Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25214 times)

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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #150 on: November 06, 2022, 09:50:48 pm »
Not only was their starting point quite different and their population much higher, but they have also developed from a rather poor country, to one with a middle class bigger than the whole of Europe's population. Those people use a LOT more energy per capita than they did when poor.
That is exactly my point!
I said "Those two things are not unconnected. A lot of the reduction in Europe is simply heavy industry moving to China. Same CO2 emission, different place.". That is Europe has done little to reduce its CO2 output. Its just happening as part of China's overall CO2 output these days. Apart from some changes to electricity production, which is only 20% to 25% of overall energy use, what has Europe done to truly reduce CO2 output? Its all smoke and mirrors. Obviously China, India and other developing places, have seen massive overall increases in CO2 production, as is their right.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #151 on: November 06, 2022, 09:57:45 pm »
This is because the smaller pixels (8k rather than 4k ones, fitting in the same overall panel dimensions), will in effect, have much bigger borders (relatively speaking).
I.e. Although they can make the pixels ever smaller, the borders, between the pixels, sadly, remain the same size (as I understand it).  Probably due to technological limitations, at the moment.
So, proportionally, that forces (scientifically or mathematically speaking), the space for the smaller pixel to shine through, disproportionately smaller.

Or in other words.  The display brightness, for a given amount of power on a 4k panel, will dramatically fall (be much less efficient), as so much light is lost/wasted, by the borders between the pixels, which HAVE NOT become smaller, because of current technology limitations.

N.B. That was my understanding, by reading up on it.
You got it right.
The signal traces and the transistors for the rows and columns need to be masked black and since the feature size of these printed items on the LCD cannot get any smaller, the active open window pixel region has shrunk.

If said traces weren't masked black, they would be in contact with the LCD fluid manipulating transparency all over the place plus the added capacitance on those traces would also cause the circuit to fail.

The only solution would be if the LCD, both on top and bottom, had a separation layer as these traces and transistors without the black mask are transparent, but the active pixel regions would need to go down to a second layer where it is in contact with the LCD fluid, like a PCB with a via per pixel, where the vias still need to be transparent and LCD fluid proof.  (Also, the materials which make the traces and transistors cannot alter the polarization of the light going through them...)  This would magnify the price of the LCD by an insane amount, but, even the 4k panels would allow a tone more light through and such a designed 8k would probably become more efficient the today's 4k displays.

I would not want to be the one to have to figure out a way to align such a hi-res active-matrix module to it's next layer in the middle, as I'm sure that just the current masks and color stencils must have been a hell to perfect the manufacturing process.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 10:01:38 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #152 on: November 06, 2022, 10:05:33 pm »
This is because the smaller pixels (8k rather than 4k ones, fitting in the same overall panel dimensions), will in effect, have much bigger borders (relatively speaking).
I.e. Although they can make the pixels ever smaller, the borders, between the pixels, sadly, remain the same size (as I understand it).  Probably due to technological limitations, at the moment.
So, proportionally, that forces (scientifically or mathematically speaking), the space for the smaller pixel to shine through, disproportionately smaller.

Or in other words.  The display brightness, for a given amount of power on a 4k panel, will dramatically fall (be much less efficient), as so much light is lost/wasted, by the borders between the pixels, which HAVE NOT become smaller, because of current technology limitations.

N.B. That was my understanding, by reading up on it.
You got it right.
The signal traces and the transistors for the rows and columns need to be masked black and since the feature size of these printed items on the LCD cannot get any smaller, the active open window pixel region has shrunk.

If said traces weren't masked black, they would be in contact with the LCD fluid manipulating transparency all over the place plus the added capacitance on those traces would also cause the circuit to fail.

The only solution would be if the LCD, both on top and bottom, had a separation layer as these traces and transistors without the black mask are transparent, but the active pixel regions would need to go down to a second layer where it is in contact with the LCD fluid, like a PCB with a via per pixel, where the vias still need to be transparent and LCD fluid proof.  (Also, the materials which make the traces and transistors cannot alter the polarization of the light going through them...)  This would magnify the price of the LCD by an insane amount, but, even the 4k panels would allow a tone more light through and such a designed 8k would probably become more efficient the today's 4k displays.

I would not want to be the one to have to figure out a way to align such a hi-res active-matrix module to it's next layer in the middle, as I'm sure that just the current masks and color stencils must have been a hell to perfect the manufacturing process.
You are assuming an LCD display. A lot of the high end 8k displays seem to be OLED, which doesn't have the same issues.

