Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25220 times)

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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #125 on: November 04, 2022, 08:22:35 pm »
everyone switch to CFLs. 5 years later : ban cfls, they contain mercury.
try getting rid of them now. you can;t throw them in the trash , nor in the recycle bin. you have to give them with the dangerous goods.
Its the same pattern with many things. CO2 is bad? Let's go for diesel cars. Oh no, NO2 is bad, lets punish all those diesel car owners who bought to be environmentally friendly. Who gives a damn this week about CO2? That's so last week..... and next week. Its just not this week.

It's worse with refrigerants. Ammonia was toxic and smelly so they switched to R12. R12 was wrecking the ozone so they banned it and switched to R22 and R134. R22 has some ozone depletion potential (5% of $12) so they phased that out and switched to R410. R410 and R134 are greenhouse gasses so they're working on phasing those out. Each time of course requires new equipment and new tools to work with the stuff. IMHO we should have stuck with R22 and R134 and just focused on capturing and recycling it to avoid letting it out into the atmosphere.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #126 on: November 04, 2022, 08:24:31 pm »
The decisions on TV standards by the relevant authorities were all informed by those studies, which gave us mortals some "rules of thumb" for what sort of resolution is adequate.

Indeed, later research may well have proven those conclusions, & my comments, to be wrong, but isn't the onus on you to give some examples of how "much more complex" it is.

"Because you say so" just doesn't hack it!

How about "because I can see the pixels with my own eyes"? Does that count? I tend to believe something when I can see it myself.
 

Online Nominal Animal

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #127 on: November 04, 2022, 08:25:50 pm »
Politicians can promote anything they like, that's politics.  But the EU is a technocratic organisation.  Things are debated amongst industry professionals for years before even a draft piece of legislation would be written.
You make that sound like a good thing. However little power it gives us, we can vote out a politician. The technocrats can only removed through serious violence.
Well, we do not get to vote for the EU president or for the EU comission, actually.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #128 on: November 04, 2022, 08:29:21 pm »
I never saw one[CFL]  that was claimed to last 100,000 hours. The best ones were typically rated for 8,000, cheaper ones 6,000. I had some early failures but I also had many that lasted longer than the rated life, largely that came down to how rarely they were started. Lights that came on once in the evening and shut off later lasted much longer than those that were switched off and on often.
I've seen National CFLs run for 10 years in stair wells, where they were never turned off. I think they were only rated for 8000 to 10000 hours, but could massively exceed that. Most of the complaints about the short life of CFLs  are due to many warm up cycles (e.g. bathroom use) or use in an enclosed luminaire. Most CFLs are marked as unsuitable for use in enclosed fittings, but people ignore that. They blacken even faster when they can't dissipate their heat well, than when they are turned on and off a lot.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #129 on: November 04, 2022, 08:33:43 pm »
I've seen National CFLs run for 10 years in stair wells, where they were never turned off. I think they were only rated for 8000 to 10000 hours, but could massively exceed that. Most of the complaints about the short life of CFLs  are due to many warm up cycles (e.g. bathroom use) or use in an enclosed luminaire. Most CFLs are marked as unsuitable for use in enclosed fittings, but people ignore that. They blacken even faster when they can't dissipate their heat well, than when they are turned on and off a lot.

I think I once got around 12k hours out of one that was rated for 8,000, it was in a light on my desk at work that was left on all the time. It's not too hard to make one that will keep going longer than that, but the phosphor is going to get pretty tired at some point. L70 is considered EOL. 
 

Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #130 on: November 04, 2022, 09:46:35 pm »
Quote
Burning coal to power an incandescent lamp releases more mercury into the environment than throwing away a CFL.

Are CFLs powered by some magic non-coal derived source, then? To put it another way, burning coal to power a CFL surely releases slightly less mercury from the power but an additional dump from the CFL at EOL (which, typically, would be sooner than the incandescent lamp).
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #131 on: November 04, 2022, 09:52:33 pm »
Quote
Burning coal to power an incandescent lamp releases more mercury into the environment than throwing away a CFL.

Are CFLs powered by some magic non-coal derived source, then? To put it another way, burning coal to power a CFL surely releases slightly less mercury from the power but an additional dump from the CFL at EOL (which, typically, would be sooner than the incandescent lamp).
It takes far less coal to power a CFL, so its still a lower polluter.
 
