Author Topic: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!  (Read 25208 times)

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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #175 on: November 07, 2022, 06:26:28 pm »
Yes, I am not asking you to make up some law on the spot. I am pointing out that laws mandate things. 'Strongly recommend' and similar are not laws. See, for instance, the Highway Code where there is 'should' for strong recommendations and 'must' for laws, and generally the 'should's are given lip service by many drivers, if they can even be arsed to manage that.

Well, I'll give you an example.  Let's say the car has just been invented in the UK/EU for the first time.  But they are (rightly), worried about possible accident damage/injuries and worse.

So, there are two solutions (A and B):

A:  A new law, mandating a man walks at up to 4 MPH, carrying a red flag.  MUST walk in front of all moving vehicles, to warn other road users, of the upcoming dangers.
I.e. The so called, 'Red Flag Acts'.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locomotive_Acts

B:  New laws, recommendations and so on.  On vehicle safety.  So that Zebra crossings, Traffic-lights, efficient car brakes on all wheels, Crumple zones in cars, seat belts, collapsible steering columns, etc.  Driving tests, public information films, on how to drive safely and handle the roads safely as other users, etc.

I'm essentially saying that the EU, goes for option A, the so called lazy option.

Rather than spending the time and effort, sorting out option B.  Which allows people to keep their civil liberties, and enjoy life to a nice extent.

Whereas option A, means you might as well walk, journey time wise, approximately.  Option A, could well jeopardize the development of the car markets.

So in summary.  You can have any 8k TV in the EU you like, so long as it has a 4k panel in it, or a man stands in front of it, carrying a big flag, that says 4k (MPH) on it.

EDIT: Please take into account.  I'm presenting an exaggerated, or extremely exaggerated view/concept, in an attempt to convey the possible issues, with the way the UK/EU, create these laws/regulations and recommendations, in the first place.  But it is tricky or very tricky, to explain these concepts.  So, please don't take this as a direct political viewpoint.

E.g. There are many, many good things the UK/EU have done, laws/regulations wise.  So it is all too easy to nitpick, because some people, don't like all of them (the laws), and can show counter-examples, where they go wrong.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 06:50:15 pm by MK14 »
 

Online tom66

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #176 on: November 07, 2022, 09:14:04 pm »
Yes, you're presenting an extremely exaggerated viewpoint, to the point of it being wrong. 

The EU is definitely more (b) than (a), almost to a fault, because some of the regulations produced are so damn complicated that you need an entire team of lawyers with engineering degrees to understand whether the regulations apply to you.

It's the UK that produces far too much broad, unthinking legislation.  Take, for example the Psychoactive Substances Bill which intended to ban anything the government hadn't thought of banning yet that could make you high.  Because that's apparently a great moral need.  After its first reading in the House, it was pointed out to the government that it would ban tea and coffee as psychoactive substances. (Needless to say the position of banning the harmless-to-others self-use of drugs is a gross violation of one's personal rights, but that's a different discussion entirely.)  Or, the "No Porn Law", err, sorry, the "Online Safety Bill", which would require ISPs to filter out content at the routing layer, because it might offend some religious parents should their little angels find themselves a little too curious. 

It's not to say the EU hasn't done (a) on occasion, the cookie law being a good example.  But they're *definitely* much more technocratic.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #177 on: November 07, 2022, 09:56:31 pm »
Yes, you're presenting an extremely exaggerated viewpoint, to the point of it being wrong. 

The EU is definitely more (b) than (a), almost to a fault, because some of the regulations produced are so damn complicated that you need an entire team of lawyers with engineering degrees to understand whether the regulations apply to you.

It's the UK that produces far too much broad, unthinking legislation.  Take, for example the Psychoactive Substances Bill which intended to ban anything the government hadn't thought of banning yet that could make you high.  Because that's apparently a great moral need.  After its first reading in the House, it was pointed out to the government that it would ban tea and coffee as psychoactive substances. (Needless to say the position of banning the harmless-to-others self-use of drugs is a gross violation of one's personal rights, but that's a different discussion entirely.)  Or, the "No Porn Law", err, sorry, the "Online Safety Bill", which would require ISPs to filter out content at the routing layer, because it might offend some religious parents should their little angels find themselves a little too curious. 

It's not to say the EU hasn't done (a) on occasion, the cookie law being a good example.  But they're *definitely* much more technocratic.