For LCDs, the percentage of screen space taken by pixel to pixel borders has reduced a lot since the early panels. Does anyone have information about how that reduction has been progressing recently. and whether there are considerable reductions still in the pipeline?
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #153 on: November 06, 2022, 10:15:27 pm »
For LCDs, the percentage of screen space taken by pixel to pixel borders has reduced a lot since the early panels. Does anyone have information about how that reduction has been progressing recently. and whether there are considerable reductions still in the pipeline?
Oled has a similar issue as you now need enough current to illuminate the pixel meaning some circuit size is still required.  Also, smaller pixels are less efficient at generating light = more current = a tradeoff you need to make.  Remember, large screen Oled is different from smart-phone AMOled displays.  Efficiency and longevity would vastly improve if we can get a large screen AMOled.

Same goes for QD-OLED, a QD-AMOled would be the gold standard as the entire screen process is just a single process blue pixel with QD phosphor paint for the green and red pixels which have no electrical circuit like the original Oled where you need 3/4 different types of organic dye which need to be energized to glow.


« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 10:18:28 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #154 on: November 06, 2022, 10:37:58 pm »
When arguments discussions of this sort break out it's important to be correct. It is one thing to say "there's a bit more current due to blah but it's not significant" and quite another to say "there is no extra current used".
You're absolutely right, and I fully agree.  (I just read the question at face value, and didn't see the subtext.)
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 10:39:30 pm by Nominal Animal »
 
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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #155 on: November 06, 2022, 10:44:31 pm »
In theory, it could be possible to have a monochrome LCD and a RGB backlight to get color with about 1/3 the power. Some LCDs of that sort have been built, but it's hard to get the LCD fast enough for that to work well.
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Online BrianHG

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #156 on: November 06, 2022, 11:37:16 pm »
In theory, it could be possible to have a monochrome LCD and a RGB backlight to get color with about 1/3 the power. Some LCDs of that sort have been built, but it's hard to get the LCD fast enough for that to work well.
Something I have not considered.  There does exist a 14 ro 12 inch old studio Sony CRT (I think, it may have been Panasonic or Philips) which was a monochrome CRT with a large flat RGB cycling LCD shutter (one big fat pixel) in front to make a color display where the CRT ran at 3x refresh rate.  It had something like 3-4x the display brightness and contrast of color CRTs with better convergence and true bleedless 4:4:4 color resolution used for on-site outdoor proofing in the film industry.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 11:41:37 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #157 on: November 06, 2022, 11:45:13 pm »
This seems to be a REALLY old version (CBS), of a Monochrome to Colour TV method.  Possibly before colour TVs were significantly available.
EDIT: Probably 1951, if the following link, is talking about the same system.

https://eyesofageneration.com/the-story-behind-the-cbs-rcanbc-color-feud-these-screen-shots-are-from-a-co/

« Last Edit: November 06, 2022, 11:49:43 pm by MK14 »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #158 on: November 06, 2022, 11:56:40 pm »
In theory, it could be possible to have a monochrome LCD and a RGB backlight to get color with about 1/3 the power. Some LCDs of that sort have been built, but it's hard to get the LCD fast enough for that to work well.
Something I have not considered.  There does exist a 14 ro 12 inch old studio Sony CRT (I think, it may have been Panasonic or Philips) which was a monochrome CRT with a large flat RGB cycling LCD shutter (one big fat pixel) in front to make a color display where the CRT ran at 3x refresh rate.  It had something like 3-4x the display brightness and contrast of color CRTs with better convergence and true bleedless 4:4:4 color resolution used for on-site outdoor proofing in the film industry.
The color versions of the Tektronix TDS500/600/700 series have exact that system. Unfortunately it doesn't work for me as the colors start to fade into eachother when I move my eye or head. Gives me a headache pretty quick.
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Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #159 on: November 07, 2022, 12:01:29 am »
Doesn't one of the smart meter displays use mono LCD and RGB LEDs? Pretty sure Big Clive took one apart but I can't find it now.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #160 on: November 07, 2022, 03:51:24 am »
Something I have not considered.  There does exist a 14 ro 12 inch old studio Sony CRT (I think, it may have been Panasonic or Philips) which was a monochrome CRT with a large flat RGB cycling LCD shutter (one big fat pixel) in front to make a color display where the CRT ran at 3x refresh rate.  It had something like 3-4x the display brightness and contrast of color CRTs with better convergence and true bleedless 4:4:4 color resolution used for on-site outdoor proofing in the film industry.