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Offline Bud

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #132 on: November 04, 2022, 10:03:25 pm »
I never saw one[CFL]  that was claimed to last 100,000 hours. The best ones were typically rated for 8,000, cheaper ones 6,000. I had some early failures but I also had many that lasted longer than the rated life, largely that came down to how rarely they were started. Lights that came on once in the evening and shut off later lasted much longer than those that were switched off and on often.
I've seen National CFLs run for 10 years in stair wells, where they were never turned off. I think they were only rated for 8000 to 10000 hours, but could massively exceed that. Most of the complaints about the short life of CFLs  are due to many warm up cycles (e.g. bathroom use) or use in an enclosed luminaire. Most CFLs are marked as unsuitable for use in enclosed fittings, but people ignore that. They blacken even faster when they can't dissipate their heat well, than when they are turned on and off a lot.
Funny enough, I used a few spare CFLs in my fridge. They only lasted 2 weeks each. Surely there is plenty of cold air in the fridge, so they did not die because of overheating. I still do not know why they died that fast.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline Ranayna

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #133 on: November 04, 2022, 10:17:51 pm »
I would guess dampness or maybe cracking due to temperature difference?
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #134 on: November 04, 2022, 10:29:30 pm »
That's something I've thought about for a while. Even the most optimistic moon shot climate action proposed predicts results that are still pretty dire as I recall. If we were going to prevent human caused climate change, the window of opportunity for that was decades if not a century ago. As of now we have already passed the point of no return so we may be better off finding ways to mitigate the effects rather than trying to prevent it.

Unfortunately, a bit of both.  We need to drastically cut CO2 emissions, but also work to mitigate the worst effects.  That means building flood defences, security for energy grids against extreme temperatures (no Texas again, please), insulating existing homes, building *new* homes to be zero carbon,  look at genome engineering or at least crop selection to be more rugged to extreme heat/longer droughts -- all of that stuff.

There's no scenario in which we don't reduce emissions and only mitigate the badness and survive the long term in any reasonable manner.  It'd be a bit like the lung cancer patient smoking 40-a-day after their tumour was excised. 
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #135 on: November 05, 2022, 07:27:57 am »
Quote
Burning coal to power an incandescent lamp releases more mercury into the environment than throwing away a CFL.

Are CFLs powered by some magic non-coal derived source, then? To put it another way, burning coal to power a CFL surely releases slightly less mercury from the power but an additional dump from the CFL at EOL (which, typically, would be sooner than the incandescent lamp).

No of course not, but they consume roughly 1/6 as much energy so you still come out ahead. As I've said earlier, I typically got much longer lifespan from my CFLs than from the incandescent lamps they replaced.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #136 on: November 05, 2022, 07:31:04 am »
Funny enough, I used a few spare CFLs in my fridge. They only lasted 2 weeks each. Surely there is plenty of cold air in the fridge, so they did not die because of overheating. I still do not know why they died that fast.

Rapid cycling, and probably the low temperature too. Lower is not better, fluorescent lamps have a specific temperature range over which they are designed to operate which corresponds to the vapor pressure of the mercury inside them. Cold weather operation can be challenging, fluorescent tubes meant for cold weather ran at higher current and you could get special low temperature ballasts, mostly used in signs. Even then when it got *really* cold out, fluorescent signs would be very dim.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #137 on: November 05, 2022, 07:34:18 am »
Unfortunately, a bit of both.  We need to drastically cut CO2 emissions, but also work to mitigate the worst effects.  That means building flood defences, security for energy grids against extreme temperatures (no Texas again, please), insulating existing homes, building *new* homes to be zero carbon,  look at genome engineering or at least crop selection to be more rugged to extreme heat/longer droughts -- all of that stuff.

There's no scenario in which we don't reduce emissions and only mitigate the badness and survive the long term in any reasonable manner.  It'd be a bit like the lung cancer patient smoking 40-a-day after their tumour was excised.

Unfortunately I think that's totally impractical and wishful thinking. Even if you could build all new houses to be zero carbon and people could still afford them, there is still the inconvenient fact that a huge chunk of pollution comes from the third world and developing nations and they are many decades behind other regions. I was surprised to learn recently that as much kerosene is used for lighting still as is used in air transport. Kerosene lamps are still a daily use device in some parts of the world. There are vast areas that don't have electricity, let alone heat pumps.
 