Thanks for replying.  Point by point, I agree with what you say.
I am presenting an extremely exaggerated view point.  But the main intention was to illustrate a point, rather than make what I say wrong.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 11:25:27 pm by MK14 »
 

Offline vad

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #178 on: November 08, 2022, 04:18:41 am »
To summarize several threads. According EU bureaucrats, an ideal 8K TV would have a 4K panel, be powered via USB-C port, have a natural banana shape, not that rectangular nonsense, and display pop-up windows requiring viewers to click “Accept All Cookies” button every time new content is played.
 
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Offline Ed.Kloonk

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #179 on: November 08, 2022, 04:25:11 am »
To summarize several threads. According EU bureaucrats, an ideal 8K TV would have a 4K panel, be powered via USB-C port, have a natural banana shape, not that rectangular nonsense, and display pop-up windows requiring viewers to click “Accept All Cookies” button every time new content is played.

[mind blown]
iratus parum formica
 
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Online Nominal Animal

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #180 on: November 08, 2022, 04:54:39 am »
According to FlatpanelsHD, the maximum power for the default picture mode for LCD, OLED, and microLED 4K and 8K TVs will be as follows from March 2023 onwards:

   Size  Max. power for 4K/8K TVs default picture mode
    40"    48 W
    42"    53 W
    48"    66 W
    55"    84 W
    65"   112 W
    75"   141 W
    77"   148 W
    83"   164 W
    85"   169 W
    88"   178 W

It does not limit ownership, but does limit the sales.  Also, the TV can still have higher-power modes, as long as selecting them informs the user about the increased power use.

Hmm.  I still don't have an opinion on this, because I do not intend to own a 8K TV (or display), and thus it does not impact me personally.
 
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Offline eti

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #181 on: November 08, 2022, 05:22:24 am »
Let’s ban the EUrobollocks from interfering in our UK lives. They’re a joke. The only brussels I want are the yummy green ones. 😋😋
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #182 on: November 08, 2022, 11:47:42 am »
Quote
According to FlatpanelsHD, the maximum power for the default picture mode for LCD, OLED, and microLED 4K and 8K TVs will be

I am broadly OK with this. First because power usage is an important issue (my current GPU, for instance, was chosen to be a bit old tech - despite being a game player - because it was much lower power than the latest ones, and similarly my monitor choice was partly based on power consumption), so that's encouragement to the manufacturers to try and keep it low. But, at the same time, if you don't care about that you can put them in non-EU mode and roast your eyeballs or peel paint off the rear wall.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #183 on: November 08, 2022, 12:37:26 pm »
Yes, you're presenting an extremely exaggerated viewpoint, to the point of it being wrong.

I've had time to make a clearer explanation as to what my thinking was.  It seems to boil down to my personal political opinions, thoughts and ideas.  Which I'm not discussing here for at least three somewhat obvious reasons.

  • I don't want to publicly discuss my political stuff
  • Political discussions are largely banned (on this forum), and a bad idea as they can cause trouble, as well
  • I appreciate I'm just one single individual.  Who is NOT speaking for others, and may be wrong on various things, just like other real life individuals

But on a more technical note, I can say some things.  Which are more technical facts about this 8k TV thing, and other EU decisions.  As they are scientific, rather than political.

I sometimes lose the first few seconds of sound in various video sources.  Because the EU mandated that speaker systems, have to forcibly automatically go into standby/sleep mode to save power.  Which on a computer system, can be a real pain.  Because that can also effect, the PCs, ability to send warning noises (in theory, somehow I don't seem to have that problem in practice at the moment, but use to, a long while ago), until the speakers eventually turn back on.
Hence I sometimes have to wind Youtube videos back to the start, as a result.

So (politically speaking, but leaving out my fuller political ideals), I'm convinced the quality of some items, big (e.g. cars or 8k TVs) and small (see speakers complaint above), is hurt, by some of these forced regulations.

 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #184 on: November 08, 2022, 01:58:12 pm »
EU: Failing socialist command and control gov
TV: Threw mine out the window in 1972.
Do the sem, save a lot of energy and your time!
Energy sav: Ban politicians and lawyers, just hot air

J


An Internet Dinosaur...
 
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Offline Miyuki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2022, 02:41:31 pm »
According to FlatpanelsHD, the maximum power for the default picture mode for LCD, OLED, and microLED 4K and 8K TVs will be as follows from March 2023 onwards:

   Size  Max. power for 4K/8K TVs default picture mode
    40"    48 W
    42"    53 W
    48"    66 W
    55"    84 W
    65"   112 W
    75"   141 W
    77"   148 W
    83"   164 W
    85"   169 W
    88"   178 W

It does not limit ownership, but does limit the sales.  Also, the TV can still have higher-power modes, as long as selecting them informs the user about the increased power use.