Technology Connections did a video about that monitor. I think it was Panasonic. Same tech as the Tektronix Nucolor display, I have a scope with one and it looks fantastic. Full color display with no shadow mask so it's very sharp. It's too bad that technology didn't achieve more widespread use.
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #161 on: November 07, 2022, 04:31:43 am »
Something I have not considered.  There does exist a 14 ro 12 inch old studio Sony CRT (I think, it may have been Panasonic or Philips) which was a monochrome CRT with a large flat RGB cycling LCD shutter (one big fat pixel) in front to make a color display where the CRT ran at 3x refresh rate.  It had something like 3-4x the display brightness and contrast of color CRTs with better convergence and true bleedless 4:4:4 color resolution used for on-site outdoor proofing in the film industry.

Technology Connections did a video about that monitor. I think it was Panasonic. Same tech as the Tektronix Nucolor display, I have a scope with one and it looks fantastic. Full color display with no shadow mask so it's very sharp. It's too bad that technology didn't achieve more widespread use.

Found it, it was a JVC crt.  Here it is, and yes it has digital electronics to accelerate the image.



Anyways, with a 1 channel monochrome LCD and true RGB LEDs powered in sequence, it should work and allow for a far larger aperture for each pixel, even at 8k.  This would save a lot on backlight power.  However, backlights are usually white LED because they are cheaper than R,G,B variants.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 04:40:05 am by BrianHG »
 
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Online coppice

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #162 on: November 07, 2022, 09:47:27 am »
Doesn't one of the smart meter displays use mono LCD and RGB LEDs? Pretty sure Big Clive took one apart but I can't find it now.
There are many pseudo colour segmented LCD displays using a mix of LEDS and colour filters to do very specific things.
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #163 on: November 07, 2022, 09:59:55 am »
Anyways, with a 1 channel monochrome LCD and true RGB LEDs powered in sequence, it should work and allow for a far larger aperture for each pixel, even at 8k.  This would save a lot on backlight power.  However, backlights are usually white LED because they are cheaper than R,G,B variants.

What you're describing is a "blue-phase-mode" LCD and they haven't been commercially used yet, but in theory they would work at higher resolutions.  I think the issue is, to avoid the "rainbow" effect that DLPs use, you would need to get the panel switching at close to 500Hz-1kHz, which implies say sub 1ms transition times for pixels.  Current LCD is around 10-20ms. 
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #164 on: November 07, 2022, 01:55:02 pm »
You got it right.
The signal traces and the transistors for the rows and columns need to be masked black and since the feature size of these printed items on the LCD cannot get any smaller, the active open window pixel region has shrunk.

If said traces weren't masked black, they would be in contact with the LCD fluid manipulating transparency all over the place plus the added capacitance on those traces would also cause the circuit to fail.

The only solution would be if the LCD, both on top and bottom, had a separation layer as these traces and transistors without the black mask are transparent, but the active pixel regions would need to go down to a second layer where it is in contact with the LCD fluid, like a PCB with a via per pixel, where the vias still need to be transparent and LCD fluid proof.  (Also, the materials which make the traces and transistors cannot alter the polarization of the light going through them...)  This would magnify the price of the LCD by an insane amount, but, even the 4k panels would allow a tone more light through and such a designed 8k would probably become more efficient the today's 4k displays.

I would not want to be the one to have to figure out a way to align such a hi-res active-matrix module to it's next layer in the middle, as I'm sure that just the current masks and color stencils must have been a hell to perfect the manufacturing process.

Thanks for the great explanation.   :)

My understanding is that, ignoring arguments as to if 8k is better/useful, as regards human eyesight.  The other big issue, is that most things have NOT been recorded in 8k, by and large.

On the other hand, there is always improved (such as using more AI), image upscaling.  To make the most of existing medias, resolution.

Really, the issue (as regards this thread topic), is the EU creating laws, which potentially limit, progress in some areas.

For example.  I could invent an amazing new vacuum cleaner, which uses high pulsed, charged ions, and a huge vacuum, along with electrostatic .... (sorry, I can't tell you any more details, as you might try to copy my hypothetical, non-existent invention, lol)...and Magic Flux Capacitors.  To clean better than existing Vacuum Cleaners, silently, automatically and fuss free.