Offline timenutgoblin

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #138 on: November 06, 2022, 10:37:44 am »
The real reason these TVs use so much power:
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #139 on: November 06, 2022, 11:50:14 am »
An 8K TV/monitor will tend to consume more power at a given size and brightness as it will have 4X as many transistors switching as a 4K TV/monitor does.  But, an 8K TV of, say, 25 inches diagonal will not likely consume as much power as a 4K TV that's 55 inches when operating at the same brightness.
Dead wrong...  The 4x transistor count to drive any LCD is the smallest amount of current used.  Active matrix LCDs consume close to no current.  LCD switching current is related to the total surface area of LCD fluid you are actively charging and discharging as the LCD fluid acts like a capacitor.  So the screen resolution does not affect the current draw.  Though, screen size and scan rate does.

All you had to do was watch my linked video here and you were told exactly why the 8k TV need so much more electrical power, 3x more power hungry placing it way above the European limit.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/the-eu-is-banning-8k-tvs!!!/msg4499227/#msg4499227

For those who don't believe me, seek to 4:10 in the attached video and the truth about the pixel aperture of the 4x higher density LDC which requires a back-light with 3x the brightness just to get a minimal acceptable brightness image completely blowing out the European power limit with no route to solving the problem with modern LCD technology.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 11:57:50 am by BrianHG »
 
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Online nctnico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #140 on: November 06, 2022, 08:21:20 pm »
Unfortunately, a bit of both.  We need to drastically cut CO2 emissions, but also work to mitigate the worst effects.  That means building flood defences, security for energy grids against extreme temperatures (no Texas again, please), insulating existing homes, building *new* homes to be zero carbon,  look at genome engineering or at least crop selection to be more rugged to extreme heat/longer droughts -- all of that stuff.

There's no scenario in which we don't reduce emissions and only mitigate the badness and survive the long term in any reasonable manner.  It'd be a bit like the lung cancer patient smoking 40-a-day after their tumour was excised.

Unfortunately I think that's totally impractical and wishful thinking. Even if you could build all new houses to be zero carbon and people could still afford them, there is still the inconvenient fact that a huge chunk of pollution comes from the third world and developing nations and they are many decades behind other regions. I was surprised to learn recently that as much kerosene is used for lighting still as is used in air transport. Kerosene lamps are still a daily use device in some parts of the world. There are vast areas that don't have electricity, let alone heat pumps.
Yes. If you compare China to the EU you'll see that China has tripled CO2 emissions between 1990 and 2020 while the EU has reduced the emissions by about 30% in the same period. The real challenge is going to make sure the upcoming countries are going to skip fossil fuels.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #141 on: November 06, 2022, 08:23:56 pm »
Yes. If you compare China to the EU you'll see that China has tripled CO2 emissions between 1990 and 2020 while the EU has reduced the emissions by about 30% in the same period. The real challenge is going to make sure the upcoming countries are going to skip fossil fuels.
Those two things are not unconnected. A lot of the reduction in Europe is simply heavy industry moving to China. Same CO2 emission, different place.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #142 on: November 06, 2022, 08:29:46 pm »
Yes. If you compare China to the EU you'll see that China has tripled CO2 emissions between 1990 and 2020 while the EU has reduced the emissions by about 30% in the same period. The real challenge is going to make sure the upcoming countries are going to skip fossil fuels.
Those two things are not unconnected. A lot of the reduction in Europe is simply heavy industry moving to China. Same CO2 emission, different place.

Yes, we've been shifting our pollution far away. Which makes it worse actually, since the way those countries produce energy is still a lot more polluting than the way we do. So for a given amount of required energy, by delocalizing production, we've been increasing worldwide pollution.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #143 on: November 06, 2022, 08:39:08 pm »
So the screen resolution does not affect the current draw.

Thanks for starting the thread.  It spurred me on, to read about these issues.

What you just said (I ONLY quoted the bit I mean), is both completely 100% right, and NOT, at the same time.  Let me explain.

Thought experiment, to explain.  As I understand it.  If you have a 4k panel, and measure the overall power draw.  Then, keeping the panel dimensions the same, magically change it to a (current technology) 8k TV panel.  Although you are perfectly CORRECT, the panel/backlight will continue to use the SAME power.
Unfortunately, you will notice (from my background reading), the display brightness, drastically (badly) drop in intensity.

So, in order to force the overall picture brightness, back up to what it was, with the original 4k TV panel.  It will be necessary to considerably increase the brightness of it.  Which will usually result in a significant increase in power consumption.