Hmm.  I still don't have an opinion on this, because I do not intend to own a 8K TV (or display), and thus it does not impact me personally.
Does this mean that it is a hard limit per screen size and the only problem is that 8k cant fit in whereas FHD has no problem?
Then it is all fine and manufacturers must try harder
Even when those numbers seem low when I compare them to my screen what has stated Maximum: 120 W Typical: < 75 W
And I use 3 of them  8)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2022, 04:06:31 pm »
Quote
Because the EU mandated that speaker systems, have to forcibly automatically go into standby/sleep mode to save power.

I looked at this, which I think is the appropriate regulation, and it seems to me that the speakers should provide a power management function and/or be exempt. Additionally, if it's waiting for sound data in order to 'start up' then it's not in stand-by so isn't required to (effectively) turn off.

Are the speakers battery powered? Could be the manufacturer just wants to extend the battery life to make the adverts look better than the competition.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #187 on: November 08, 2022, 04:33:22 pm »
Quote
Because the EU mandated that speaker systems, have to forcibly automatically go into standby/sleep mode to save power.

I looked at this, which I think is the appropriate regulation, and it seems to me that the speakers should provide a power management function and/or be exempt. Additionally, if it's waiting for sound data in order to 'start up' then it's not in stand-by so isn't required to (effectively) turn off.

Are the speakers battery powered? Could be the manufacturer just wants to extend the battery life to make the adverts look better than the competition.

Thanks for that link.  No, they are mains powered.

There are apparently lots of threads about it.  The following link, is for rather similar/identical speakers, to the ones, I'm using in the short-term.

https://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?297558-Any-ideas-how-to-prevent-my-speakers-from-entering-a-sleep-state

Quote
Right now I have a pair of Creative Gigaworks T20 Series II speakers, and they seem great, except for one annoyance: after 10 minutes of inactivity they enter a sleep state, meaning I miss a lot of important chat alerts and such.

Quote
Thanks for your input Dobbi! I believe though that this is a hardware limitation — it's my case, actually. Due to European regulations, speakers have to have a built-in sleep state they enter when inactive. It has two great problem in my case: 1. When the volume is too low, for instance when I don't want to disturb my roommates, the speakers do not pick-up on the sound, and go sleeping after 10 min. I then have to put the volume back up and down. 2. When waking up, the speakers pop, preventing me from using music as an alarm — as the pop sound is loud.

I've not searched much into the problem yet, but I do expect a solution along the lines of sending every now and then a loud "fake" sound. Sound volume would then have to be on a per-application basis, so that MPD would play softly, but the fake, inaudible sound would play loudly.

Cheers!

N.B. Other electronics item(s), have also been giving me similar problems.  To the point that entire sets of things, are malfunctioning, because of these constant interrupts.  I haven't fully got to the bottom of it, to 100% confirm that is the cause/issue, but I suspect it is.

A good chance to throw in an example of so called 'Smart' rather than 'Lazy' laws.

Afflicted devices, should also be allowed to have (permanent) defeat options.  So that the mode can be disabled, to allow complicated setups to work reliably. SMART laws, would be designed to allow this.

Non-smart/lazy laws, DON'T.  Hence issues like speakers that switch off, and hinder computer audio/sound usages, other significant equipment, brought to its knees, because of this issue (different devices).  8k TVs that may become illegal to purchase in the EU. Etc.

In fairness, reducing stand-by power consumption, as long as reliability, usage, features, long-term life expectancy etc, of the unit are NOT too adversely effected.  Saving power is good.  But when it makes all sorts of items, potentially illegal to buy (actually sell is the illegal bit), in the EU.  It makes some people wonder, if the EU is doing the right thing, and coming up with sensible, WELL WRITTEN laws and regulations.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #188 on: November 08, 2022, 04:54:15 pm »
That workaround is something I thought of when I first read your post - great minds! But that's a product design failure, I think, and it shouldn't be required. I'd be inclined to return them as not suitable for the purpose (and, in fact, I returned a Samsung monitor for a similar issue).
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #189 on: November 08, 2022, 05:04:43 pm »
That workaround is something I thought of when I first read your post - great minds! But that's a product design failure, I think, and it shouldn't be required. I'd be inclined to return them as not suitable for the purpose (and, in fact, I returned a Samsung monitor for a similar issue).