But it uses the full 3kW (or whatever the agreed maximum rating in your country is), in its first version.

I would be unable to sell it (to everyone, not just some smaller subset of that area) in the EU (and probably the UK), unless I get the laws changed.  Because of these pesky laws.

Similarly, if a great new TV (panel) type was invented, but its first version, was rather power hungry.  Such as 1kW or even more.  Then it would NOT be legal to sell it, in a number of regions/countries/places.

I don't think that (creating these over-encompassing, too restrictive laws), is necessarily a good thing.

On the other hand, we currently only have the one planet Earth to live on, and it does seem to be suffering from climate change.  So steps to help that situation, makes sense.

I think on balance, they (e.g. EU/UK), should have come up with smarter laws.  Which move people into buying more energy efficient/economic items, while at the same time allowing specialists/professionals/audiophools, to have their stuff and new innovations.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 01:59:15 pm by MK14 »
 

Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #165 on: November 07, 2022, 02:20:40 pm »
Quote
should have come up with smarter laws.  Which move people into buying more energy efficient/economic items

Increase power prices. Oh, that would stiff the poor and the rich wouldn't notice. OK then...

Ration power. Say, 10kWh/day.

Oh, then there would have to be variations depending on size of property, and probably number of people. And it would still stiff the poor who can't afford to flood insulate their 1920s gaff (which they rent anyway).

I don't think we can have laws smart enough to fix anything that isn't trivially black/white. Even killing someone has a number of mitigations and variable outcome. Some wishy-washy and arbitrary "that's approx too big" thing doesn't stand a chance.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #166 on: November 07, 2022, 02:22:21 pm »
If you liked the Technology Connections JVC YouTube Video, did you know he did another one (an extras), a part 2 if you like, on his other channel?

 

Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #167 on: November 07, 2022, 02:27:30 pm »
Increase power prices. Oh, that would stiff the poor and the rich wouldn't notice. OK then...

Ration power. Say, 10kWh/day.

Oh, then there would have to be variations depending on size of property, and probably number of people. And it would still stiff the poor who can't afford to flood insulate their 1920s gaff (which they rent anyway).

I don't think we can have laws smart enough to fix anything that isn't trivially black/white. Even killing someone has a number of mitigations and variable outcome. Some wishy-washy and arbitrary "that's approx too big" thing doesn't stand a chance.

That is not really what I meant by smarter laws.  What I meant was that the new law, is designed to encourage people to use lower energy consuming TVs.  But still allows, other TVs, to continue to use, possibly more power, if necessary.

E.g. (Taking Lamps as an example), strongly encouraging LED lamps, but still allowing other types of bulbs, to be bought and sold.
Rather than outright banning things, because they are too lazy (or whatever the explanation is), to do it in a more robust way.  Which doesn't infringe on peoples lives and their rights.

I.e. If I want to go out and buy an 8k TV, in a years time, I should be able to.  NOT banned by law from doing so, because it uses 20 watts (or whatever the amount is), more than what the EU/UK considered, sensible for a 4k TV.
 

Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #168 on: November 07, 2022, 04:49:15 pm »
How do you 'strongly encourage' without mandating? That kind of thing didn't work during the pandemic, and if people can't manage that when lives could depend on it what chance do you have when their entertainment is at stake?
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #169 on: November 07, 2022, 05:16:26 pm »
How do you 'strongly encourage' without mandating? That kind of thing didn't work during the pandemic, and if people can't manage that when lives could depend on it what chance do you have when their entertainment is at stake?

Designing such laws, (Government/EU funded/created Adverts), and things.  Would indeed (probably) need the efforts of a huge team(s), of people.  With various skills/backgrounds and abilities.  So I can't when making a 5 minute (wild estimate) forum post, really on my own, do the topic justice, and specify such new laws/policies/adverts etc.

BUT, the current climate change situation, could be a very serious World/Earth-wide event, forcing extremely drastic actions.  But such discussions, would be (in my opinion), completely off-topic from this thread.

Also the EU need to be careful.  Because if such laws are taken to extremes.  Such as banning meat (because of its carbon footprint), hugely eliminating/restricting cars, again because of their carbon footprint.
Somewhat banning flying, unless extremely important, and only for the very top people.
Severely restricting electronic items, to reduce their carbon foot-prints.