This is because the smaller pixels (8k rather than 4k ones, fitting in the same overall panel dimensions), will in effect, have much bigger borders (relatively speaking).
I.e. Although they can make the pixels ever smaller, the borders, between the pixels, sadly, remain the same size (as I understand it).  Probably due to technological limitations, at the moment.
So, proportionally, that forces (scientifically or mathematically speaking), the space for the smaller pixel to shine through, disproportionately smaller.

Or in other words.  The display brightness, for a given amount of power on a 4k panel, will dramatically fall (be much less efficient), as so much light is lost/wasted, by the borders between the pixels, which HAVE NOT become smaller, because of current technology limitations.

N.B. That was my understanding, by reading up on it.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #144 on: November 06, 2022, 08:48:39 pm »
Yes. If you compare China to the EU you'll see that China has tripled CO2 emissions between 1990 and 2020 while the EU has reduced the emissions by about 30% in the same period. The real challenge is going to make sure the upcoming countries are going to skip fossil fuels.
Those two things are not unconnected. A lot of the reduction in Europe is simply heavy industry moving to China. Same CO2 emission, different place.
I disagree. A) heavy industry moved to China / Asia during the 70's and 80's. B) If it is due to moving heavy industry, then China's CO2 emissions would have increased by only 30%. The latter isn't the case. What is the primary cause is the increased living standard in China.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 08:50:26 pm by nctnico »
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Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #145 on: November 06, 2022, 08:55:37 pm »
Shouldn't the screen resolution affect current? If you have more pixels then even if they use zero power to be static, they use power to change. Four times more changes surely means four times more power necessary to change them.

I realise that the power used to change a pixel is very different to the power needed to light those pixels up, but it's still more. Or do the pixels change for free?
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #146 on: November 06, 2022, 09:22:26 pm »
I realise that the power used to change a pixel is very different to the power needed to light those pixels up, but it's still more.
When the "more", including the power consumption of the processor needed to crunch all those numbers to convert a digital data stream into an image, is a few percent of the overall, and individual units' power consumption varies more than that because of environmental differences and possibly even differences in the main supply voltage, the "more" is just not significant enough to consider.

In essence, we're talking about approximated, noisy numbers across individual units and use cases here, so a few watts here or there is within the noise, insignificant.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #147 on: November 06, 2022, 09:28:11 pm »
Yes. If you compare China to the EU you'll see that China has tripled CO2 emissions between 1990 and 2020 while the EU has reduced the emissions by about 30% in the same period. The real challenge is going to make sure the upcoming countries are going to skip fossil fuels.
Those two things are not unconnected. A lot of the reduction in Europe is simply heavy industry moving to China. Same CO2 emission, different place.
I disagree. A) heavy industry moved to China / Asia during the 70's and 80's. B) If it is due to moving heavy industry, then China's CO2 emissions would have increased by only 30%. The latter isn't the case. What is the primary cause is the increased living standard in China.
Industry didn't start moving to China until the very end of the 1970s, and initially it most mostly light assembly work, especially toys and clothes. That began after Dung Xiao Ping took power in 1976. The really serious moves in heavy industry didn't build up until the 1990s. Europe still did most of its own heavy industrial work until then. I assume you very badly failed maths if you think a 30% reduction in Europe should in any way relate to the percentage increase in China. Not only was their starting point quite different and their population much higher, but they have also developed from a rather poor country, to one with a middle class bigger than the whole of Europe's population. Those people use a LOT more energy per capita than they did when poor.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #148 on: November 06, 2022, 09:41:51 pm »
Not only was their starting point quite different and their population much higher, but they have also developed from a rather poor country, to one with a middle class bigger than the whole of Europe's population. Those people use a LOT more energy per capita than they did when poor.
That is exactly my point!
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Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #149 on: November 06, 2022, 09:45:52 pm »
I realise that the power used to change a pixel is very different to the power needed to light those pixels up, but it's still more.
When the "more", including the power consumption of the processor needed to crunch all those numbers to convert a digital data stream into an image, is a few percent of the overall, and individual units' power consumption varies more than that because of environmental differences and possibly even differences in the main supply voltage, the "more" is just not significant enough to consider.

In essence, we're talking about approximated, noisy numbers across individual units and use cases here, so a few watts here or there is within the noise, insignificant.

I am not concerned with whether it's significant or not, just whether it is. When arguments discussions of this sort break out it's important to be correct. It is one thing to say "there's a bit more current due to blah but it's not significant" and quite another to say "there is no extra current used".
 


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