Some good points, thanks.   :)

It arguably is a design failure, just like you, and possibly the link I posted before says.  For other reasons, and because at low sound levels (when you want piece and quiet etc), it can be very reluctant to even wake up at all.

My feeling is it is perfectly reasonable for there to be TV buffs (people who are REALLY into their TVs, and want to get really good ones, even if it costs quite a lot of money).  So, they should be free to go to and buy 8k TVs, if they want.  I.e. NOT prevented from doing so, from possible new EU rules, which have not been written well enough, to cater for practicable 8k TVs power consumption.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #190 on: November 08, 2022, 05:45:40 pm »
I sometimes lose the first few seconds of sound in various video sources.  Because the EU mandated that speaker systems, have to forcibly automatically go into standby/sleep mode to save power.  Which on a computer system, can be a real pain.  Because that can also effect, the PCs, ability to send warning noises (in theory, somehow I don't seem to have that problem in practice at the moment, but use to, a long while ago), until the speakers eventually turn back on.
Hence I sometimes have to wind Youtube videos back to the start, as a result.
But that’s just a poor implementation in the audio system.

Auto-off has been common in active studio monitors (the powered speakers in recording studios) for ages and ages, and works fine. I have some Jamo active speakers from the 90s which wake from standby within a fraction of a second.

Part of it is how long the speakers decide to wait between applying power to the power amp and connecting it to the speakers via relays (or enabling the output on a class D amp chip).

Another source of delays isn’t the speakers, but the sources. Especially with digital connections, where there are multiple data formats, and the decoder has to wait long enough to actually identify the format in use. (And some decoders, like my Denon home theater received, audibly pop when changing formats).

HDCP (the encryption on HDMI) contributes to delays on HDMI. The handshaking adds some delay.

So in reality, I doubt the EU rules have much to do with it. Many factors have been conspiring for years and years to slow down picture and audio connection setup, each alone adding a negligible amount, but in total an uncomfortable delay.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #191 on: November 08, 2022, 06:06:09 pm »
I sometimes lose the first few seconds of sound in various video sources.  Because the EU mandated that speaker systems, have to forcibly automatically go into standby/sleep mode to save power.  Which on a computer system, can be a real pain.  Because that can also effect, the PCs, ability to send warning noises (in theory, somehow I don't seem to have that problem in practice at the moment, but use to, a long while ago), until the speakers eventually turn back on.
Hence I sometimes have to wind Youtube videos back to the start, as a result.
But that’s just a poor implementation in the audio system.

Auto-off has been common in active studio monitors (the powered speakers in recording studios) for ages and ages, and works fine. I have some Jamo active speakers from the 90s which wake from standby within a fraction of a second.

Part of it is how long the speakers decide to wait between applying power to the power amp and connecting it to the speakers via relays (or enabling the output on a class D amp chip).

Another source of delays isn’t the speakers, but the sources. Especially with digital connections, where there are multiple data formats, and the decoder has to wait long enough to actually identify the format in use. (And some decoders, like my Denon home theater received, audibly pop when changing formats).

HDCP (the encryption on HDMI) contributes to delays on HDMI. The handshaking adds some delay.

So in reality, I doubt the EU rules have much to do with it. Many factors have been conspiring for years and years to slow down picture and audio connection setup, each alone adding a negligible amount, but in total an uncomfortable delay.

That's a good point, as regards speaker systems.  (I'm guessing, since I haven't opened up the speakers, or seen a schematic for them) I imagine, there are some hefty capacitors in the speakers/amplifiers, which were perhaps designed BEFORE the EU regulations existed or came to be valid.
So, the possibly old design couldn't cope with switching on very quickly.  But there are a number of other possible reasons for the delay, which as you said, can be largely designed out of equipment, usually.

But in the future, they can sort problems like that out (I think the speakers in question, first came out around 2014), then everyone can be happy.

Standby power consumption, is probably a good example, of where the normal consumer.  Is probably completely clueless, as regards that concept, and may have little idea on what various items, standby power consumption might be.
 

Offline KaneTW

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #192 on: November 08, 2022, 11:36:43 pm »


For the speakers, just get pro speakers and a pro audio interface. I use Yamaha HS7s and an Audient id44 and it works reliably.
 
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Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #193 on: November 09, 2022, 12:00:10 am »
For the speakers, just get pro speakers and a pro audio interface. I use Yamaha HS7s and an Audient id44 and it works reliably.