Final example, banning all central-heating and hot-water systems, to reduce the EU's carbon footprint.

It could cause significant civil unrest.

How far and what steps, the EU and the rest of the world, are prepared to take.  To resolve the current climate situation, is not 100% clear or even 90% or 80%.

So it could start with vacuum cleaners by law, having reduced maximum power capabilities, and current 8k TVs being outlawed.  But later mean that even basics like some foods (dare I mention meat), being seriously curtailed.
E.g. Rather big extra taxes, on sales of meats, air-flight tickets, car purchases, car fuels, and many other goods.

So I'm sort of torn, between wanting the climate crisis to be resolved and not losing a lot of my or our, current freedoms.
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #170 on: November 07, 2022, 05:16:38 pm »
Perhaps you could ban 8K on anything below say 70" screen size.  That just doesn't work in the majority of living rooms, but those who are really keen to have a ridiculously large screen at ultra high resolution can still get one and pay the premium. 

Meanwhile anything 40" and below for 4K could be restricted unless it is classified as a monitor (there is already a definition for tax purposes - usually it is without anything but computer video inputs, no RC controller, no speakers, no smart functions etc...)

I suspect the market will self regulate though.  8K will be far too expensive to make it into the consumer space for some time.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #171 on: November 07, 2022, 05:23:40 pm »
Perhaps you could ban 8K on anything below say 70" screen size.  That just doesn't work in the majority of living rooms, but those who are really keen to have a ridiculously large screen at ultra high resolution can still get one and pay the premium.

The problem with that, is that early (affordable) 8k TVs, may only be viable, in sizes, well below 70" screen sizes.

E.g. A while back, OLED's, were only available for purchase, at VERY small screen sizes.  I can't remember exactly, but it was something like 12" (I think Techmoan's video channel, obtained one of the smallest/first ones, for filming), by Sony, if I remember correctly.  Also, it was extremely expensive at the time.
So if there had been a rule, that only 70" and bigger, OLED TVs are allowed.  Then that would have seriously hindered OLED TVs, coming to the EU, for a long while, at least.

EDIT: This seems to be the video I was referring to:

« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 05:26:26 pm by MK14 »
 

Online PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #172 on: November 07, 2022, 05:34:38 pm »
How do you 'strongly encourage' without mandating? That kind of thing didn't work during the pandemic, and if people can't manage that when lives could depend on it what chance do you have when their entertainment is at stake?

Designing such laws, (Government/EU funded/created Adverts), and things.  Would indeed (probably) need the efforts of a huge team(s), of people.  With various skills/backgrounds and abilities.  So I can't when making a 5 minute (wild estimate) forum post, really on my own, do the topic justice, and specify such new laws/policies/adverts etc.

Yes, I am not asking you to make up some law on the spot. I am pointing out that laws mandate things. 'Strongly recommend' and similar are not laws. See, for instance, the Highway Code where there is 'should' for strong recommendations and 'must' for laws, and generally the 'should's are given lip service by many drivers, if they can even be arsed to manage that.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #173 on: November 07, 2022, 06:06:11 pm »
How do you 'strongly encourage' without mandating? That kind of thing didn't work during the pandemic, and if people can't manage that when lives could depend on it what chance do you have when their entertainment is at stake?

Tax inefficient items, use some of the revenue to subsidize higher efficiency products.
 
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Offline MadScientist

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #174 on: November 07, 2022, 06:08:10 pm »
Oh no. Some power hungry TVs which are needlessly high resolution won't be for sale to the tiny slice of the market which spends excessive amounts of money on them. I will have a good cry over this.

And when they come for you?  When some moron limits your tea kettle to 500 watts?

I think that unlikely.

Really!  Maybe not that specific thing, and it's a kettle by the way, not a tea kettle!  Tea pot and kettle, two things ;)
This is the problem with the EU, it's the nanny state gone mad!  No, in the grand scheme a restriction on 8K TV's is not the end of the world, but gradually losing more and more freedom of choice is. As per the old phrase, it's the thin end of the wedge. And the excuse used is the climate change crisis, which is BS.  The climate is in continual change, nothing humanity can do about it.  CO2 is the gas of life, converted by greenery to oxygen!  And remember this, every living, oxygen breathing life form exhales CO2, so what next, a breathing restriction?!

The uk is the ultimate nanny state , the EU has a long way to go.
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