, fronting these bulbs as eco-friendly. We all had them as they were not just energy saving, but planet saving too - and free.

However, the free CFL bulbs were made in china shite that barely lasted twice as long as a filament bulb. Ever had any 'eco bulb' last the 100,000 hours claimed on the carton? Some, not even last 1,000 hours. My Philips bulbs faired better but, for the price of one, I could have bought a crate of tungsten bulbs. But being free, they were a throw away item!

Then we (the people) discovered CFL bulbs were SO dangerous to the environment, our local town council provided special sealable bags to dispose of them in. Just one broken bulb was enough to close down our public library; their hazmat bulbs were replaced with florescent strip lights :palm:

A traditional lightbulb contains mostly glass, tungsten, tin and a bit of leaded solder. A CFL contains almost as much e-waste as LED lightbulbs. And that's A LOT of good parts down in the dumpster.

Burning coal to power an incandescent lamp releases more mercury into the environment than throwing away a CFL. Maybe it's different there but here they are easily disposed of, there are bins at most hardware stores, although most people just throw them in the trash. Closing the library and sending in a hazmat team is absurd overkill for the tiny amount of mercury that is present, in most bulbs it's not even liquid mercury, it's an amalgam similar to what used to be used in dental fillings.

I never saw one that was claimed to last 100,000 hours. The best ones were typically rated for 8,000, cheaper ones 6,000. I had some early failures but I also had many that lasted longer than the rated life, largely that came down to how rarely they were started. Lights that came on once in the evening and shut off later lasted much longer than those that were switched off and on often.
 
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