Thanks for the suggestion.  It looks good.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #194 on: November 09, 2022, 12:11:44 am »
Looking at a typical 8k TV review/recommendation website, such as here:

https://parker-marker.com/blogs/electronics/television-review/is-an-8k-tv-worth-it-heres-our-expert-answer/

They seem to be around 65" to 85" (inches).  At 85", there begins to be a significant argument, that the extra pixel density, is needed, to stop the screen appearing pixelated and/or worse due to lack of pixels.  Depending on viewing distances and quality of TV picture, the buyers are looking for.

So, on the one hand it makes me understand the need for 8k TVs, if people are going to buy TVs that size.  But also makes me think the EU, maybe has a point with the legislation, because as TVs become so big, and less efficient (because of going to 8k).  The electricity consumed, is going to be a lot more significant.  I.e. considerably more power will be used, compared to a much more modestly sized TV, of around 4k.
 

Offline vad

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #195 on: November 09, 2022, 04:27:28 am »
If 8K TVs are banned in EU, is it still legal to buy four slim bezel 4K TVs and arrange them in 2x2 panel? Can a law abiding citizen own multiple TV sets in Europe?
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #196 on: November 09, 2022, 07:35:55 am »
That's a good point, as regards speaker systems.  (I'm guessing, since I haven't opened up the speakers, or seen a schematic for them) I imagine, there are some hefty capacitors in the speakers/amplifiers, which were perhaps designed BEFORE the EU regulations existed or came to be valid.
So, the possibly old design couldn't cope with switching on very quickly.  But there are a number of other possible reasons for the delay, which as you said, can be largely designed out of equipment, usually.
But as I said, many old designs can turn on quickly.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #197 on: November 09, 2022, 07:37:37 am »
Looking at a typical 8k TV review/recommendation website, such as here:

https://parker-marker.com/blogs/electronics/television-review/is-an-8k-tv-worth-it-heres-our-expert-answer/

They seem to be around 65" to 85" (inches).  At 85", there begins to be a significant argument, that the extra pixel density, is needed, to stop the screen appearing pixelated and/or worse due to lack of pixels.  Depending on viewing distances and quality of TV picture, the buyers are looking for.

So, on the one hand it makes me understand the need for 8k TVs, if people are going to buy TVs that size.  But also makes me think the EU, maybe has a point with the legislation, because as TVs become so big, and less efficient (because of going to 8k).  The electricity consumed, is going to be a lot more significant.  I.e. considerably more power will be used, compared to a much more modestly sized TV, of around 4k.

But how many people are even going to want to have a TV that large? That's rare even here in the USA where everything is already generally bigger than in Europe. I can't help but think this legislation is pointless.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #198 on: November 09, 2022, 07:40:21 am »
For the speakers, just get pro speakers and a pro audio interface. I use Yamaha HS7s and an Audient id44 and it works reliably.

But that's ~~$1200 worth of gear, that's well beyond what most people are going to want to spend on that sort of thing, I'm pretty sure that's more than I've spent collectively on audio equipment throughout my entire life.
 

Offline MK14

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Re: The EU is banning 8K TV's!!!
« Reply #199 on: November 09, 2022, 03:32:57 pm »
Looking at a typical 8k TV review/recommendation website, such as here:

https://parker-marker.com/blogs/electronics/television-review/is-an-8k-tv-worth-it-heres-our-expert-answer/

They seem to be around 65" to 85" (inches).  At 85", there begins to be a significant argument, that the extra pixel density, is needed, to stop the screen appearing pixelated and/or worse due to lack of pixels.  Depending on viewing distances and quality of TV picture, the buyers are looking for.

So, on the one hand it makes me understand the need for 8k TVs, if people are going to buy TVs that size.  But also makes me think the EU, maybe has a point with the legislation, because as TVs become so big, and less efficient (because of going to 8k).  The electricity consumed, is going to be a lot more significant.  I.e. considerably more power will be used, compared to a much more modestly sized TV, of around 4k.

But how many people are even going to want to have a TV that large? That's rare even here in the USA where everything is already generally bigger than in Europe. I can't help but think this legislation is pointless.

I thought in the US, Home Cinema Rooms (Boys Sheds/theater rooms/home theaters), were a thing.  Where they would have significantly big TVs in such rooms.  But I'm NOT sure what the sizes of those TVs, would actually be.

But me thinking that, is much more based on watching US based, Movies/YouTube-Videos and so on, rather than my real-life experiences.  I.e. It wouldn't be the first time, I got things completely wrong about America.  Because I tend to base such knowledge, too much on Movies or Videos I've seen, and perhaps jumped to, too many (possibly incorrect) conclusions.

 


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